00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.11.20 00:34:24 --- join: dys (~dys@tmo-103-110.customers.d1-online.com) joined #forth 00:57:27 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:10:57 --- join: roundsf` (~user@2a00:2381:1a72:10:a5b9:eb79:584b:d0b4) joined #forth 01:14:42 --- quit: roundsf (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 01:18:51 --- join: dys (~dys@2003:5b:203b:100:6af7:28ff:fe06:801) joined #forth 01:42:54 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 02:24:35 --- join: ncv (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:26:32 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@2a02:c7d:c5c9:a900:c792:a3e8:397d:b37) joined #forth 02:26:32 --- quit: ncv_ (Changing host) 02:26:32 --- join: ncv_ (~neceve@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 02:29:10 --- quit: ncv (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 03:48:22 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 04:07:06 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:08:42 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-g@184.22.241.32) joined #forth 04:08:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 04:18:04 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 04:32:29 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:10a5:1f94:4406:ece3) joined #forth 04:36:58 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 05:04:09 --- quit: Uniju (Quit: Feeling down? You may already be a charge target.) 06:01:54 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 06:02:48 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:10a5:1f94:4406:ece3) joined #forth 06:07:14 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 08:49:23 --- quit: MrBusiness (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 10:15:57 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:74a5:c395:bc7a:f597) joined #forth 10:35:36 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-166-237.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:41:47 --- quit: Keshl_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:42:05 --- join: Keshl_ (~Purple@24.115.185.149.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 12:03:07 --- quit: tusj (Remote host closed the connection) 12:03:36 --- join: tusj (~tusj@185.176.244.94) joined #forth 12:08:30 --- join: dys (~dys@2a01:598:8887:cedd:eab1:fcff:fe36:4b0b) joined #forth 12:31:14 --- quit: bedah (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:35:42 cheater: the only book I know about implementing a forth is https://www.amazon.com/Threaded-Interpretive-Languages-Design-Implementation/dp/007038360X 12:36:07 I expect it could still be useful for implementing an 8-bit integer forth even now 12:36:52 jonesforth is also something that comes up in this context, as a heavily commented, "literate programming" kind of forth-by-example. 12:44:19 --- join: bedah (~bedah@2a02:810d:243f:f584:f563:c263:3daa:f40f) joined #forth 13:06:55 --- quit: Keshl_ (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 13:25:51 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.185.149.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 13:39:34 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 13:57:50 --- quit: ncv_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:27:47 --- join: Uniju (~frog_styl@cpe-74-78-4-232.mass.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:12:15 --- quit: nighty- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:39:22 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 16:57:01 --- join: MrBusiness (~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:7820:deca:40bd:c850) joined #forth 17:07:55 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) joined #forth 17:16:58 cheater: then there is eForth which is rather informative 18:35:19 --- quit: nighty- (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 18:43:58 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@kyotolabs.asahinet.com) joined #forth 19:29:35 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@freebsd/user/wa5qjh) joined #forth 19:38:14 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 19:41:14 So I'm loving Forth, but choosing it as my semester research language was a very bad idea 19:42:20 i'm getting poor grades on all of my semester papers because my peers can't understand my papers, and each paper is a part of a series and they never see the previous parts in the series, but I can't explain how a fucking stack works every damn paper when it's going to be compiled into one big paper at the semester's end 19:43:26 So I have lines of code put down then I explain what it does, and how it works, and then get comments like, "So what does this line of code mean? I can't understand this" 19:43:53 and if they saw the previous part, they would know exactly what it means 19:43:58 without me even explaining 20:02:28 cheater, Brad Rodriguez has a great set of articles on how to implement a forth. http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm 20:03:13 Perhaps you could put a big bold disclaimer at the beginning saying "if you don't understand what I'm talking about, look at ", and if they still give those comments, I dunno... "call into question their reading comprehension" sounds a bit harsh. Are there any particular requirements that each paper needs to work standalone? 