00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.05.12 00:01:15 this is interesting 00:03:59 I'd say from reading Charles Moore, that Forth evolved from a simple command line interpreter. 00:04:23 In this setting, having parameters on a stack was probably a convenient solution. 00:04:34 As opposed to explicit parameters. 00:04:51 you mean easier to implement? 00:05:00 that 00:05:00 Yes. 00:06:00 Moore has written an article called Forth - The Early Years. 00:06:09 It explains how Forth grew. 00:06:42 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 00:15:43 larsb: oh. you are *that* larsb. respect. 00:16:29 who is that larsb 00:19:00 looking at his info - Brinkhoff ) 00:19:56 I also wonder! 00:20:49 larsb, I lost the link to your forth implementation, could try what you have on an atmega, possibly even develop it a bit 00:20:56 --- join: jiasdjasidj (~oaijsdioa@175.20.93.53) joined #forth 00:21:14 I have an assembler. 00:21:21 For plain AVR8. 00:21:48 For full Forth, I need to rearrange things for Harvard architectures. 00:23:00 https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/lbForth/blob/master/doc/kernel32.txt what is this for 00:23:05 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:23:18 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 00:23:23 isabera: That's some reference information I used for the Windows port. 00:23:32 I should clean out the doc directory. 00:28:20 Hey, I should promote the Forth community on GitHub. 00:28:38 https://github.com/ForthHub 00:29:10 We should reach the 200 person mark soon. 00:29:21 https://github.com/neilk/HeartForth what the fuck 00:30:12 how does one get into that group? 00:30:29 pay the entrance fee 00:30:33 By invitation. 00:30:55 That's the way all GitHub organizations work. There's no way to request membership. 00:31:07 But just send me your GitHub user name. 00:31:11 i still don't have a github account 00:31:35 larsb: it's "call-cc" 00:31:42 would rather host locally all else equal 00:31:43 Ooh, and a great name it is. 00:32:03 usually people don't get it though :-( 00:32:57 GitHub will now send you an email. 00:33:50 thank you! 00:39:48 ah. right. i do have an account there from some bug reports. may i have an invite too? 00:39:58 Sure, it's open to everyone! 00:40:30 username is same as my nick 00:41:40 There ya go. 00:45:24 danke/takk/tak/tack 00:45:32 --- nick: jiasdjasidj -> smokeink 00:49:20 https://forthhub.github.io/ looks sad 00:49:26 Yes. 00:51:56 why did you say 200 people? 00:55:22 I'm not sure what everyone else can see, but as the owner of the organization, I see 185 members. 00:56:58 http://i.imgur.com/fN0oCDb.png 00:57:18 Right, that's what non-members see. 00:57:56 that is topics 00:58:04 is see 185 members 00:58:19 That's the member view. 00:58:33 You can choose whether your membership is public or not. 01:01:58 --- join: poldy75 (~dbane@88.87.191.50) joined #forth 01:04:33 totally off-topic: have people here used the swiss micros hp clones after early 2012? and has the display contrast improved to where i could pester them for a new display? 01:04:50 this one is horribly dark, and the problem is with the polarizing reflector 01:05:42 --- quit: poldy75 (Client Quit) 01:06:30 --- quit: nerfur (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:24:28 --- join: nerfur (~nerfur@mail.freeside.ru) joined #forth 01:27:11 luckily my rpn calculator is an elektronika mk-61 01:27:20 :P 01:27:44 i have a genuine hp-48g but it is not the same vibe and it is in a storage unit i can't reach :( 01:28:23 have never used a soviet rpn calculator 01:28:26 or any other soviet calculator 01:29:41 the keyboard is a bit crude and it isn't the fastest, but it's reasonably accurate and the display is excellent 01:29:44 I only have a Ti 89 Titanium and a Ti 200 Voyager. but they're not RPNs 01:30:09 onre: You're aware that there are several good Forths for AVR, right? 01:31:16 larsb, yes, completely 01:31:34 the stuff i'm doing runs on amforth now 01:32:13 You still think there is a need for more? :-) 01:33:34 now that is a good question 01:35:27 how large are these computers anyway? 01:35:48 They're microcontrollers. 01:36:17 Which can mean RAM and flash in the few Ks. 01:36:26 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:36:28 Lovely little things. 01:38:35 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteus-g@180.183.250.20) joined #forth 01:43:43 indeed. 01:49:42 communication skills fail: telnetted into magic-1, saw there was a (subset) c compiler that outputted assembly language but no assembler. made a little postscript document that read "No self-hostable as for cc back-end? Contact me: wb@epilogue.org" and ran lp on it since there seemed to be an attached printer now realize it might not have been clear from that that i was volunteering to write one 01:50:06 not sure either if the printer (described as "laserjet") has a postscript interpreter :P 01:51:58 in any case, i am really impressed with the project 01:57:02 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice day.) 02:00:27 just write an assembler in postscript 02:01:31 one could 02:01:36 sort-of 02:01:46 except that postscript doesn't have a concept of stdout 02:02:01 could write an assembler that wrote a hex dump to the page to be OCR'ed 02:03:10 then render the binary :-> 02:03:30 write an assembler that outputs valid documents that happen to also be valid executables 02:05:08 eh not necessarily possible depending on output format 02:05:20 i have, in fact, written raw postscript 02:07:10 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:11:43 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteus-g@180.183.250.20) joined #forth 02:20:12 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 02:24:25 onre: i don't imagine there is any finnish forth channel? 