00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.04.20 00:19:14 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Remote host closed the connection) 01:25:26 --- quit: qzo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:40:58 --- join: qzo (~qzo@c-73-153-11-93.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 01:41:28 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 03:05:23 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.127.213) joined #forth 03:17:05 --- quit: clog (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 03:17:05 --- log: stopped forth/17.04.20 03:17:12 --- log: started forth/17.04.20 03:17:12 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 03:17:12 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | Forth Standards at http://forthworks.com/forth | www.greenarraychips.com | https://github.com/mark4th' 03:17:12 --- topic: set by crc!sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bvbpvizerlziiwww on [Wed Apr 19 13:11:34 2017] 03:17:12 --- names: list (clog GeDaMo true-grue qzo groovy2shoes MrBusiness3 dys DocPlatypus nighty-- DKordic` impomatic +proteusguy John[Lisbeth] dual koz_ karswell Quozl` fiddlerwoaroof yunfan M-jimt midre pdewacht joneshf-laptop LeCamarade Keshl zy]x[yz irsol dograt reepca rgrinberg ggherdov` jeremyheiler sigjuice_ carc phadthai Uniju Riviera xek pointfree[m] bedah nighty- coelebs DGASAU cartwright ovf z0d +bluekelp djinni malyn bavier APic newcup diginet2 nerfur rpcope @crc) 03:17:12 --- names: list (josh5tone cajg @koisoke dzho a3f pointfree taij33n) 03:17:32 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.136) joined #forth 03:23:27 is "1 1 + 1 1 + +" preferred style over "1 1 1 1 + + +"? I guess the former is easier to read. 03:24:06 all else equal less stack depth is better than more imo 03:24:35 or clearer 03:26:19 thanks 03:28:57 hp-15c has a stack four deep including tos and i rarely want to exceed that 03:29:10 (for arithmetic) 03:44:37 It depends on exactly what you're adding 03:44:42 and how well it is commented 03:52:36 sure, but if you should probably refactor something if you start doing things like: 1 2 3 4 dup swap over 5 * * * + + + 04:01:04 s/if// 04:02:02 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 04:03:52 Or you can try to find the paper " 04:03:53 The Generation of Optimal Code for Stack Machines" which was written in 1975... 04:11:39 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 04:11:46 what does that have to do with a question about human readability? 04:14:29 So the argument "Less stack depth is better" is related to readability somehow? :) 04:16:06 You're trying to do the same task as a compiler, but in manual and non-formal manner. I understand many forthers like to do everything in manual mode, but I suggest to do so according the algorithm from that article, nothing more :) 04:28:54 true-grue: is this paper freely available anywhere you know of? 04:29:34 --- join: DKordic`` (~user@178-221-95-82.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) joined #forth 04:30:05 If I were of a piratical turn of mind, I might mention sci-hub 04:30:35 --- quit: DKordic` (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:30:56 I'm not of a piratical mind, and I'll mention Sci-Hub. Academic publishers are vampires. 04:36:10 There are working links on the wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sci-Hub 04:41:16 thanks :) 04:49:05 I'll study this in some detail to see if I can apply it in one of my projects (a PL/0 to Forth translator) 05:16:55 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 05:48:22 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-164-174.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 06:04:28 --- join: nighty-- (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 06:12:09 I wonder how long it'll be before John[Lisbeth] attempts to rejoin the channel 06:13:17 He was banned finally? :) 06:15:17 not quite. I have him set to +q so he can join and read, but not talk 06:16:17 though if he sends me any more threats I'll switch that to a +b 06:16:39 Which is a more sinister punishment, of course :) 06:27:01 At this point I don't think I'll lift the +q. Having spent some time looking over his history from the logs and what appears to be his reddit account postings, I don't think he'll learn anything from this. 06:30:00 I think it's an interesting social phenomena. The languages like Forth or Lisp attract many strange persons :) 06:30:48 Also awk, in my experience. 8) 06:35:00 he appears to have shifted to forth from lisp. I suspect the lisp community rejected him at some point. 07:11:00 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 07:12:12 haha, threats? always a good indicator of a well-adjusted individual 07:14:23 #lua has had a couple of those, too 07:15:05 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 07:25:36 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@2601:2c2:c300:ff70:105:b14e:cc41:1b4f) joined #forth 08:31:25 huh, the Nga virtual machine looks to be much nicer than Ngarro was. 08:31:44 https://arcanesentiment.blogspot.co.uk/2010/07/inevitable-interpreter.html 08:46:04 hmm.. but IO is not specified. Wierd. 09:09:18 I add IO separately, with adaptions for each platform. 09:09:25 crc: I don't know about #lisp, but he still frequents #emacs 09:10:21 if he sends me any more threats <--- he PMing you with bad messages? 09:10:48 He did this morning. 09:10:51 true-grue: I guess it is not Forth/Lisp phenomena, it is good old - "not like everybody"/"too mainstream" 09:12:14 hipster 09:22:54 crc: memory mapped? How is an program in nga image supposed to discover what IO is aviable? 09:23:39 currently I extend the instruction set for I/O functions. 