00:00:00 --- log: started forth/18.02.27 00:23:08 --- join: smokeink (~smokeink@59-125-75-78.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 00:27:53 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:100:6af7:28ff:fe06:801) joined #forth 01:23:26 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@14.207.86.145) joined #forth 01:23:26 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 01:26:33 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 01:29:39 --- join: dddddd (~dddddd@unaffiliated/dddddd) joined #forth 01:31:28 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.222) joined #forth 01:31:28 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 01:31:28 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 01:39:15 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:43:11 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:100:6af7:28ff:fe06:801) joined #forth 01:48:10 --- join: ncv (~neceve@90.217.56.158) joined #forth 01:48:10 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 01:48:10 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 01:53:57 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:58:09 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteus-g@14.207.9.218) joined #forth 02:00:40 johnnymacs: major? i was hoping for colonel at least 02:01:53 cess11_: thanks 02:02:05 Zarutian_PI: can you tell me more about classical ai research regarding salence? 02:02:20 Zarutian_PI: i would like to follow up on this but i'd need many more pointers i think 02:36:25 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 02:37:47 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:48:13 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 03:38:38 --- quit: proteus-guy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:41:55 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 05:46:05 --- join: smokeink (~smokeink@59-125-75-78.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 07:34:19 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:43:58 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p4FE8DE0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 09:47:56 cheater: Some books on semiotics: http://visual-memory.co.uk/daniel/Documents/S4B/ https://monoskop.org/images/0/07/Sebeok_Thomas_Signs_An_Introduction_to_Semiocs_2nd_ed_2001.pdf 10:16:25 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice time.) 10:17:08 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p4FE8DE0F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 10:31:55 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:36:31 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice time.) 11:05:29 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-099-166.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 12:07:04 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p4FE8D3C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 12:15:11 pointfree: thanks 12:25:34 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice time.) 12:32:50 --- join: Labu (~mik@mvice.pck.nerim.net) joined #forth 12:33:03 Hello all! 12:36:20 in gforth (I don't know for other implementation), there is a special comment (\G) which "Equivalent to \ but used as a tag to annotate definition comments into documentation". how can I use documentation created with this comment ? 12:36:29 http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/gforth/Docs-html/Comments.html#Comments 12:41:38 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 13:36:13 cheater: I argue that you can learn all there really is to know about semiotics by studying the limits of symbolic computation 13:36:38 semiotics afaik means the same thing as "the study of symbolic interpretation" 13:44:30 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 13:44:50 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 13:48:15 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 13:50:05 --- join: rixard (~rixard@h-103-65.A444.priv.bahnhof.se) joined #forth 13:51:36 --- quit: rixard (Client Quit) 14:01:49 --- join: Gromboli (~Gromboli@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:15:36 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.222) joined #forth 14:15:36 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 14:15:36 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 14:56:07 --- quit: Labu (Quit: Leaving.) 15:02:28 johnnymacs: does it? 15:02:32 i don't know that it does 15:19:35 I am pretty sure you are studying a similar thing to what I was studying for five yeara 15:31:01 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:37:37 johnnymacs: I am curious, how does semotics deal with gestalt-flipping (like that drawing of an young or old woman or that white vase vs two siluetted faces) 16:37:45 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 16:48:04 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 16:55:19 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) joined #forth 17:05:52 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@175.158.225.222) joined #forth 17:05:52 --- quit: wa5qjh (Changing host) 17:05:52 --- join: wa5qjh (~quassel@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 17:29:49 johnnymacs: i'm not a student 17:30:11 johnnymacs: i'm writing a compiler for work and want to read some loosely related philosophical takes as fuzzy inspiration 17:30:47 the last thing i was reading was Surfaces and Essences by Hofstadter and that's not programming language related at all, but it turned out to be very insightful in general. 17:55:35 cheater: regarding semiotics, by understanding the six different types of signs (symptom, signal, icon, index, symbol, name) and how they are related I could see how language could emerge without already existing language. 17:56:01 cheater: semiotics informs how I bootstrap my lazy-eval dataflow forth without colons, core words, or other core syntax. 17:57:12 interesting 17:58:39 how does this interact with denotational semantics? specifically with the ability to have e.g. a stack of interpreters between intermediate languages, L0...Ln, and being able to take Li and compile it down to Li+j, j>0 (i.e. interpret the meaning of Li in terms of Li+j) 18:00:19 pointfree: are signs contained within the six types of signs just a semantic level (i.e. if our source language is L0 then they're just terms in L1) or are the six types of signs some sort of orthogonal classification? 18:48:47 cheater: I don't come at it from the angle of Chomsky hierarchy etc. Here's my take: 18:48:55 symptom: The birds in the forest see immediate food or immediate danger. This is the environment. 18:49:17 signal: The birds chirp one way for immediate food or another way for immediate danger. This is just hardware/instinct. You can think of the signals themselves as largely arbitrary except for how well the sound carries, noisy vs quiet environment etc. 18:49:27 icon: Naturally the birds make different chirps in different locations based on the variation in the environment (food or danger in different locations) 18:49:36 index: By juxtaposing icons the birds can distinguish locations. These are effectively signals over icons. 18:49:52 symbols: Everything has a physical manifestation. Symbols are just discontiguous with respect to physical location. The machine code is contiguous. You may pull out factors into high level forth words by skipping over chunks of machine code. 18:50:07 name: Names effectively give symbols physical locations again (these are like indexes for symbols) 18:58:42 cheater: I replaced stacks with fifos in my forth. Stacks are good for dumping a lot stuff into them and forgetting about all but a few frequently used items. I've never heard of a good forth programmer doing that with a parameter stack. 18:59:41 I don't think stacks are what make forth simple. Implicit parameter passing (comes by way of fixed arity), and compile-time execution are what make forth simple. 19:00:34 Whenever forth is complicated or awkward it's because of stacks. 19:14:32 I'm thinking (forwards) polish notation concatenates more naturally in concatenative languages based on left-to-right language natural languages (i.e. English). New parameters, numbers, etc are written left-to-right. 19:30:41 --- join: smokeink (~smokeink@59-125-75-78.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 19:43:16 woops looks like I misinterpreted "stack of interpreters between intermediate languages" 20:06:59 --- quit: smokeink (Remote host closed the connection) 20:13:50 I've got my forth design about as fast as I could make it in c 20:14:12 I'm afraid that it still won't be fast enough to get near the speeds of c 20:22:54 johnnymacs: on C optimized hardware I guess the compiled forth code is fastest when it looks like compiled C, only with forth the compiler has to be fast too. There is nowhere to offload the complexity in forth. 20:27:24 --- quit: dddddd (Remote host closed the connection) 20:28:07 I think for speed you have to give up some of the complexity. that is why I am considering dropping the dictionary after compile 21:10:56 --- quit: Gromboli (Quit: Leaving) 21:24:10 The way I see it is that a dictionary on a high level system should be a hash table and a dictionary of a low level forth sould have a word limit 21:24:37 I think that having a dictionary be a pseudo linked list is a bad design 21:25:13 making it a linked list is sort of a compromise to give you a hash table like system on a system that cant have a real one 21:25:41 For some people that compromise is ok but for me its not 21:26:31 You should not need more than say five thousand words unless you are creating machine generated words or deep vocabularies 21:39:37 --- join: smokeink (~smokeink@185.134.120.54) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/18.02.27