00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.05.16 00:26:56 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:30:27 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Remote host closed the connection) 01:12:45 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.139) joined #forth 01:32:25 --- join: MrBusiness3 (~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be) joined #forth 01:35:14 --- quit: MrBismuth (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 04:10:27 < izabera> why not make everything a float? -- js also doesn't give you direct access to memory. what a mess it would be, trying to do arithmetic and having to keep up with what's an address and what's a float 04:13:48 --- quit: cp__ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 04:33:10 asm.js does handle that. 04:33:37 You're right in so far asm.js is a bit of a mess. :-) 04:41:13 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:42:25 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:43:25 I briefly considered the idea for my own forth, but then immediately ditched it when that aspect occurred to me. I guess it could work in a simple way if you restrict yourself to only 32-bit addresses and then encode them as doubles, so that literally everything is a double, but I didn't want to do that 04:44:23 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-g@49.228.104.92) joined #forth 04:44:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 04:44:53 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.127.213) joined #forth 04:48:36 floats on the same stack, to me, seems to be a bit of a botch. in particular code written for a unified stack will often break when there's a separate stack and vice versa 05:02:26 --- quit: meta4 (Quit: That's it for today) 05:02:44 well sure, code written for two stacks would break, but what's the problem with starting with only one stack? 05:45:46 I've only ever used Forths with two stacks. trying to do one stack is clumsy after you have two 05:46:30 when you say direct access to memory 05:46:33 what do you mean exactly? 05:59:18 forth systems typically give the programmer access to their addressable memory space. You can read/write arbitrary addresses in this freely. 06:11:46 does this include the stack? 06:12:36 and the words you define? 06:14:53 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:15:55 the stack is often a different area, separate from the addressable memory 06:16:10 words are typically stored in the addressable memory 06:19:36 this means that you can define/redefine words without using : 06:19:37 right? 06:20:05 if that's the case, can you show an example? 06:20:32 in theory, though the exact mechanics will be implementation specific 06:20:47 why is this even allowed 06:22:06 and how do you know that a certain memory position is not used by something important like word definitions? 06:22:16 in my forth: 06:22:28 :foo #12 putn nl ; 06:22:28 foo 06:22:28 here &foo !Heap &Compiler v:on #33 * ; !Heap 06:22:28 #3 foo .s 06:23:32 you really don't know. Typically I'd consider anything before 'here' as used/important unless you know exactly what you're doing. 06:31:10 i just took a nap and had a dream about an architecture where pointers were floats and wrapped around, and one did array accesses by using an exponent such that the lsb of the mantissa corresponded to the element size. and i blame this channel :) 06:33:06 izabera: most forths don't do much to protect the user from themselves 06:33:16 gforth does some checks on alignment & such 06:34:18 IIRC 4th actively tries to be crashproof 06:35:05 and i thought c was unsafe 06:36:45 for me, this is a major part of why forth is fun 06:37:14 oh yes corrupting memory is so much fun 06:37:20 what is wrong with you 06:41:43 because not everybody lives in web world 06:42:07 I can't imagine embedded software development without having direct manipulation of the memory 06:42:58 but you said that the stack is separate 06:43:01 just because it's foreign and scary to you doesn't mean it isn't useful. all of your high-level languages, at some point, are built on top of something that does the scary low level stuff 06:43:15 izabera, for example right now i'm prototyping new hardware on breadboard. to access said hardware directly to test functionality, nothing is easier than forth 06:43:28 it allows for more flexibility in how you can mold the language and environment. E.g., I have words to inject some nop's at the start of a definition which I can later override with a jump to a different function. 06:44:43 the stack is often separate. it might be in hardware. or simulated through use of registers. or as part of a global memory pool. this is all implementation and hardware specific. :) 06:44:55 this is stupid 06:45:06 it kills most if not all possible compiler optimizations 06:45:18 --- part: z0d left #forth 06:45:26 --- join: z0d (~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d) joined #forth 06:45:39 then maybe forth isn't the language for you 06:47:46 you might as well be talking to a hardware guy and complaining that his rampant neglegance of a type system is reckless and dangerous 06:48:00 it's not relevant to him. he designs circuits. 06:50:14 you're basically restricting the whole language to quick and dirty hardware prototyping 06:50:34 I'm not restricting anything. you're welcome to do whatever you want with your forth 06:50:55 if you want to build a sandbox that protects you from hammering your thumb, you're welcome to do that 06:53:30 izabera: Matthias Koch gave a talk on his optimizing forth at CCC https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7520-compileroptimierungen_fur_forth_im_microcontroller 06:53:44 i don't speak german 06:54:29 There's a dubbed-in-English version on YouTube somewhere. 06:55:26 --- join: neceve (~ncv@79.113.69.183) joined #forth 06:55:26 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 06:55:26 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 06:56:42 http://cdn.media.ccc.de/congress/2015/mp3-translated/32c3-7520-en-Compileroptimierungen_fuer_Forth_im_Microcontroller.mp3 for the english audio for that 06:57:32 thanks 08:25:47 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@static-72-75-226-194.