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07:21:07 <newuser|97166> yo, hello kind forthers, please drop me some reading material
07:21:17 <newuser|97166> but not just some reading material
07:21:44 <newuser|97166> today i am looking for: string interpolators/formatters, template engines
07:21:57 <newuser|97166> i am sure there is some good research in forth
07:23:53 <newuser|97166> Rob Chapmans' Timbre system sounds like the heavy weight champion in the field
07:24:49 <newuser|97166> it's a bit heavy for me, will gladly appreciate any other sources, cheers
07:37:50 <newuser|97166> also from the comp.lang.forth there is ClearSilver template engine to the Colono HTTP
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12:36:21 <johnmark_> I am looking for an input statement that will accept a formula.  Perhaps instead if input I need a pause for adding something to the stack and then continue.
12:38:04 <johnmark_> If I want to run a trapezoid rule to calculate the area under the curve for sin(x) dx from 0 to 2*pi, then how do I enter 2*pi.
12:38:51 <johnmark_> Input min, Input max, run trapezoid rule, print results.
12:41:17 <johnmark_> On the Timex Sinclare you can say "Input Q$" to read a sting like "2*pi" and then say "Print val(Q$)" and the val command will do whatever math is necessary.
12:42:02 <johnmark_> Is there a way to something similar in forth?
12:44:38 <zy]x[yz> eval
12:50:07 <johnmark_> s" 2e 2e f*" evaluate f. 4.
12:50:20 <johnmark_> Thanks
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13:40:06 <DGASAU> "Input" from BASIC and "evaluate" from Forth are absolutely different things.
13:40:47 <DGASAU> "Input" corresponds to "expect" or "accept", Forth "evaluate" is "eval" in BASIC (in some versions).
13:41:37 <DGASAU> Or maybe "val" in yours.
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15:14:05 <leaverite> oi! gising na!
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17:22:40 <wa5qjh> knowbody here ?
17:23:39 <wa5qjh> here 0= ?
17:24:52 <DGASAU> Segmentation fault
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17:47:14 <wa5qjh> that's me! walking segmentation fault!!
17:48:03 <wa5qjh> or, today, a sitting seg fault.
17:48:55 <johnmark_> Is this related to the memory management unit?
17:48:55 <wa5qjh> at least now I have a new keyboard.albeit a noisy one.
17:49:31 <wa5qjh> especially the MMU!  
17:50:06 <wa5qjh> uses signetics 25120 WOM w/64GHz clock!
17:51:41 <johnmark_> Write Only Memory?
17:52:06 <wa5qjh> yup!!
17:52:33 <wa5qjh> announcement of it came out in signetics memory data book 1972.
17:52:41 <johnmark_> I think I saw a data sheet on that.
17:53:17 <wa5qjh> Apr. 1, 1972 and was in  the middle of the book. ( they printed them hard cover in  those days)
17:53:57 <johnmark_> Yes I remember now.
17:54:36 <wa5qjh> yeah,  they had to drop that from the book,  too many people were ordering them. only paid attention to  the speed. ignored the bit faucet on it even.
17:54:39 <johnmark_> I graduated Collage in 1987.
17:55:16 <wa5qjh> Ah!! this is you granualtion day!!
17:55:34 <johnmark_> That data sheet is a classic.
17:56:16 <wa5qjh> yes! too few people caught on  that since it was published april 1,  that it wasa joke!!
17:56:49 <wa5qjh> yeh,saw a reprint of it this year or last.
17:57:01 <johnmark_> Yes.  A write only memory man be useful for security.
17:57:24 <wa5qjh> on the web. who says nerds dont have a sense of humor?
17:58:02 <johnmark_> Kind of like a Dark Emitting Diode (DED).
17:58:24 <wa5qjh> heh, yup bet you could sell abunch of them to  the credit companies right about now!!
17:59:15 <wa5qjh> yeah, also very usefull for security, imagine if soldiers could have those?
17:59:57 <johnmark_> An incandescent light bulb can be called a Light Emitting Resistor.
18:00:11 <wa5qjh> yup!!
18:01:09 <wa5qjh> really, so could just about any light emitting device reall, CFL lamps get hot, even the led lightbulbs get hot.
18:02:24 <johnmark_> I tried to write some forth today but did not get very far.