20:03:27 FatalNIX, why can't your new paper reference the previous paper(s)? That's what researchers do. 20:03:57 FatalNIX, are you being graded by the other people in your class? 20:04:00 I tried that once, and then they were like, "Don't do that" 20:04:06 sort of 20:04:40 our rough drafts are, and then we are graded based on our changes from their editing 20:04:55 it's really awesome but also really stupid in my case 20:05:47 reepca`: That is an idea I've come up with since it's just a rough draft 20:05:59 I could include it in my rough drafts and then remove it for the final ones 20:06:42 reepca`: at the end of the semester, we compile all of the papers into a chaptered single paper 20:07:11 so like, I'm seriously not going to waste my time explaining how the colon compiler works in every part 20:07:32 my university started making us do online discussion for class this year and it is next to worthless. no real discussion actually happens. people just ask the shortest questions possible to get credit and no one answers them. sounds like your professor went to the same ridiculous "Harnessing technology" garbage seminar mine did 20:07:40 FatalNIX, sounds like you need to have a discussion with your instructor. 20:07:51 Yeah I emailed him 20:08:16 I said I am tired of getting shit edited papers that just say "Sorry i don't understand your paper" and no actual good editing 20:08:34 Hopefully he's more reasonable than my freshman instructor was - "You didn't capitalize fahrenheit in a comment, -2" 20:08:47 wtf 20:08:58 capitalization of comments is a preference of opinion 20:09:08 lol 20:09:08 I capitalize my comments, but I don't expect most to 20:09:15 ah, but fahrenheit is a proper noun, and comments are to be written in correct english. 20:09:43 Except that it is a computer program 20:09:44 mine corrected something I submitted for review from "friends and family" to "family and friends." welcome to academia 20:10:03 And not all computers even have lowercase letters 20:10:05 :P 20:10:06 I wish I still had that graded printout so I could frame it 20:11:00 Here's the interesting thing. This particular time, the TA for the professor also edited my paper as a third editor. His comments and editing was spectacular 20:11:20 instead of worrying about understanding how my ******* code works, he tried to make sense out of my points and what I was saying 20:11:28 like my peers should be doing >.> 20:12:02 We're not supposed to be teaching the language, just speaking the concepts of the language and how it works 20:12:54 I chose Forth because I understood stack machines and wanted to learn Forth for a long time, but never got the chance to so I just took this class as an excuse to. 20:13:51 Everyone chooses a language and writes about it. I have to edit other people's papers, and I could care less about knowing how all of their code works, I'm more interested in the principles of why things work, etc. 20:14:01 And because of that, I haven' 20:14:11 Haven't complained about not understanding other people's code 20:40:09 FatalNIX: you need to be able to recap things in subsequent papers. if your papers cannot recap quickly enough, you are writing papers that are too advanced for their purpose. they would be good research articles, but for school it would seem they're too ambitious. 20:40:22 dzho, Zarutian_PI, proteusguy thanks for the tips. 20:40:45 H 20:40:49 Hm* 20:41:09 FatalNIX: personally i think it's important with any kind of writing for it to be in small units that are self-contained and assume the minimal amount of things 20:41:58 so if you have to introduce a concept in each paper over and over again, that's fine. people who haven't read other papers won't mind, and people who have will get a refresher. it's a very respectful way to do things because it minimizes the strain on the reader. 20:42:25 "small" and "self-contained" would appear to be at odds with each other. 20:46:17 they are not at odds 20:47:02 i think you are mistaken. in my experience, very many topics can be limited in scope. as you start minimizing for size, you start cutting away unnecessary parts which crystallizes your presentation and improves quality drastically. 