00:00:00 --- log: started forth/18.07.03 00:04:16 --- quit: dave0 (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 00:04:42 --- join: dave0 (~dave@207.213.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 00:19:19 --- quit: Keshl (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 00:31:40 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 00:37:08 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.185.149.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 00:52:16 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 01:17:22 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 01:45:34 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:46:09 --- join: karswell_ (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 01:47:18 --- quit: dave0 (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:36:32 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@90.193.60.144) joined #forth 02:36:32 --- quit: ncv_ (Changing host) 02:36:32 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:39:17 --- quit: ncv (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 02:43:08 --- quit: ncv_ (Remote host closed the connection) 02:45:00 --- join: dave0 (~dave@207.213.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 02:56:17 --- join: ncv (~neceve@2a02:c7d:c5c9:a900:1ec6:932f:1b02:d27e) joined #forth 02:56:17 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 02:56:17 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:59:33 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 02:59:58 --- join: ncv (~neceve@2a02:c7d:c5c9:a900:1ec6:932f:1b02:d27e) joined #forth 02:59:58 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 02:59:58 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:09:47 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 03:17:26 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:23:40 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.218) joined #forth 03:23:41 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 03:23:41 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 03:25:07 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@2a02:c7d:c5c9:a900:1ec6:932f:1b02:d27e) joined #forth 03:25:07 --- quit: ncv_ (Changing host) 03:25:07 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:25:54 --- quit: ncv (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 03:28:07 --- quit: ncv_ (Remote host closed the connection) 03:28:26 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@2a02:c7d:c5c9:a900:6eaf:6ef7:3b81:d5f6) joined #forth 03:28:26 --- quit: ncv_ (Changing host) 03:28:26 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 03:47:16 --- quit: ThirtyOne32nds (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 03:53:17 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 04:19:48 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:47:47 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:53:44 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 04:54:59 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.192) joined #forth 04:55:00 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 04:55:00 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 05:09:53 --- quit: wa5qjh (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 05:40:53 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 05:53:30 --- join: ThirtyOne32nds (~rtmanpage@230.sub-174-204-14.myvzw.com) joined #forth 07:29:53 --- quit: karswell_ (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 07:37:40 --- join: tadni (~tadni@71-11-142-172.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) joined #forth 07:37:59 --- join: tadni_ (~tadni@71-11-142-172.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com) joined #forth 08:09:41 --- quit: tadni (Quit: Leaving) 09:13:09 --- quit: tadni_ (Remote host closed the connection) 09:24:50 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 09:36:32 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-100-202.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 09:50:56 --- quit: ncv_ (Remote host closed the connection) 09:54:32 --- part: courtesi left #forth 10:58:08 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 10:58:25 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 11:04:24 so, I thought I was clever by implementing a module system so you can say "import foo" (or something like that), and what you get is a word "foo" in your local vocabulary which is a vocabulary of words loaded from the foo module 11:04:30 but the problem is that I have a lot of name collisions 11:05:31 like, for example, say I had an "array" module, with a word "array" for defining an array. then "array" the defining word collides with "array" the module vocabulary 11:06:45 crc: you asked me what instructions I have managed to boil down in an dual stack machine architectur. 11:09:29 crc: basically AND XOR 1LeftBitRotate 1+ @ ! DUP DROP SWAP SKipifZero >R R> EXIT 11:10:24 crc: it is an 16 bit cell arch and if the first/uppermost three nybbles are zero then it is an instruction, otherwise it is an call to that address. 11:29:20 --- join: Labu (~Labu@labu.pck.nerim.net) joined #forth 11:29:58 Hello 11:53:04 zy]x[yz: I think the "traditional" solution is just to have different vocabularies (dictionaries) and switch between them. i am not sure of the value in bringing a word from one vocab/dict into another (aka import) unless you're creating new DSL vocab for a specific task, etc. 11:59:37 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:00:52 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 12:03:10 I think you misunderstood. I /do/ have different vocabularies 12:03:28 basically, I've split my vocabularies up into different source files 12:04:28 the problem is that when you want to have visibility to the word "array" for defining arrays, you have to put the "array" vocabulary on the search order stack 12:05:07 both of those words are called "array", and I can't think of a better way to name either of them except to just make the vocabulary's word a filename with the extension included 12:10:49 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 12:11:07 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 12:32:34 --- join: tusj (~tusj@185.176.244.72) joined #forth 13:23:15 --- join: pierpa (5fea3cea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.234.60.234) joined #forth 14:48:35 ok. I understood that up until the point you talked about filenames. /shrug/ 15:11:55 bluekelp: I think what's he's saying is that he has a vocabularly named array (let's assume it resides in the Forth vocabulary). And IN the array vocabulary, he has a word named array that does something else. 15:12:11 So if Forth is the only active vocabulary, then if you type "array" it will find the vocabularly word. 15:12:17 Making it part of the search. 15:12:35 If you then type "array" again, it will search the array vocabulary and find the word array defined in there, that does something entirely different. 