18:03:39 <johnmark_> I tried to use accept but never seed to do much.
18:04:25 <wa5qjh> I'm starting all over trying to learn forth again. almost as bad  as starting from scratch. maybe worse.
18:05:08 <johnmark_> I just started learning myself.
18:05:25 <wa5qjh> started off today looking for forth compilers. already installed gforth and pfe, but lloking some more anyway.
18:05:57 <wa5qjh> s/lloking/looking/
18:06:18 <johnmark_> Most of my experience comes form a HP 28C calculator.
18:06:33 <reepca> I can't make up my mind about when is the right time to look at implementation details. It cleared up a lot for me, especially about create / does>
18:06:37 <wa5qjh> just saw MPE's msp430
18:07:17 <johnmark_> Have you figured out basic integer math with forth?
18:07:48 <wa5qjh> never really understood create..does or  builds...does, as I first saw it.
18:08:05 <wa5qjh> very carefully  ??
18:08:26 <wa5qjh> not well enough, now
18:08:31 <reepca> it seems like a strange thing to add to a language until you see how it's implemented
18:08:37 <wa5qjh> s/now/no/
18:09:21 <johnmark_> I saw a man redefine + to be -.
18:09:37 <wa5qjh> I think builds does simplest implementation would create an array. 
18:10:27 <wa5qjh> but a special one.  but it basically, as I understand it, creates an interpeter.
18:10:40 <reepca> aside from overflow/underflow and "the signedness is in your head", it's pretty simple. Oh, and the ambiguity left open about whether -3 2 / gives you -1 or -2.
18:10:48 <wa5qjh> of sorts, at least.\
18:11:48 <johnmark_> -3e 2e f/ f. will give an answer in floating point.
18:12:47 <johnmark_> 2e 3e f/ f>s . 0  ok
18:13:35 <johnmark_> -3e 2e f/ f>s . -1  ok
18:14:13 <johnmark_> I am using gforth.
18:15:39 <johnmark_> This is Linux: $ gforth -e "words bye"|grep int
18:16:03 <wa5qjh> yeah?  i dis a words on gforth. scrolled and scrolled
18:16:54 <johnmark_> $ gforth -e "words bye"|grep round
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18:18:07 <johnmark_> -3e 2e f/ fround f. -2.  ok
18:20:07 <wa5qjh> did it directly,  only got -2 ok
18:20:39 <johnmark_> -3e 2e f/ floor f. -2.  ok
18:21:39 <wa5qjh> look fpor  gforth-0.7.0.pdf
18:21:54 <wa5qjh> look for
18:22:47 <wa5qjh>  it lists all the words( mostly) with some explanation.
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18:27:21 <johnmark_> I found the document.
18:28:58 <wa5qjh> FatalNIX  have you seen CAMEL Forth ?
18:29:32 <wa5qjh> johnmark it also has a tutorial.
18:31:52 <johnmark_> I have heard of CAMEL forth, but I have not used it.
18:32:15 <wa5qjh> is there a Forth for Arduino ?  I think  there is. but cant remember where I saw it.
18:32:20 <johnmark_> I have tried forth on the Tandy Color Computer.
18:32:38 <johnmark_> I have tried forth on the Jupiter Ace.
18:32:53 <johnmark_> I have tried gforth on Linux.
18:32:56 <wa5qjh> the CoCo uses a 6809 and that's what CAMEL Forth is for.
18:33:41 <wa5qjh> inmy deluded opinion, 6809 is the neates mpu ever made!
18:33:46 <johnmark_> My Glenside Color Computer Club members mush have mentioned it.
18:34:22 <wa5qjh> I cant remember which Forth I used on my PET
18:34:26 <johnmark_> Yes it one of the better 8-bit CPUs.
18:35:15 <johnmark_> If you like the 6809 then you should come to the Tandy Assembly computer festival on Saturday.
18:35:30 <wa5qjh> one of the best 8bitters. could do 8,16,& 32bit addressing.
18:36:03 <wa5qjh> many instructions took 32  bits with all the addressing it used
18:36:45 <wa5qjh> that would be VERY difficult for me.  I live in  the boondocks of the Philippines!