09:23:56 Nga is really intended to be used within a larger framework that should define it 09:24:04 it's I/O model and memory mappings 09:25:55 hmm... what I liked about DCPU-16 IO model was the discoverability/enumerability of IO and extension capabilities. 09:26:07 for retro, the code that handles i/o is in bridge.c: https://github.com/crcx/rx-nga/blob/master/source/bridge.c and is used by the top level wrapper rre.c: https://github.com/crcx/rx-nga/blob/master/source/rre.c 09:26:54 I'm still not quite certain how to proceed with standardizing IO on this yet 09:27:03 crc: havent read it yet, basically byte input and output meant for terminal access? 09:28:38 at a minimum, byte level output. I don't guarantee a byte level input (difficult to handle on things like iOS which lack a console type input model) 10:33:45 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 11:04:18 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:14:40 GeDaMo: that is pretty interesting. 11:15:16 The inevitable interpreter? Yeah, I thought it was an interesting view, the return stack as threaded code 11:17:03 well, I have seen a few forths (when I was looking for neat words to copy) that actually use the x86 stack pointer as colon-word instruction pointer. 11:18:07 makes code words pretty small and the addressing modes that are stack relative makes handling inlined data cells breeze. 11:18:42 Did they use esi for the data stack? 11:19:56 some did, some did not. 11:20:38 That would seem to be the most obvious one to me, pop and lodsd essentially do the same thing except you can specify which register with pop 11:24:27 one thing I have never understood is why CISCs were so popular. All those addressing modes, special edge cases and such make for a rather expensive chip at those days prices. 11:24:49 I guess because RISC expect a lot from programmers 11:24:53 and compiler writers 11:25:41 The study that lead to RISC found that most instructions weren't used by compilers 11:26:15 That's right. 11:26:57 Compiler writers dislike those autoincrements, loops and other things from CISC. 11:27:46 Still, if you want to do more actions in one cycle you should use something other than plain RISC. 11:28:26 why try to do more actions in one cycle? have smaller cycles but more frequent ones. 11:31:35 Well, it's an old dilemma, which is better -- ILP or many tiny cores. In fact, any core architecture has unremovable overheads like register files, memory, instruction sequencing etc. 11:35:19 well, many tiny cores that have their own wram and communicate by synchronizing ports is pretty well suited for computing organized on FlowBasedProgramming lines. But people wanted their old badly cobbled together single threaded (or multithreaded but shared memory) programs to run faster, faster pogocat! 11:38:10 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:48:01 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:49:14 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:55:18 --- join: Mat4 (~claude@ip5b410455.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 13:03:14 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Mat4) 13:28:48 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:39:09 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 14:17:44 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 14:27:38 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:45:37 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.152) joined #forth 15:02:05 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 15:03:28 --- join: karswell (~user@36.91.199.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 15:06:26 --- join: leaverite (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.152) joined #forth 15:06:57 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 15:06:58 --- nick: leaverite -> wa5qjh 15:38:45 --- nick: MrBusiness3 -> MrBusiness 16:13:59 --- quit: nighty-- (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 16:20:47 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 16:55:31 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 17:04:55 --- join: neceve (~ncv@86.125.247.109) joined #forth 17:04:55 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 17:04:55 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 17:41:37 --- join: nighty-- (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 18:18:09 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:28:40 --- join: John[Lis` (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 18:31:02 derp 18:31:13 --- part: John[Lis` left #forth 18:32:02 --- mode: koisoke set +q john*!*user@2601* 18:32:11 --- join: John[Lis` (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 18:32:12 --- quit: John[Lis` (Remote host closed the connection) 18:32:45 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 18:32:57 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 19:36:21 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 19:55:59 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-40-1-221.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 20:00:20 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:04:42 --- join: John[Lis` (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 20:05:45 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Remote host closed the connection) 20:10:41 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.154) joined #forth 20:11:44 --- part: John[Lis` left #forth 20:12:56 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:5c7e:531:7376:c88c) joined #forth 20:18:50 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:42:19 --- quit: dual (Quit: It's a dud! 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