20:47:45 * proteusguy agrees with cheater - small and self-contained are common associations. 20:48:07 it's all about eliminating complexity. 20:49:11 My paper is already nearly as small as allowed though 20:49:23 they have to be like 4-5 pages or so each 20:50:09 Right so add a paragraph that summarizes the prior paper with a reference for them to find details. 20:50:10 i think it's not only about that. sometimes, when you are describing a somewhat complex new concept, it can be described from many angles. often depending on which approach you take the concept can become very difficult or trivial. finding the simplest way to present things is a very difficult art. often the only way you'll be able to do this is if you've seen someone else present things in that way. 20:50:41 FatalNIX: when we say "small" we don't mean amount of words, we mean amount of concepts one needs to hold in their head to understand it 20:50:56 agreed - in the detailed paper you must provide all the views of the subject. in the referencing paper you need only mention that which is relevant to the specific context at hand. 20:51:03 10 000 words of simple to understand text are better than 2500 words of dry technical definitions 20:51:33 proteusguy: he is not allowed to reference papers from other papers 20:51:53 proteusguy: he depends on people having read previous papers, but it seems the course dictates no such expectation should be made 20:52:13 huh? I didn't see that "no references allowed". At that point I'm changing my educational institution. No joke. 20:54:04 Add the other paper as an appendix? :) 20:54:07 he's just undergrad, and he's presenting a topic of his own. i think it's reasonable to expect his presentations to be self-contained and not expect references to other papers for understanding of the presentation, especially when each of the students has to present multiple such papers to all other students in a single semester. 20:54:33 they're just a study group, and making the presentations too ambitious is overkill. 20:54:50 cheater, again I did say summarize it enough to understand it but a reference is nice so people can go to it if they desire more details. 20:55:19 i think that's a veiled way of saying "just make them read the other paper anyways" 20:55:27 A problem comes where I have required sections such as for example "Explain the concept of expressions in your language and how they are parsed" That one isn't so bad. However, then you get required sections such as "Explain the concept of arrays, lists, and similar data structures of your language"- However depending on how you build those in Forth, you need a lot of boiler plate to understand if you don't know the language 20:55:30 i think that's the author lying to himself 20:55:59 "In my previous paper I introduced SubjectA which provides that concept1 & concept2 are useful for problemX because of mechanicsi..j." There's your reference. 20:57:01 FatalNIX: it would seem the course assumes a certain kind of language and yours isn't that. so my suggestion is that you present the fact that forth is different to java or C, and that it's a much more low level language, and that maybe you should try doing something else, or a little different, to this objective. 20:57:27 proteusguy: when you do this you're still expecting people to know those other papers implicitly. 20:57:32 that's not fair towards the reader. 20:58:02 Well, I can't exactly argue that it's much different from C in some aspects, nothing prevents you from representing data structures in Forth or C in the same way.. 20:58:06 or strings.. 20:58:12 cheater, nonsense - I actually describe the context and mechanics. That's enough details to then re-use the concepts in the remaining paper. 20:58:39 FatalNIX, you could always point out that Java sits on top of the JVM which is a stack machine just like forth. :-) 20:58:42 And I have mentioned a few times "in comparison to C" or something 20:58:53 heheh I always forget the JVM is a stack machine 20:59:06 FatalNIX, ALL the VMs are stack machines. 20:59:24 Why would you say that? 20:59:43 What about Dataflow VMs? 20:59:46 FatalNIX, because it is true. Major difference from forth is forth has two explicit stacks rather than one. 21:00:14 Dataflow? I'm talking VMs for major languages. C#, Python, Ruby, et al. 21:00:23 Heh heh 21:00:36 I find dataflow architectures fascinating 21:01:26 FatalNIX, our company built a statically typed concatonative language for processing data flows on top of.... stack machines! :-) 21:01:43 heh 21:02:03 What I mean is like, this: http://csg.csail.mit.edu/pubs/memos/Memo-261-1/Memo-261-2.pdf 21:02:31 some dataflow architecture cpus work kind of like a recrusive packet feedback system 21:03:03 instructions are processed only when all of the data is present, so it could be useful in systems where memory is slower than the core. 21:03:45 But.. their use cases are usually a bit different. 