18:36:57 <wa5qjh> to say nothing of expensive
18:37:04 <wa5qjh> :)
18:37:30 <wa5qjh> do  you remember SWTPC?
18:37:44 <johnmark_> Well there may some videos on YouTube about the event in a month or so.
18:38:52 <wa5qjh> rephrasing, does ANYBODY remember SWTPC? used to advertise on  the inside front cover of Byte Mag.
18:38:55 <johnmark_> Yes I have learned about South West TPC for my studies of computers.
18:39:29 <wa5qjh> I had two of their 6809 boxes. 
18:39:32 <johnmark_> It also used a 6809.
18:39:53 <wa5qjh> yes, but started out on 6800
18:40:18 <johnmark_> I am the newsletter editor for a newsletter.
18:40:49 <johnmark_> Newsletter: http://www.glensideccc.com/cgi-bin/mod/library.cgi?command=ListLibrary&Library=newsletters
18:41:20 <wa5qjh> 6809 started with the 'Flex' os  but reventually got Technicalk systems Consultant's  "Uniflex",my first unix style OS
18:41:28 <johnmark_> I am dyslexic but they made me the newsletter editor anyway.
18:41:40 <wa5qjh> where is glenside ?
18:42:19 <johnmark_> We meet at the Schaumberg Library in Illinois, USA.
18:42:45 <johnmark_> You can join the meeting on Google Hangouts.
18:43:01 <wa5qjh> that's gotta be a chalenge!!, been a lot of places in the US but never to Ill.
18:43:56 <johnmark_> Glenside puts on the CoCoFEST once a year.
18:44:15 <wa5qjh> basically from SAT, good old AlamoDome. Father-in-law worked at Alamo Iron works before the alamodome
18:44:43 <johnmark_> If you search for "Tandy CoCoFEST!" on YouTube you can see some of the event.
18:44:51 <wa5qjh> never had one.  I had the Commodore Pet.
18:45:15 <johnmark_> How about a Super PET.
18:45:58 <wa5qjh> the 32K pet, yeah,  think I had one of those too. 
18:46:26 <johnmark_> The Super PET had a 6502 and a 6809.
18:46:51 <wa5qjh> even replaced the roms with another language, but cant remember the name of it right now
18:47:19 <wa5qjh> ok, no, didnt have one of those., had the one before that.
18:47:33 <wa5qjh> wanted one, but couldnt afford it.
18:47:43 <johnmark_> If you like Commodore then check this out: http://vcfmw.org/
18:49:02 <johnmark_> Videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu3UDdi0llxiSaFKq-p5gYQ/videos
18:49:46 <wa5qjh> not that interested in them anymore. did have a forth for my commodores even got a General Instruments SPO-256-AL2 speech synthesizer chip and interfaced it to  the pet. had it saying red alert in less that one block.
18:50:20 <wa5qjh> had to have beenone of the first people to ever network 2 pets together.
18:51:43 <johnmark_> Have you tried using an emulator like VICE?
18:53:21 <wa5qjh> got too many vices already!!
18:53:42 <wa5qjh> ...groan....
18:53:58 <wa5qjh>  no, havent. what's that do ?
18:54:05 <johnmark_> I used a speech synthesizer from Radio Shack It may have been the same chip.
18:54:33 <wa5qjh> they sold the same cjip some years later.
18:54:46 <wa5qjh> same chip
18:55:04 <wa5qjh> this keyboard doesnt execute RPM
18:55:36 <johnmark_> An emulator like VICE, MAME, or MESS allows you to run PET software on a modern computer like Linux, Windows or MAC.
18:55:55 <wa5qjh> I use FreeBSD
18:56:25 <wa5qjh> avoid micro$loth like a plague!
18:56:43 <johnmark_> MESS will likely be avaliable for FreeBSD.
18:57:48 <johnmark_> Sometimes you can run a computer like the PET 100 times faster using an emulator.
18:58:07 <wa5qjh> mess-0.166_4                   Multiple Emulator Super System
18:58:16 <johnmark_> That is the one.
18:58:46 <wa5qjh> if I want faster or smaller,  I can use a jail
18:59:05 <wa5qjh> does mess do 6809 ?
18:59:22 <johnmark_> It can emulate over 100 systems.
18:59:34 <johnmark_> Yes it can do a 6809.