02:24:36 none that i know of 02:24:47 voe 02:27:50 i dare to speculate that most finns, who are into programming at all, have enough command of english language to come to international channels 02:28:19 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:28:20 most likely 02:29:26 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:29:45 i'm not sure whether it's only my viewpoint or something, but in the last 20 years i haven't noticed any kind of strong finnish-language online programmer community 02:30:30 they were very active in the demoscene though 02:30:35 in the '90s 02:30:54 finnish-language online programmer community 02:31:01 they all combines to create Linus :-D 02:31:07 *combined 02:31:41 z0d yup, that was a great time 02:31:52 indeed, it was 02:32:08 amiga? ;-) 02:32:11 there is #lisp.fi which is mostly dead now, and a couple other fora 02:33:49 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteus-g@180.183.250.20) joined #forth 02:35:09 ZX Spectrum, C=64, Amiga 02:35:35 zx always was and still "alive" in ex-ussr 02:35:43 I have set up www.lisp.se, but it's the same thing. 02:35:52 in latter half of '90s pc's were everywhere 02:36:12 Why talk to three other Swedish guys when you can talk to dozens in English? And only a few of them manhandles the language horribly. 02:36:25 that's the thing indeed 02:37:12 larsb: #asm on ircnet used to be almost 100% swedes 02:37:28 now it is afaik mostly russians 02:38:06 The Russians are strong programmers, but they seem to keep to themselves mostly. 02:38:30 It wouldn't surprise me if 50% of all Forth professionals are Russian. 02:39:54 would not surprise me either 02:41:51 larsb: you iirc ran the last ITS site anywhere? 02:42:06 No, rather the newest. 02:42:18 It's the gang of Swedes again. 02:42:57 but, the last ITS site to run on real metal? 02:43:19 There is no such thing in continuous operation. 02:43:35 Various people has machines offline. 02:44:36 speaking of which, i wanted to get myself some older hardware just recently. even finding a dumb terminal proved rather challenging, which felt slightly odd given that these things could be exchanged for a sixpack of beer in '90s 02:44:52 onre: yeah :/ 02:45:06 There's an ITS running in an FPGA, but that's not real real metal, is it? 02:45:12 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 02:45:42 I'm holding on to my VT220 rather tightly. 02:45:52 larsb: i guess it is, but i thought the last ITS site on either DEC or clone TTL hardware was under your care 02:46:09 Nope, never had any PDP-10 hardware. 02:46:18 onre: yeah :/ as recently as 2005 i worked at a palce that had a nokia vt220 clone for irc 02:46:23 larsb: ok nm 02:46:35 s/palce/place/ 02:46:51 I can barly fit another rPi into my apartment. It's full of kids and stuff. 02:47:02 in the 90s i had a load of terminals but i left them with my mother when i left home and now they are gone :/ 02:50:04 RPI is a nice board 02:50:06 there's a car spare part dealer in nearby city who has a nokia vt220 clone still. every time i ask for some part for my lada, he does something with the terminal and goes fetch the part. one of these times i ask him what it's connected to. 02:50:18 I gave my son a VT420. There's an rPi attachech which boots into Forth. 02:50:50 onre, maybe it's the last PDP-10. 02:52:38 --- quit: dual (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:55:26 larsb: is there a special image for that? 02:58:48 No. It's just Raspian with mods to make ttyUSB0 start a Forth executable. 02:58:58 ah 02:59:13 so gforth? 02:59:30 My own lbForth. 02:59:34 ah :) 02:59:43 of course 03:01:22 i have a rpi (actually 3) but mostly just use it as a cheap router 03:01:31 "cheap" 03:01:55 That's the thing. People buy them in droves, but don't quite seem to know what to do with them. 03:02:05 $40 + $10 for sd card is pretty cheap 03:02:36 "i wanted a cheap router so i bought this thing with 1ghz cpu and 512mb ram" 03:02:38 "Oooohh, the Zero is just five bucks, let's have ten!" 03:03:02 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.127.213) joined #forth 03:03:05 izabera: yes i could get a tv tuner card and dvd drive for it :P 03:03:12 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 03:03:27 also i run a usb drive on it and target backups from my vps there :P 03:03:45 it is a lot of computer for $40 03:04:19 I want a RISCberry-V. 03:04:42 larsb: hm. not familiar 03:05:51 it's made up 03:06:05 It's a Raspberry Pi with a RISC-V! I intented it myself! 