00:00:00 --- log: started forth/18.05.30 00:44:44 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@77.110.61.100) joined #forth 02:07:07 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 02:13:18 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-172-110.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 02:40:20 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:cd58:202a:9721:65cb) joined #forth 02:42:41 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 03:17:43 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 03:18:44 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@71.198.73.193) joined #forth 03:51:47 --- quit: FatalNIX (Disconnected by services) 03:52:15 --- join: FatalNIX_ (~FatalNIX@caligula.lobsternetworks.com) joined #forth 04:26:05 --- nick: FatalNIX_ -> FatalNIX 04:40:56 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:48:34 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 04:57:48 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 05:21:33 Is hastuur "gavino himself" 05:23:12 the meta-language troll? (: 05:30:01 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 05:43:08 --- quit: APic (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:46:14 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 05:50:07 WilhelmVonWeiner: yes 06:07:27 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 06:07:51 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 06:09:55 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: Leaving) 06:13:24 I've seen him over on comp.lang.forth as well, I believe. 06:16:37 I have a couple of Logitech K810 bt keyboards that I like very much - very comfortable experience. 06:17:01 I've used them with Android, but I believe they make a model in that family that's specifically aimed at iOS. 06:17:47 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 06:18:22 At times I've even used that for my office kb as well, just so I can have one kb for everything. It will pair with up to three things, and there are keys for switching around. 06:30:25 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 06:54:56 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:01:35 yep 07:01:49 so cgi forth code 07:01:53 is it nice n fast? 07:01:55 or slow? 07:02:02 nginz claims touse epoll so very fast.. 07:05:21 --- quit: johnmark (Quit: Leaving) 07:06:08 --- join: johnmark (~johnmark@64.53.247.121) joined #forth 07:17:17 I rememebr reading gforth takes 35ms to fork hmmm 07:17:25 maybe the fork speed is the limiting factor? 07:21:22 fork() does a good bit of work, doesn't it? Separate address spaces for each path 07:21:24 ? 07:22:53 fork shouldn't take long, and its performance shouldn't depend much on the particular program (such as gforth) 07:23:00 fork+exec however... 07:23:30 fork should be fast, especially on Linux 07:23:37 Windows doesn't have fork() AFAIK 07:43:10 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:d8a5:6b83:c246:4922) joined #forth 07:57:12 how fast does it need to be? 07:59:46 you have no specifics. What would the cgi be used for? 08:00:08 why do you even want to use forth for this 08:00:48 there are ways to speed up a CGI, e.g. FastCGI or its friends 08:27:06 --- quit: dave9 (Quit: dave's not here) 08:44:40 --- join: APic (apic@apic.name) joined #forth 08:53:09 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 09:03:22 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 09:03:34 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:d8a5:6b83:c246:4922) joined #forth 09:04:26 wel my first app would be something like a chat 09:04:28 html chat 09:04:34 then a bodybuiodling forum liek getbig.com 09:04:40 then m,aybe somethign liek craigslsit 09:04:47 then a site for rating lawyers 09:04:55 another for rating union house fizxit help in area 09:04:59 another for rating cops 09:05:02 stuff liek that 09:05:06 to hurt tax parasites 09:14:07 Look at your favourite CGI in C, and copy that 09:15:38 --- join: dys (~dys@2a01:598:8983:a2f8:226:5eff:fee9:68d2) joined #forth 09:23:18 performance shouldn't be a big issue for most of those 09:23:46 Is it possible to decalre a variable in the middle of a word 09:25:25 WilhelmVonWeiner: possibly doable if your Forth supports locals 09:27:02 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 09:44:09 hmmm 09:44:20 i dont know c... 09:45:56 what language(s) do you know? 09:47:58 --- join: yuipe (9f7f20fe@gateway/web/freenode/ip.159.127.32.254) joined #forth 09:50:59 hastuur_: Learn C and Python 09:52:10 what was the question? 09:58:33 hastuur_ has inquired about forth and cgi (no specific inquiries so far, just broad questions) 10:06:27 hastuur_: choose a forth, read RFC3875, and see what you can create 11:01:46 python :( 11:01:51 gforth 11:01:58 oow I never read an rfc before 11:04:06 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Common_Gateway_Interface what about this? 11:04:30 is gforth the most popular free distribution? 11:06:08 well its available on my freebsd 11.1 amd64 11:06:09 heh 11:06:27 Im so sick to death of the job market in boston for linux n cloud devops stuff 11:06:31 morons interviewing me 11:06:38 then say Im not up to snuff 11:06:39 wow 11:06:46 ask ashit liek difference nfs 3 to 4 11:06:50 I said tcp/ip used 11:06:54 I guess thats wrong 11:06:55 lol 11:06:57 but its not 11:07:00 I looked it up 11:11:55 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 11:12:15 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 11:16:42 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:18:47 yuipe: I think gforth is one of the most widely distributed free Forths. It's easy to put your hands on. 11:19:05 If you're looking for something that's easy to build from source there's one out there called pforth that I've worked with in the past. 11:19:29 I recall that it was more or less just "make" and "run." 11:20:04 Not *too* hard to figure out what's going on in the source - I did some fairly extensive modifications to it for a project I did years ago when I was a consultant. 