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 08:32:39 --- quit: cartwright (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 08:43:30 this was so painful in english -__- 08:46:40 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 08:53:40 --- quit: nerfur (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 09:41:14 --- join: nerfur (~nerfur@mail.freeside.ru) joined #forth 10:15:02 I haven't watched or listened to it. Bad translation or dictation? 10:24:41 there were two translators and they took turns and both got lost at some point 10:39:31 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:47:37 that's why just nobody should ever speak german 10:59:34 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 10:59:39 --- quit: irsol (Remote host closed the connection) 11:01:04 --- join: irsol (~irsol@unaffiliated/contempt) joined #forth 11:54:36 --- quit: MrBusiness3 (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 12:12:28 --- join: MrBusiness3 (~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be) joined #forth 12:31:21 --- join: zincing (~zincing@2a03:1b20:4:f011::24de) joined #forth 12:52:16 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-170-251.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 13:55:54 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 14:13:32 --- quit: Keshl (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 14:24:32 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 14:28:21 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:40:18 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.136) joined #forth 14:43:19 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@2601:2c2:c300:ff70:2cd6:7195:2650:c227) joined #forth 14:45:35 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14:46:06 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteusgu@180.183.122.24) joined #forth 14:47:02 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 14:54:45 --- join: Chef_Gromboli (~Chef_Grom@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 14:55:37 --- quit: Chef_Gromboli (Client Quit) 14:55:54 --- join: Chef_Gromboli (~Chef_Grom@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 15:04:47 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 16:00:31 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:02:09 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:08:45 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 16:08:58 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.136) joined #forth 16:11:26 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 16:52:40 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 17:10:23 --- join: neceve (~ncv@79.113.69.183) joined #forth 17:10:23 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 17:10:23 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 17:19:31 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.185.149.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 17:31:14 --- join: nighty-- (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 17:38:05 --- quit: dual (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 17:46:50 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 18:26:29 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.134) joined #forth 18:36:41 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 18:39:58 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 18:43:29 --- join: jjkkleee (4d7d34ea@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.125.52.234) joined #forth 18:44:07 hello forthers, anyone know where i can find: Lawrence Forsley, "Recursive Data Structures," 1982 FORML Conference Proceedings, Forth Interest Group, San Carlos, Calif., 1982. ? 18:44:56 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:31:09 final call, where is: Lawrence Forsley, "Recursive Data Structures," 1982 FORML Conference Proceedings, Forth Interest Group, San Carlos, Calif., 1982.? 19:40:48 cya later, stack negators ;) 19:40:55 --- quit: jjkkleee (Quit: Page closed) 19:46:22 --- join: varuaa (~kvirc@pool-100-2-162-136.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:10:35 --- join: pickyfingers (~quassel@pool-100-2-162-136.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:14:28 --- quit: pickyfingers (Remote host closed the connection) 20:14:34 --- quit: varuaa (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 20:14:57 --- join: varuaa (~quassel@pool-100-2-162-136.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:15:04 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 20:28:50 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 20:31:29 --- quit: varuaa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:48:53 --- join: varuaa (~quassel@pool-100-2-162-136.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:55:09 --- quit: varuaa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:58:33 --- join: varuaa (~quassel@pool-100-2-162-136.nycmny.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 21:22:04 --- quit: Chef_Gromboli (Quit: Leaving) 21:36:02 jjkkleee: I have about 300 copies of 1982 FORML Conference Proceedings in a storage locker in California. I would be happy to send you a copy when I return from Boston. 21:37:44 Oh. offline. Too slow. 22:08:12 --- quit: varuaa (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 22:09:55 pointfree: who about photographing them and publish it online forever? 22:48:16 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.144) joined #forth 23:02:40 --- quit: zincing (Quit: Leaving) 23:19:42 I'm guessing it could be slightly tedious. 23:20:08 Can we get 300 volunteers? 23:37:11 how many hours of work are needed? 23:37:36 larsb: how many pages it is? 23:37:55 the problem might be getting 300 volunteers that care enough about Forth, in the location where the documents physically are 23:57:57 --- join: impomatic (~digital_w@host86-186-214-85.range86-186.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.05.16