03:07:09 It's 59% better than a Pi, so it must be good. 03:07:18 larsb: ah. have not looked into risc-v other than to know it exists 03:08:18 i bought a raspbery pi and an arm cortex m4 board at the same time for a project where the latter was plenty but wanted to have the former for quick and dirty prototyping 03:09:20 and another rpi for a lan party when i didn't have the first rpi handy. then a third rpi because the version 3 has on-board wifi and support for higher usb current draw when i left my powered usb hub and ethernet dongle in storage :P 03:11:09 I'll buy an FPGA dev kit, because then I can actually learn something new. 03:11:44 An of course, make my own stack processor like any self-respecting Forth programmer. 03:11:54 right 03:12:07 i ordered the nand2tetris book a few days ago for that reason :P 03:12:31 even though most of it is things i am familiar with, it looks like a gentle introduction to hardware description 03:12:53 I've done the hardware part of the nand2tetris course, it's good 03:13:12 http://nand2tetris.org/course.php 03:13:20 yes 03:15:37 It's not VHDL or Verilog, is it? 03:15:49 No 03:16:22 I'm thinking resume skill checklist. 03:16:54 i'm terrible at that 03:17:20 You might be surprised "tetris" isn't a hit with the recruiters. 03:17:43 i'm good at designing things in a way that are fault tolerant, and if they do fail, are intuitive enough (to me) that i can debug them on call 3am on a saturday at 0.2% bac 03:17:48 but there isn't a good keyword for that 03:18:09 "Common sense"? 03:18:17 something like that 03:18:46 You're right, it's not a know buzzword in our industry. 03:19:35 http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/1/5/0/9/5/4/a5150316-243-Super-Power-Common-Sense.jpg 03:23:12 something like a sense of code smell and intuitions good enough to generate iteratively refineable code by sense of smell even when the generator is broken 03:23:19 there should be a buzzword for that 03:23:50 My code sense is tingling! :P 03:24:08 There's a GeDaMo on GitHub. Would he like to join the ForthHub group? 03:24:35 Sure but I don't have anything there 03:24:55 It's all about headcount now. 03:25:10 i don't either. i only created an account to complain about ansible being broken :P 03:25:29 Yeah, ok :D 03:26:03 Ah, I remembered my password 03:27:13 there's an onre in there as well iirc 03:27:24 Do I request membership or do you send an invite? 03:28:03 Yeah, got it 03:29:14 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 03:30:53 But when the singularity comes, you know where to find forthers that can bootstrap a new society. 03:32:49 :P 03:35:11 There is some of my code already on ForthHub https://github.com/ForthHub/ForthFreak/blob/master/FunForth 03:39:59 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:42:48 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.219.178) joined #forth 03:42:58 --- join: nighty-- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:08:29 larsb: hehe 04:49:55 --- join: proteus-guy (~proteus-g@49.229.52.200) joined #forth 05:04:13 --- join: meta4 (~jgw@c-24-8-47-119.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:04:51 cr .( hey) . 05:05:26 stack underflow 05:06:03 * meta4 exposed as noob 05:07:43 nice to see there's an active group; will likely have a few questions once I dive in 05:08:46 welcome 05:37:09 larsb: last SU.FORTH was in 2015, and it was the question "anyone alive?", before that last non-elementary and non-historical discussion was around 2010. So, Russian programmers are sane enough to abandon Forth. :) 05:37:35 larsb: approximately at that time the lead SP-Forth developer has rewritten his web site from Forth into PHP. :) 05:37:48 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 05:44:45 who's OForth? 05:51:23 and DGASAU is back :-D 05:51:32 black fallen knight of Forth :-D 05:56:04 Thanks for the info, DGASAU! 06:18:14 DGASAU, And you expected that Russian programmers are still using Fidonet and modem access? :) 06:18:47 SU.FORTH was abandoned more than 10 years ago. 06:19:07 true-grue, hah, you want to tell me that they got ethernet? and bears don't break it while drunk with vodka? ) 06:20:38 nerfur, Well, I must admit that feq of them have access to Kremvax node, but majority is living in Syberian gulags with bears and stuff, of course. 06:21:10 Hey, kremvax is back up I think. 06:22:09 nope, http://kremvax.demos.su/ 06:22:18 Yope, https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/blob/4.3BSD/uucp.png 06:22:25 This is the new uucp. 06:23:03 :-D 06:23:30 how you got this secret info, protected by Putin's blessing himself? ) 06:23:37 UUPC! Ah, the memories... :) 06:28:48 If you get an email from GitHub, it's just em. 06:30:03 larsb, Yes, I got the email. Do you collect forhers? :) 06:30:25 Yes. I lure them into a cave. 06:31:06 I thought it was grues who lured people into caves :| 06:31:18 Nah, I mostly want to increase the visibility of Forth on GitHub. 06:31:33 There's actually a lot of Forth coding going on. 06:32:51 This is me starring everything with a "substantial" amount of Forth code in it: 06:32:54 https://github.com/ForthStar?tab=stars 06:33:19 This does NOT include a zillion half-done Forths in Go, Rust, JavaScript etc. 06:34:24 Oh, I think I need to place my Forth Wizard on github. I know that few people still use it for some reason :) 06:34:31 yeeeah, I'm counted as forther too ) tanks) 06:36:02 true-grue: this? http://www.sovietov.com/app/forthwiz.html 06:36:10 GeDaMo, Yes. 06:36:14 Neat :) 06:37:15 If solution is more than two words, print "you're doing something wrong". :-) 06:39:09 BTW, I also have web tool for mapping the program graph to S40/G144 chips. 