11:22:03 I think the trick is finding something that is free and can create independent binary executables 11:24:27 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 11:24:55 You mean binaries that contain only the code you compile into them? Some of these Forths will let you "save off" the system after you've loaded new code into it. But that's the whole thing - not the same sort of binary you'd get by compiling a C program. 11:25:21 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:25:32 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 11:26:18 Yes, this would be similar to compiling a Forth program to something that can be distributed 11:27:35 I'm not sure I'm aware of a free one that would do that well. 11:28:18 Would you be designing something that would use the Forth interpreter as the user interface? Or are you envisioning building a separate interface, perhaps a GUI? 11:28:38 it would be for a computer game 11:28:52 If you want the interpreter then you have to have all the words that it requires, and at that point it's almost not worth throwing anything out - it's so much easier just to save the whole thing. 11:29:01 Ah, ok. So definitely an app-specific interface then. 11:29:55 swift forth can do it but it would be $$$ 11:30:01 same with 8th 11:31:29 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:35:38 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 11:38:19 reva (http://dev.ronware.org/p/reva/home) [Ron Aaron's previous Forth before 8th) can make new standalone executables 11:42:11 x4 (https://github.com/mark4th/x4) does as well 12:00:47 thank you 12:03:00 So does VFX Forth 12:06:51 crc: LOVE this line in the x4 README: 12:06:54 You will also note that the sources make no references to any linkable 12:06:56 libraries. This is also deliberate, if I wanted to have a middle man do 12:06:58 all the work for me or have mommy hold my hand all the time I would be 12:07:00 coding in C. 12:07:10 Just positively lmao... 12:07:39 this piece has certainly an appealing vibe in it :) 12:08:42 mark4 is *very* anti-C 12:09:21 * jackdaniel likes C (and he would like C-- even more if it had better compiler support) 12:09:22 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:09:39 x4 sounds sweet 12:12:39 x4 isn't bad. Non-ANS (closer to F83 IIRC). 32-bit x86, Linux only. 12:13:49 F83 has (personally) the best wordlist 12:14:11 I don't want too many words 12:25:08 I have 55 words in my minimal system, 232 additional in the standard library, and around 100-150 more for I/O and platform specific additions (e.g., my main *nix interface adds a lot, as does the iOS interface. Fewer additions on Windows and none on a couple, like DOS) 12:27:18 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 13:03:09 that dude is HARD CORE 13:03:16 chuck moore would b proud 13:03:22 dont use anothers subroutine 13:03:24 write yourt own! 13:03:40 im guna write a 1000 node dataabse in pure forth! 13:03:42 with web stuff 13:03:47 that outdoes java! 13:06:02 If you implement round-robin multitasking 13:06:04 coroutines 13:06:31 I'll personally hand-deliver you a PC with USB3 and web browser written in 1% the code 13:09:23 is anyone unhappy that if you want to remove a word from the dictionary that you have sometimes rebuild the entire dict from scratch? (ie: removal of a word may require the removal of many) 13:09:35 +to 13:17:45 hastuur_: you *can* use C w/o libc 13:20:02 yuipe: No, that's never made me unhappy. The system structure that leads to that requirement is incredibly low-overhead. More than worth it (to me) compared to a more abstracted structure that would allow removal of individual words. 13:20:04 yuipe: this never bothered me. I have words to hide other words and/or reset the dictionary to a known state. And a full rebuild doesn't take long. 13:21:22 yuipe: What would be an example motivation for removing a word from the dictionary? 13:22:01 If you just don't want it to be available, you can do that no problem. If you want to reclaim the space... well, those words don't really take up much space to start with. 13:22:21 I guess I'm a bit obsessive compulsive and like entering words in a specific way; I suppose mostly second guessing myself. 13:22:48 But you are right it doesn't take much time to rebuild everything 13:23:48 Yes, even traditional Forths rebuild pretty fast, and that's part of what CM was working on later on too - speeding up compilation even more. Some of his crew made some absolutely incredible statements about compile speed in some of the papers I've read. 13:25:33 Moore did some things where he moved a large part of the compile work to edit time. 13:25:44 I wish CM cared about Free Software 13:25:49 So that when you built it was mostly just copying pre-compiled structures into the dictionary. 13:31:38 I think I may play with such a structure sometime soon, in the Forth I'm currently working with. 13:32:22 It involves a fair bit of change from a FIG style dictionary. Separate headers that are more of a "source symbol directory" than a traditional "dictionary." 13:33:04 Not that Jeff Fox really talks implementation in the papers I've read - I'm having to sort of reverse engineer it based on behavioral descriptions. 13:33:09 personally the coolest forth work CM has done is Machine Forth 13:33:26 Machine Forth is pretty neat. 13:33:38 I'm not on board with all of his latest ideas, but there are still some "nuggets" in there. 13:33:53 latest ideas? 13:34:06 Well, "later" ideas. 13:34:10 ColorForth era. 13:34:12 Like Color and Ether forth? 