18:59:57 <wa5qjh> jail is what people in  the elat 4 years call a container like docker
19:00:08 <johnmark_> It can emulate arcade systems as well.
19:00:42 <wa5qjh> kool  gotta tell FatalNIX about that.  can you load a Forth into one?
19:00:57 <johnmark_> Yes.
19:01:00 <wa5qjh> I dont do arcades etc.
19:01:12 <wa5qjh> Nice.
19:01:20 <johnmark_> MESS give you everything but the ROMs.
19:01:36 <johnmark_> You have to find your own ROMs.
19:01:37 <wa5qjh> 68000 68020?
19:01:43 <FatalNIX> FreeBSD jails are nice, but jails are much older than docker
19:01:50 <FatalNIX> and imo much better
19:02:05 <johnmark_> I think it can 68k.
19:02:16 <johnmark_> I think it can do 68k.
19:02:21 <wa5qjh> yes, much older. learned yesterday, solaris had themas 'Zone's'
19:02:44 <FatalNIX> I'm currently upgrading my 11.0 to 11.1
19:02:46 <FatalNIX> FreeBSD
19:02:55 <wa5qjh> been using jails since 2007,  I think
19:02:58 <FatalNIX> gptta fix some lib troubles
19:03:25 <wa5qjh> but FreeBSD had them some time before.  I just didnt know about them.
19:03:27 <FatalNIX> every once in a while upgrading the ports tree can breakl gthings
19:04:05 <wa5qjh> Yes, and that's one of the tings jails are good for.
19:04:23 <wa5qjh> didnt know you knew FreeBSD. 
19:04:33 <wa5qjh> so few people do.
19:05:17 <wa5qjh> did you know the boot code for FreeBSD is done in forth? pfe forth specifically?
19:05:19 <FatalNIX> I've been using FreeBSD since about FreeBSD 5.x
19:05:34 <FatalNIX> back then the installer was really horrible
19:05:42 <FatalNIX> it came on multiple CDs, 3 I think..
19:05:47 <wa5qjh> wow!! nice!! me about since 2.2 or before. 
19:06:06 <FatalNIX> and it'd be like, you need to install this but its on disc 3 put in disc 3
19:06:08 <FatalNIX> so you do that
19:06:15 <FatalNIX> 1 file later itd be like, oh yeah I need program foobar
19:06:21 <FatalNIX> but it's on disc one, put disc one back in..
19:06:26 <wa5qjh> when I first subscribed to walnut creek FreeBSD's it was only 2 CD's
19:06:28 <FatalNIX> and it'd do that for like .. 45 minutes of your time
19:07:14 <wa5qjh> Yup!! I had forgotten about that!!
19:07:39 <FatalNIX> now synth exists
19:07:46 <FatalNIX> and you can queue up an entire ports system repository
19:07:54 <FatalNIX> and cpus are much faster, so compiling your entire system is so fast
19:08:01 <wa5qjh> so, how about pcbsd or TrueOS? do either of those ?
19:08:13 <FatalNIX> it's so fast and easy to deploy a self configuring and compiling system set accross a server farm now
19:08:25 <FatalNIX> I never touched em. I have used openbsd just a little
19:08:56 <wa5qjh> I havent.  think I downloaded it once but never had the space to put it. 
19:10:00 <wa5qjh> similarly,  I have a dragonflydownloaded but not installed. are you suing ZFS?
19:10:21 <wa5qjh> ...using...
19:10:59 <wa5qjh> the FreeBSD11-RELEASE I'm on  right now still uses UFS
19:11:03 <FatalNIX> last time I used zfs was on my dual Pentium 3 system with 7 scsi drives
19:11:27 <FatalNIX> UFS tends to have a decent performance/ram ratio
19:12:06 <wa5qjh> I'm so used  to that, that when the new bsd installer asked for the mount point.  I put a / not knowing it wanted something like tank or zpool...
19:12:54 <FatalNIX> the new installer is fairly nice
19:13:24 <wa5qjh> the one neat thing about pcbsd and trueos is that on top of zfs,  they also use beadm  to create 'boot enviornments' 
19:13:34 <FatalNIX> it addresses a lot of the feature expansion problems the old one had
19:13:39 <FatalNIX> sysinstall was it?