06:39:13 http://www.sovietov.com/app/mapper/mapper_demo.html 06:44:54 That's impressive :O 06:45:34 larsb, i still can't see invitation 06:45:48 maybe I just fail at using github, though 06:58:42 --- join: neceve (~ncv@86.125.247.109) joined #forth 06:58:42 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 06:58:42 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 07:04:05 true-grue: few people used modem to access Fidonet since 2000. 07:05:01 Besides, SU.FORTH had FTN-USENET joint status. 07:06:53 DGASAU, I was using SU.FORTH since, I think, 1996, so I know that history well :) 07:09:21 Anyway, the community was slowly dying out ever, which is a good indicator for such a programming language. :) 07:14:04 I was meeting with Cherezov, author of SP-Forth, last year. He's not using Forth in his projects anymore. But I got the impression that he still plan to back to programming in Forth in some future. 07:17:00 Did he elaborate on reasons why? 07:21:30 He is working in a company, not for himself. They make web applications, middleware and there is no reason to rewrite everything in Forth. He needs to interoperate with other developers etc. 07:24:07 Didn't he run his own company? 07:24:46 Not now. 07:26:22 (Forth-based companies go bankrupt...) 07:53:26 --- quit: DGASAU (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:55:25 --- join: DGASAU (~user@lmpc.drb.insel.de) joined #forth 08:49:30 --- join: zincing (~zincing@2a03:1b20:2:f702::8de) joined #forth 08:59:42 --- quit: smokeink (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 10:07:39 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 10:08:49 --- quit: APic (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:18:35 --- join: APic (apic@apic.name) joined #forth 10:25:07 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-164-245.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:25:36 --- join: ff-mike (25882e0d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.136.46.13) joined #forth 12:01:13 flashforth seems rather nice 12:01:20 at least it's much harder to break than amforth 12:28:26 --- quit: ff-mike (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 13:23:18 --- quit: dys (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:44:02 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-40-3-9.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 13:49:42 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 13:52:53 larsb: Add me to ForthHub :) . 13:53:03 `DKordic'. 13:55:10 * CORDIC . o O ( : 0b 0 ; : 0 2* ; : 1 0 1+ ; ) 13:56:14 cute 14:23:08 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p4FE8D5ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 14:29:35 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 14:30:44 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 15:03:14 --- quit: zincing (Quit: Leaving) 15:12:52 --- join: dual (~bonafide@cpe-74-75-153-119.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:46:33 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 15:53:49 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:02:54 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 16:03:55 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@183.88.56.132) joined #forth 16:03:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 16:04:53 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 16:09:29 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:33:01 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:35:18 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:52:09 --- join: smokeink (~smoke@175.20.93.41) joined #forth 17:53:03 --- quit: proteus-guy (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 18:02:53 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:03:20 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:16:24 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 18:45:17 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice day.) 19:04:02 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 19:37:56 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:38:26 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:38:52 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:16:19 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:16:36 --- join: smokeink (~smoke@175.20.93.49) joined #forth 20:50:23 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 21:04:36 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Remote host closed the connection) 21:29:39 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 21:45:09 --- quit: wa5qjh (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:58:19 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 22:04:45 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 22:08:12 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 22:14:40 --- quit: wa5qjh (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:16:29 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.135) joined #forth 22:21:01 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 23:28:57 --- join: zincing (~zincing@2a03:1b20:2:f702::f1de) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.05.12