00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.05.04 00:30:50 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-40-3-86.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 01:12:31 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.219.178) joined #forth 01:13:30 --- join: Riviera (Riviera@2a03:b0c0:1:d0::10:b001) joined #forth 02:23:02 --- quit: Quozl` (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:29:29 --- join: Quozl` (~quozl@antitheft.laptop.org) joined #forth 04:01:14 --- quit: MrBusiness (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 04:18:11 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.127.213) joined #forth 05:32:46 --- mode: crc set +o koisoke 06:12:05 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:58:30 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 07:34:55 I seem to remember those Fox-Passaniti wars. 07:35:12 Fox used to write a lot of bullshit. 07:38:32 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:08:31 interesting, are there any possibility to create something like universal timezone 08:13:14 What do you call "universal timezone"? 08:14:30 idk) 08:14:49 Time zone is a concept that has pretty clear technological and physical background. 08:15:09 Coordinated Universal Time most likely 08:15:18 err, nevermind. 08:15:54 nvm, probably John infects me trough all his strange and meaningless PMs :-D 08:18:06 --- quit: DGASAU (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 08:18:17 --- join: DGASAU (~user@lmpc.drb.insel.de) joined #forth 08:37:27 nerfur: yeah, it is called UTC. 09:09:41 UTC is not a timezone 09:09:46 you mean GMT 09:10:40 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 09:22:46 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.219.178) joined #forth 09:24:29 zy]x[yz: do you understand the concept of time zone at all? 09:24:44 For instance, why were they introduced in the first place? 09:26:16 why are you asking me that? 09:26:42 Because once you understand the concept of time zone, you'll have your question answered, most likely. :) 09:27:16 where did I ask a question? 09:27:45 Ah, alright... Sorry, lost the track. :) 09:27:53 Wrong person. 09:28:15 Strictly speaking, "GMT" is not a time zone either. 09:28:29 GMT+0? 09:28:36 GMT was what UTC is now. 09:31:13 There are technical differences between GMT and UTC which I don't remember the details of 09:32:07 They don't matter, if you're not into some time-critical things. 09:32:59 And if you're not control freak. 09:33:42 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:33:48 https://www.timeanddate.com/time/gmt-utc-time.html "GMT is a time zone [...] UTC is not a time zone, but a time standard." And you've got to figure that a website called timeanddate.com must know what they're talking about 09:36:16 There's one easy question that refutes their bold statement. :) 10:01:30 can someone please explain to me this +* I see referenced every once in a while? 10:01:42 " multiply step opcode \ conditional nondestructive add opcode DUP 1 AND IF OVER + THEN" 10:01:58 It's an instruction in some of Chuck's chips 10:02:28 I don't understand what it's used for, though 10:04:42 It's part of multiplying 10:12:39 zy]x[yz: see page 8 of http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/DB001-110412-F18A.pdf 10:14:32 very nice, thanks 10:14:54 also calling left-shift 2* and right-shift 2/ is a great idea. I'm adopting that 10:15:16 had already renamed "negate" to -1* 10:15:18 You can use it to get a (poor) PRNG too :) 10:16:11 zy]x[yz: very roughly https://ideone.com/T4RVUe 10:16:51 The whole idea is to place it in a microloop. 10:19:11 zy]x[yz: if you write canonical multiplication, then your multiplication step is this "+*" and shift one bit. 10:19:36 (Or without shift even, depending on how you code it up.) 10:20:10 right, I understand. thanks! 11:11:24 zy]x[yz: I pretty much want to do away with timezones. Have UTC and have solar time which high noon is when the sun is at the zenith as seen from the place where the clock stands. 11:11:53 why 11:13:24 use the former for long distance co-ordination while use the latter for determining when you want your shop to be open during daylight hours. 11:14:48 I don't see zenith time providing anything but complexity 11:15:02 or solar time, whatever you want to call it 11:15:40 especially when you consider that high noon changes throughout the year 11:15:48 and also changes with latitude 11:16:06 so now you've taken a one-dimensional problem and made it a two-dimensional problem 11:16:15 it provides for the fact that we are animals that are used to diurinal cycles. 11:16:26 The problem has always been two-dimensional 11:17:15 okay, so what do you hope to see this solve 11:17:16 and timezones always have been illfitting one-dimensional 'solution'. 11:17:35 WTF? 11:17:53 Time zones were always solving exactly this problem. 