21:03:57 FatalNIX, yep that's exactly what we did. We use a pull model vs. a push model for that very reason. 21:04:36 tbh, it almost seems backwards, but in most networks, a pull model is generally more efficient 21:05:56 FatalNIX, that's been my experience. Everything works as a set of co-routine generators running in parallel. When you ask one for a result it starts a chain reaction that sucks in the data and performs the operations. Never have a backpressure problem as a restul. 21:06:07 I do think we're wasting time with slow memory though. It's 2017 and we should have grasped the concept of cheap static memory by now 21:06:55 The fact that main memory is one of our largest bottlenecks even today is a bit frustrating. 21:07:15 Memory is hard to do both fast and efficiently. Gonna be that way for some time as quantum tunneling and power loss at smaller die sizes limits our ability to go smaller or throw more volts at it. 21:08:00 Yeah.. but it's also expensive to use static memory. you'd think by now it'd have become cheaper. Dynamic makes economic sense 21:08:22 FatalNIX, for the reasons I just stated it remains expensive and will continue to be so. 21:08:33 heh 21:09:06 Though on the bright side, for most things I need a computer to do in my spare time, a 6502 is sufficient 21:10:13 because in my spare spare time, when I have no weird projects, I'm just farting aorund. I've been thinking of building a computer in my home office rack 21:10:51 a fully custom multi board computer. it'd be my first multi board, I've only done SBCs 21:11:43 haven't determined architecture. Some of my friends say they'd like to see me build it entirely with wire wraps and relays and crap but that'ss power hungry, probably too slow, expensive, and I have never touched the art of wire wrapping.. 21:13:02 at the same time, I don't want to line up shittons of ICs and build an architecture with 74 series logic necessarily either, but if I don't, I wonder what architecture I should go for... 21:13:46 I recently designed a very small cpu architecture that only has four instructions 21:13:53 just for fun that is 21:13:59 Read Koopman's stack machines and do something with an FPGA. 21:14:01 it's the smallest one I ever designed :D 21:14:16 I do have an FPGA.. 21:14:27 a little lattice ICE40 21:14:53 that's all you need. 21:16:26 my cpu's 4 instructions are push immediate word on stack (IM), Fetch memory onto stack (FM), Load memory from stack (LM), and Complete Procedure / NOP (CP) 21:17:28 the first page of memory is the microcode page, consistring of those four instructions, the second page is the decoder page, so you load memory with your microcode and decoder and create your own architecture during power up 21:18:00 ALU and everything else is memory mapped, so it's slower, but imo it's pretty damn modular and swesome 21:18:23 it's the most "exoskeleton" style computer I ever came up with 21:21:40 proteusguy: there is a drawback to using an FPGA much worse than the average considered list.. 21:23:21 There's no telling what extra secrets are on that chip.. I dunno if I can trust anybody anymore now that intel's Minix orphan was leaked 21:24:48 One of my Xilinx FPGAs downstairs is literally just a PowerPC chip SoC with RAM 21:25:23 FatalNIX, it's pretty easy to tell if you have an FPGA without a native CPU in it. One can look at the chip and see what's on it. 21:25:42 right 21:26:10 But I'm getting paranoid now XD 21:38:46 It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you! ;-) 21:42:02 lol 21:42:27 I just miss the old days when stuff was much simpler 21:42:47 There were definately machines out there that were a pita to operate 21:42:52 but some of them were great 21:43:58 --- quit: reepca` (Remote host closed the connection) 21:45:35 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 21:46:45 --- join: reepca (~user@208.89.170.230) joined #forth 21:58:16 Out of curiosity does anyone know of a logic programming layer for Forth? 22:00:47 Forth does have and, or, etc.. usually.. 22:00:59 you can easily implement nand if that's what you mean 22:01:20 I mean something more prolog/datalog-like 22:09:55 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-g@14.207.43.231) joined #forth 22:09:55 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 22:23:14 --- join: Uniju_ (~frog_styl@cpe-74-78-4-232.mass.res.rr.com) joined #forth 22:27:03 --- quit: Uniju (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:28:39 --- join: yunfan (~roooot@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 23:29:02 are there any CAD software using forth as the language except okad 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.11.20