15:54:53 so what is the problem? swapping/forgetting the array vocabulary out? 15:56:04 if that is the problem, why not spend a bit in the dictionary header to say "start of vocabulary" or "vocabulary activating word" and have that on the array vocabulary word in the Forth vocabulary? 15:56:52 the problem is that you probably want your local definitions to come first in the search order, so your local alias of the vocabulary will come before words in that vocabulary 15:58:56 bluekelp, of everything I've described, the part about the filename should be the easiest to understand 15:59:17 right, so you want the functionality of CURRENT (the word) split into two, one is start search here and the other add new defnitions here. Or am I misunderstanding something? 15:59:33 I already have that 16:00:04 I honestly can't understand how this is hard to get 16:00:52 you write some code to manage arrays. you want it to be organized, so you put it in a vocabulary that you call "array" 16:01:10 right 16:02:11 in most cases you would probably make it visible like this: array also local definitions ( where local is the current vocabulary you are populating ) 16:02:31 but you have that name conflict between the 'array' word in the 'array' vocabulary. 16:02:36 yes 16:03:09 and the 'array' vocabulary itself. Is it too much to have: use_vocab array also local definitions 16:03:29 and have the use_vocab the one that switches which vocabs are being used? 16:03:33 meh 16:04:31 I guess this isn't a problem in traditional forth because I think vocabularies always went into a special vocab that was always last in the search order 16:04:44 but I don't like tbat eithet 16:05:01 jesus christ these touchscreen kehboards are the worst 16:05:06 this basically does a bit of namespacing/contextualizes the use of the text string 'array' in the forth source. 16:05:56 zy]x[yz: you using one that pretends to be an qwerty one? I have had better luck using old mobile phone style entry method on touch screens. 16:06:11 yeah 16:06:37 yeah those are quite shitty 16:07:21 too easy to 'fat-finger' the wrong 'key' 16:07:42 I'm pretty sure it's just broken in connectbot too 16:07:50 why? because to damn small buttons 16:08:05 there have been times that I've seen it enter letters on tbe other side of the kegboard 16:08:33 oh then it is just crappy virtual button debouncing. 16:09:03 (oh you pressed a button there at Gordon Flash speed, yeah?) 16:09:23 might be, but I'm almost certain I've seen just a straight up software error before 16:09:42 that too 16:09:42 like I had it in a state once where I could press f over and over again 16:09:50 like it just dod it there actually 16:09:54 that f came out as a u 16:10:23 I'g almost 16:10:51 blame it on a baud rate mismatch except tbat it isn't 1992 16:11:41 or 1982 for that matter 16:12:09 look the point is the year doesn't end in a 2 16:13:26 "why is tech still so shitty" is? 16:14:19 anyway back to forth: there are things like this problem that I just do not get, and when I try to explain them everybody looks at me funny, which leads me to believe I'm missing something very fundamental 16:15:44 naah, it is just problem of communication. That is, how hard it is to explain what the problem is. 16:16:47 often people think "oh, he must be having problem Y" when in fact you have problem X and are looking for a solution for it. 16:17:51 it also irritates me no end 16:18:07 that is being the asker in such situations 16:19:19 But as you have described and I think what the problem is it is the collision of namespaces of vocabularies and the words in them, no? 16:22:38 yeah 16:23:20 I probably just need a better naming scheme for vocabularies so there aren't collisions 16:26:09 in this particular case, you could call the array-operations vocabulary "arrays" (plural) 16:28:10 the more general problem of names of different kind of things colliding (e.g. normal words vs. vocabularies in forth; integers v.s. functions, globals vs. locals, etc, in C) has sometimes been solved by prefixes 16:32:33 --- quit: Keshl (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 16:35:59 yeeaaahh 16:36:28 the plural idea is pretty good. let's see how far that gets me. thanks! 16:42:43 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.221) joined #forth 16:42:43 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 16:42:44 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 16:44:27 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.185.149.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 16:49:05 lol. yeah the "vocab was named 'array'" was what I didn't understand. also I didn't think a single word would switch vocabs. I thought you'd have a word to switch and specify which to switch to. anyway, sounds like everything is in order now. carry on ;) 16:51:21 isn't tha how it's usually done? 16:51:48 the vocabulary word just replaces the top of the search stack with itself? 16:52:05 well, not itself, but the vocabulary it points to 17:25:03 --- join: dave9 (~dave@207.213.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 17:25:17 hi 17:56:07 --- join: nighty-- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) joined #forth 17:58:00 I should probably get one of them redditwitters you kids are always raving about 17:58:52 for the first time in my life I've been thinking lately that irc might not be the best medium to talk about questions I have 17:59:21 so many of them would be better presented in a longer, paragraph-structured format 19:15:36 --- quit: dddddd (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:42:08 --- quit: pierpa (Quit: Page closed) 19:43:29 --- join: epony (~nym@77-85-141-166.ip.btc-net.bg) joined #forth 19:57:55 --- quit: jedb (Quit: Leaving) 20:01:25 --- join: jedb (jedb@gateway/vpn/mullvad/x-tkdhiimxtxdlmytl) joined #forth 20:04:24 --- quit: jedb (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:10:05 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 20:10:27 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 20:16:38 --- quit: dave9 (Quit: one love) 20:23:02 --- join: jedb (~jedb@199.66.90.209) joined #forth 20:36:21 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:25:37 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@95.234.60.234) joined #forth 21:32:26 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:25:38 --- join: dave9 (~dave@207.213.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au) joined #forth 23:00:32 --- join: johnnymacs (~user@2603:3023:a22:bb00:66a3:b591:f591:b654) joined #forth 23:03:25 --- quit: Labu (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1) 23:27:11 --- quit: johnnymacs (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:29:50 --- quit: wa5qjh (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 23:42:57 --- join: [1]MrMobius (~default@c-73-134-82-217.hsd1.va.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:46:04 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 23:46:04 --- nick: [1]MrMobius -> MrMobius 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/18.07.03