19:13:41 <wa5qjh> you mean for 11 or for 12?
19:13:55 <FatalNIX> the one since 9+
19:14:23 <wa5qjh> yes! sysinstall.  I liked that one.  helped me do a lot of things I didnt otherwise know how to do.
19:14:39 <FatalNIX> yeah but it was very limited 
19:14:47 <FatalNIX> I'm glad they replaced it
19:15:29 <wa5qjh> was not too happy  wioth the 11 installer but mostly because I didnt understand about that mount point.
19:15:56 <FatalNIX> slackware's installer hasnt changed at all... heh
19:16:17 <wa5qjh> I wound up building this UFS install from scratch! i.e. base.txz, kernel.txz, ..... etc.
19:17:03 <FatalNIX> I had to do shenanigans to get it to tripple boot with some win10 box once
19:17:14 <wa5qjh> never used slackware, have used ubuntu, thendebian, and centos some 7-9 years ago outa curtiosity and not for long.
19:17:40 <FatalNIX> I like Slackware Linux because like Freebsd, it stays out of my face
19:18:19 <FatalNIX> lets me do what I want without sitting me in somebody elses sandbox with half built sand castles
19:21:20 <wa5qjh> got a buddy down in Austin  that used to use slackware all the time.  think he's gotten lazy tho andhas moved to ubuntu. :)
19:21:54 <wa5qjh> so, have you looked at the /boot.4th files ? 
19:22:49 <wa5qjh> gotta say, some of them are very nicely written. I havent been witth Forth in a long time and am just starting to try to relearn it.
19:23:26 <wa5qjh> drat!!   /boot/*.4th like loader.4tjh ?
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19:39:49 <wa5qjh> FatalNIX have you seen allanJude's books on ZFS?
19:41:23 <johnmark_> I am back
19:45:30 <johnmark_> The emulator tends to need to run on a computer that is 1,000 times faster then the computer it is emulating.
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19:47:18 <wa5qjh> 1K ???
19:48:17 <johnmark_> A good emulator will try to emulate the color of the video.  Even when the video is modulated by some software trick.
19:49:01 <wa5qjh> it was funny, way back.the Amiga running on a 68000 could emulate it's nearesr neighbor the IBM on an 8086 and run faster than  the 8086!
19:49:36 <johnmark_> Well 1k is a guess but it is emulating the hardware also.
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19:51:21 <johnmark_> Emulator tend not to be perfect.
19:51:42 <johnmark_> But they are very close.
19:54:45 <johnmark_> Well the Tandy Color Computer could run OS9/6809 which offered multi-tasking.
19:55:55 <johnmark_> Having multi-tasking back in 1984 or so was a big deal.
19:57:22 <wa5qjh> NO KIDDING!! & I used it quite a bit with that uniflex. which could stil run flex as a task too!!
19:57:30 <johnmark_> I did not use OS9 back in 1986.  But I pick it up about 7 years ago.
19:58:41 <wa5qjh> I'll have to dig up my stuff on a direct threaded interpreter for the 6809. 
19:59:05 <johnmark_> The first computer I used was a TRS-80 Model 1.  I just played with the one in the Radio Shack Store.
19:59:18 <wa5qjh> just wish  I could find my friend that wrote it. he adapted it from PDP-11 DTI
19:59:37 <johnmark_> The a friend got a TRS-80 Color Computer.
19:59:43 <johnmark_> Then a friend got a TRS-80 Color Computer.
19:59:54 <wa5qjh> one James Brakefield.
20:00:19 <johnmark_> Then my School got some Apple IIe or something.
20:00:47 <johnmark_> Then I got a Tandy Pocket Computer 3 (PC-3).
20:01:03 <johnmark_> Then I got a Tandy Color Computer 2.
20:01:22 <wa5qjh> I had forh on my palm pilot even
20:02:45 <johnmark_> I mostly ran BASIC and Assembly.
20:03:20 <wa5qjh> was a palm IIIe
20:03:33 <wa5qjh> had c on it too
20:03:42 <johnmark_> Wow.
20:05:03 <johnmark_> I have recently stated learning Verilog.
20:05:53 <johnmark_> I would like to make a simple CPU using verilog.
20:05:56 <wa5qjh> wrote an app to do transmission line characteristics
20:06:35 <johnmark_> Sounds good.