11:18:29 not having to wake up at local solar 5 AM (when the clock is says it is 7 AM) to force yourself to work or school 11:18:36 that is for one. 11:18:53 DGASAU: solving it rather badly. 11:19:16 Good enough for every practical reason. 11:19:25 DGASAU: fine when communications were not faster than horse but it changed with telegramming. 11:20:07 Time zones are introduced exactly to deal with problems that appeared with telegraph. 11:20:36 If you travel no faster than horse (that is a lot _slower_ than human can), 11:20:41 you don't have this problem at all. 11:20:54 indeed 11:21:06 You can wake up at solar 5 or solar 7 and go to school. 11:21:28 what has happened is that timezones have then been usurped by politicans 11:21:33 If you want to communicate to people that are 100 km away, you can't do that with solar time. 11:22:37 DGASAU: I prefer solar 7 because a) it fits the dirunal sleeping cycle better (your sleep is not suddenly truncanated by two hours) and b) it is actually morning outside. 11:22:44 that is what UTC is for. 11:23:19 Whatever. 11:24:10 If you want to coordinate with people that are +-100 km around you, you want to have something better than solar time. 11:24:26 UTC doesn't help here. 11:24:28 yeah and UTC fits that bill. 11:24:36 UTC doesn't help at all. 11:25:09 „lets meet at place x at time y“ just works even with people that are teleconferencing in from half the world away 11:26:06 "Call me at 9 tomorrow," now you have to calculate local time of your respondent. 11:26:26 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 11:26:40 DGASAU: which what you have to do WITH timezones. With UTC you dont. 11:27:21 Only time zone solves this properly. 11:28:08 With UTC both of you have to calculate which time you want to make a call. 11:28:09 no, they dont. And I have been personally been bitten by it by people that have done timezones conversions incorrectly which happen more often than you think. 11:28:14 They do. 11:28:46 "Call me at 9 tomorrow... Or, I mean... Wait a minute, I'll calculate what is 9 in UTC..." 11:29:12 you are just making my case for me you know 11:29:20 No, I'm not. 11:29:32 It is exactly why you want time zone instead of UTC bullshit. 11:30:14 When your respondent is in the same time zone only 100 km away, or in near time zone, all you need is to tell him your time or add/subtract one hour. 11:30:52 When you don't have time zones but UTC, both of you have to convert local solar time to UTC and back. 11:31:21 DGASAU: yeah, that has worked so well. /sarc. This is exactly why people make these conversion mistakes. 11:31:51 DGASAU: my proposal is simply have all clocks show UTC AND optionally local solar time. 11:32:26 for instance, where I live noon is around 14:15 UTC 11:32:29 so every clock would have to be ntp-synched 11:33:03 zy]x[yz: or using GPS synchronization. 11:33:05 Zarutian: I think that you don't have experience since you live in a country that is smaller than city district. 11:33:44 yeah, no thanks. I'm perfectly fine with my bedside clock being capable of running on its own 11:33:51 DGASAU: yet I coordnate with people many 'timezones' away using UTC. And only UTC as that has proven best and least confusing 11:34:55 Consider that you want to run state school exams. 11:35:07 DGASAU: and are you meaning Australian city district because Iceland covers at least two timezones last I checked 11:35:49 If you don't want to open space for cheating, you want to split country into zones where pupils start at the same time. 11:36:04 Cool, you have invented time zones. 11:36:48 Same for other problems that require local coordination. 11:36:50 or just hold the exams at the same time everywhere? 11:37:44 or split the country by school districts and have variations of each exam? 11:37:44 So, some of your pupils should start exam at 6pm and finish at midnight? 11:38:26 "Split the country by school districts" is exactly introduction of time zones. :) 11:39:20 your version has the complication and edge case where one school or few schools stradle the 'timezone' demarcation. 11:40:04 They cannot stradle demarcation line, unless you're extremely stupid to draw it through schools. 11:40:54 DGASAU: that is what happens with your timezones, at least with school districts you dont get that. 11:41:10 It doesn't happen with time zones. 11:41:33 I think that you really live in a country that fits one zone. 11:41:51 That's why you don't understand how it is done, why, and consequences of it. 11:42:47 DGASAU: I live in a country whose timezone is quite big and I have seen the low level irritation and sufferage of it for a long time now. 11:43:10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_Russia_-_Time_Zones_(2016).svg 11:43:50 Note how borders of zones are not straight lines. ;) 11:44:10 I am well aware that Russia spans many many time zones. And many cities and district ignore their timezone placement exactly because of these issues. 11:44:52 How many are your "many"? 