13:34:38 I wrote a color "front end" that let me type stuff in color. Didn't "do" anything except show up on the screen, but it gave me a feel. 13:34:48 I don't think I could ever get comfortable with that. 13:34:50 what would be considered the fastest Forth for an 8 bit microcomputer that utilizes a 6809 cpu? 13:35:14 Ah, 6809. Really fantastic little chip. 13:35:19 I learned assembly on that guy. 13:35:37 KipIngram: crc has a Forth called Retro, version 12 is kind of like colorForth sans colors 13:35:43 it uses prefixes instead 13:36:12 I do like the idea of multiple entry points. 13:36:32 Which as far as I can tell requires using different memory regions for the different sorts of stuff. 13:36:43 it lacks that, but he did share with me a line of Retro to enable that 13:37:31 I have a Forth that I implemented in gcc. It has a "real" structure - uses gcc's extension for pointers to labels. I don't think I could make it work on a compiler without that. 13:37:54 It started life as a FIG style dictionary, and I'm gradually nudging it toward the separate regions so I can do the multiple entry points. 13:38:21 The primitives are still C-implemented, but I've proven the ability to poke machine code into the malloc buffer where the main system lives and have it work. 13:38:31 So I have a mental roadmap to get it to where it can compile itself. 13:39:16 I should do a color based interface for retro sometime 13:39:23 I've run it on a 32-bit Linux system and on a 64-bit MacOS system. 13:39:32 Current platform is the 64-bit MacOS. 13:40:01 I'm interested in buying a Mac but I'm patiently waiting for the new chips to roll out and initial bugs squashed. 13:41:40 HomeBrew for the win, fyi. 13:46:52 Homebrew is no better than portage 13:50:56 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:51:39 --- quit: yuipe (Quit: Page closed) 14:13:38 Fair enough - I haven't used portage. I guess I meant "something like that." 14:14:05 I was sort of fearful going into MacOS-land, but an IRC buddy put me onto homebrew and that makes things enough like Linux that I can be content. 14:14:18 So "a package manager" for the win. :-) 14:45:28 The only things i use on my mac are xcode and retro 14:58:40 That sounds like a nice place to be. 15:35:03 --- quit: Keshl (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 16:33:52 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 16:45:37 --- join: karswell (~user@cust125-dsl91-135-5.idnet.net) joined #forth 17:24:17 WilhelmVonWeiner: I think of CM and RMS as the two halves of software freedom. RMS: You are allowed to read/modify/redistribute this code. CM: You actually would read/modify/redistribute this code. It's license freedom & coding freedom. 17:25:49 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 17:37:31 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:d8a5:6b83:c246:4922) joined #forth 17:37:33 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:37:49 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:d8a5:6b83:c246:4922) joined #forth 17:44:07 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) joined #forth 18:32:32 pointfree: But CM doesn't release his sources, does he? 18:32:50 The entire ArrayForth suite is for windoze 18:42:43 WilhelmVonWeiner: He releases various forths under public domain: cmForth, colorforth, machine forth, various applications. GreenArrays wants to hold onto arrayforth but the code is visible. No source code only really works when there's a distinction between writing code and executing programs. 18:43:07 I can't say I've used much forth written by CM or other forthers, but I am inspired into adapting ideas from other forthers into my own stuff. 18:47:32 WilhelmVonWeiner: Do you have a ga144 schmartboard? 19:11:25 Yes 19:11:40 I'm still in the process of figuring out what connections to make 19:12:09 I also wasn't aware colorforth was PD 19:12:12 (thanks) 19:15:23 --- quit: johnmark (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:16:20 --- join: johnmark (~johnmark@64.53.247.121) joined #forth 19:26:01 --- join: erkin (~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin) joined #forth 20:06:36 --- quit: cheater (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:10:48 --- join: cheater (~cheater@unaffiliated/cheater) joined #forth 20:21:42 --- quit: ThirtyOne32nds (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 21:09:18 --- quit: pierpal (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 21:10:43 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 21:14:46 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 21:17:16 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:49:59 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 21:52:07 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:58:56 --- join: dys (~dys@2a01:598:8983:a2f8:226:5eff:fee9:68d2) joined #forth 22:03:36 --- join: lf94 (~lf94@unaffiliated/lf94) joined #forth 22:03:53 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 22:09:40 --- quit: pierpal (Quit: Poof) 22:09:58 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 22:27:01 --- join: ThirtyOne32nds (~rtmanpage@76.sub-174-204-0.myvzw.com) joined #forth 22:29:15 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:30:04 --- quit: erkin (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...) 22:35:48 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 22:36:39 --- quit: ThirtyOne32nds (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:45:40 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:47:35 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 22:52:13 --- quit: pierpal (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:08:17 yuipe: I'm personally prefer PFE (portable forth environment), no reasons why, just like it more than gforth 23:21:59 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:25:35 how would it portable? 23:31:54 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 23:38:36 --- join: pierpal (~pierpal@host23-9-dynamic.16-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/18.05.30