20:06:58 <johnmark_> I remember using smith charts in collage.
20:07:07 <wa5qjh> rf transmission line and antenna length
20:07:38 <johnmark_> Are you a ham radio operator?
20:07:55 <wa5qjh> yup
20:08:07 <wa5qjh> that's why  the wa5qjh
20:08:12 <johnmark_> Yes!
20:08:32 <johnmark_> I was kb5lou but I let my license laps
20:10:17 <johnmark_> I live close to Motorola and I know a number of hams.
20:11:59 <wa5qjh> 'we' have a motorola close to San Antonio but up in austin on Ed Bluestein Blvd.   but that was eons ago for me. assume they still  there tho as FreeScale
20:13:49 <wa5qjh> kb5?  thought you up in Ill.?
20:14:12 <wa5qjh> some time back,  I guess.
20:14:20 <johnmark_> Someone else got my call letters.
20:14:40 <johnmark_> Someone named lue I think
20:14:53 <wa5qjh> shame! my first call was wn5gnf as a novice.
20:15:23 <johnmark_> I lived TX back in 1990.
20:15:26 <wa5qjh> about '60-62? cant remember exactly.
20:16:40 <wa5qjh> ( see the song 'I was born about 10,000 years ago' but not the Elvis version)
20:18:21 <wa5qjh> I had just left in Feb 90. I left and it started raining. had been a drought.
20:18:58 <wa5qjh> many respects wish  I hadnt. had a good job at Kelly AFB
20:19:33 <wa5qjh> damned sight better than what I went o,too.
20:20:26 <johnmark_> I just stated a clonezilla backup on my Windows computer.
20:21:23 <wa5qjh> "Failure is not an optionj. It comes bundeled with your microsoft product"
20:21:25 <johnmark_> I was in Fort Worth next to Calswell AFB
20:21:53 <wa5qjh> My #2 son hates when I say that.he works there!
20:22:38 <wa5qjh> had it as a tagline when I sent him email 
20:23:08 <wa5qjh> which he would read on his M$ phone.  M$ micro$loth
20:23:53 <johnmark_> Did you get hit by the Huricane?
20:24:33 <wa5qjh> Went to Air Force Engineering Technical Service at Edwards,  then Okinawa ( instead of Clark )because of Pinatubo.
20:25:53 <wa5qjh> had orders in my hand to goto clark. then pinatubo blew and I would up in okinawa instead. Well, better there than Korea but I wound up in korea for 2 years anyhow.
20:26:38 <johnmark_> I was working for a defence contractor in Forth Worth called General Dynamics in 1988-1991.
20:27:00 <wa5qjh> which hurricane? you mnean typhoonout here. . if you mean the one that hit Leyte in 13,  Yeah, we did.  it and 2 or 3 more after it.
20:28:06 <johnmark_> Oh.  I must be mixed up.  I must not know where the Philippians are.
20:28:29 <wa5qjh> My dad 'sold' the last B-58 that left Kelly field long before that.  but made several visits up to GD in Dallas way before you got there.
20:29:53 <wa5qjh> we're at UTC+8 south of Japan. north of singapore east of Vietnam
20:29:56 <johnmark_> I just looked up the Philippines.  I see now.
20:30:29 <wa5qjh> I'm at 11.902N 124.784E
20:30:33 <johnmark_> It is almost bed time for me.
20:30:39 <wa5qjh> Tarangnan W. Samar
20:30:58 <wa5qjh> I'm ready for anap myself :)
20:31:34 <johnmark_> Well I think you will enjoy emulators.
20:32:01 <johnmark_> Have a good nap.
20:33:27 <wa5qjh> what I\d like to find is what they used to call a 'Terget compiler'  withing Forth, It would create a small forth package togetther with your code and set it up to run as a binary without the forth package that built it.
20:33:57 <wa5qjh> maybe hasa new name now. wonder if gforth has it.
20:35:28 <wa5qjh>  or pfe forth
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21:36:02 <DGASAU> It is just a compiler in Forth speak.
21:36:17 <DGASAU> Nothing fancy.
21:36:28 <DGASAU> In fact, all of them are pretty primitive.
21:37:01 <DGASAU> Somewhat reminiscent of early 70s.
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