11:45:05 around 5-7 iirc. 11:45:23 I know the only reason why some towns ignore their time zone. 11:45:30 Do you know it? 11:46:00 because they dont have to wake up in the wee hours before morning? 11:46:06 Wrong. :) 11:46:26 or more precsisle dont want to 11:46:34 Wrong too. :) 11:47:19 Anyway, all the rest do follow local time. 11:49:02 Even those who have got their local time back quite recently, few months ago. 11:49:56 zy]x[yz: you dont want your bedside clock to be up to date? I think but I am not sure that GPS or some system of similiar coverage also transmits the current timezone map. 11:50:55 DGASAU: oh, dont get me started on the idiotacy which is Daylights Savings. 11:50:56 * DGASAU has "bedside clock" that follows DST. 11:51:04 Which is pretty nice. 11:52:05 do you have to reconfigure it when they change which dates the DST changes over? 11:52:41 Well... Theoretically, I could automate it, but I don't want to. 11:53:01 Automation isn't necessarily a good thing. 11:55:39 Zarutian: FYI, the only reason that is known to me for some town to ignore its time zone is that it is some small town that is also railroad hub. 11:56:00 Railways work 24x7, so they observe Moscow time. 11:56:40 If nearly all people work on railway, it is of no use to recalculate local time to Moscow time and back. 11:57:02 But even that is changing. 11:57:13 I know such hub that has went to local time recently. 11:57:33 I read a story about an shopowner that has had the same opening hours for long long time even though his state observed DST. What he did was to basically have two set of opening hour times on the sign outside. 11:59:04 Basically same hours of the day, expressed in 'summer time' and 'winter time'. 12:00:26 why did he do that? Because of his health. 12:00:28 Well... If he doesn't mind working during really hot hours in the evening in summer and getting up really early in winter... 12:01:08 Breaking circadian rhythm "because of health" is smart idea. :D 12:02:33 nope, he basically used an sextant to figgure out when the sun was at the zenith at four diffrent times of the year and figgured rather nice opening hours. 12:05:17 Well... If you don't need to coordinate with other people, you can ignore time and calendar at the same time. 12:06:38 he did coordinate with other people fine. The shipping companies did not mind, for instance. (Nearly all shipping companies use UTC or variant of Moscow time for coordination) 12:28:46 --- join: reepca (~user@std-001.cune.edu) joined #forth 13:02:44 well I think we can all agree that the best practice is simply to just never interact with other people 13:03:47 That's always been my policy :P 13:38:08 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 13:43:09 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:48:29 --- join: MrBusiness (~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:58c0:6ef4:1af7:138c) joined #forth 14:53:41 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 15:06:36 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 15:42:07 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:43:19 which makes using IRC a bold move 15:43:32 we're not all robots 16:02:25 dzho: well some here might be Tachikomas in disguise 16:13:38 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Quit: Ex-Chat) 16:13:43 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p57A2F590.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 16:42:50 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.137) joined #forth 16:47:19 --- quit: wa5qjh (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:55:56 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Leaving. Have a nice day.) 16:56:40 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.137) joined #forth 18:48:52 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 18:58:37 I need good words for a loop with this structure: jump-to-cond ( body ) resolve-the-"jump-to-cond" ( condition ) until ( conditionally jumps back to the start of body ) 20:18:32 how does that differ from begin .. while .. repeat ? 20:21:53 or begin .. until ; 20:24:28 i'm not quite sure from your descriptoin if the body is to be executed at least once or not 20:25:53 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:52:19 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8300:2fe0:a914:fbd5:ef6c:5092) joined #forth 20:53:44 --- part: John[Lisbeth] left #forth 22:08:44 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8300:2fe0:a914:fbd5:ef6c:5092) joined #forth 22:08:49 --- part: John[Lisbeth] left #forth 22:09:26 crc: koisoke proteus-guy do you guys there? joh[lisbeth] want to be unblock 22:09:35 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 22:15:27 --- mode: koisoke set +b john*!*user@2601* 22:17:14 (for randomly spamming people by privmsg for the last two weeks) 22:29:40 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 22:47:11 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.219.178) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.05.04