00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.03.12 00:11:27 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-73-220-86-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:11:27 --- join: g0d355__ (~lmao@104.131.75.159) joined #forth 00:18:30 --- quit: roboguy` () 00:22:30 --- quit: DGASAU (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:23:27 --- join: DGASAU (~user@lmpc.drb.insel.de) joined #forth 00:40:05 --- join: koz_ (~koz@121.99.240.58) joined #forth 01:49:56 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 01:50:27 --- quit: luser1 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:51:15 --- join: karswell (~user@214.135.46.217.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 01:55:01 --- quit: dys (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:09:54 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Quit: Leaving) 03:27:29 --- join: ryoshu (~kamil@netbsd/developer/kamil) joined #forth 03:27:47 hi 03:29:01 can forth be used to program complex software like a C++ compiler 03:53:39 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-43-1-42.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 04:10:16 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.82.133) joined #forth 04:40:03 ryoshu: forth can be used to progam any possible program because you can completely rewrite forth to be the program that you desire to make down to the exact bit 04:40:20 however there are already really good c++ compilers out there. 04:40:49 but yeah forth can very literally be whatever you want it to be when you input the right code 04:41:02 and actually any language can but it's less work to do so in forth I'd say 04:57:06 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 05:16:31 ryoshu: It's best not to write complex software at all hahas 05:17:03 find a way to make the whole thing simpler 05:17:47 "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." -- Brian Kernighan 05:18:33 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 05:23:47 * CORDIC remembers the Zen of Python. 05:24:17 I think simplicity is why I see forthers compelled to even implementing their own hardware. Other layers can be simpler if you control more layers. 05:25:39 Simplicity is one of my goals 05:25:44 but my goal is simply syntactic simplicity 05:25:46 nothign else 05:25:53 I want the syntax to be as easy to use as possible 05:26:11 In my mind c is an example of not easy syntax 05:26:39 btw how to do concurrency in ans? 05:30:31 What is the point of ANS if you can't look that up!? 05:32:27 lol thats an interesting point you make 05:32:32 ryoshu: I guess the task one usually has is to figure out what the actual problem/application is. For me it's not always what I first think it is. 05:50:40 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 05:57:52 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@host86-144-19-24.range86-144.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 06:15:35 --- quit: smokeink (Quit: Lost terminal) 06:16:09 --- join: smokeink (~smoke@221.216.52.99) joined #forth 07:36:06 hmmmmmmm 08:40:10 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:12:06 --- join: forthen (d9d79028@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.217.215.144.40) joined #forth 10:19:28 --- quit: smokeink (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 10:38:43 how about performance? a complex program like a C++ compiler in C/C++ vs FORTH 10:38:53 assuming the algorithm is the same in both 10:40:06 can FORTH be used in (soft)-real-time programs? 10:41:18 and how about memory usage compared to C in a decent progra 10:41:21 m 10:48:49 forth can probably be used in real time programs. If you program it the ordinary way it will probably be slower than c but if you are an avid c programmer you will easily be able to tweak forth to get speed boots 10:48:53 *boosts 10:54:08 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:05:47 --- join: luser1 (~luser1@h69-21-248-248.crlbnm.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) joined #forth 11:08:56 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 11:10:01 I would speculate that forth is probably used more in real-time, low-memory systems than not 11:10:23 agreed 11:12:10 would complex programs like a c++ compiler explode in terms of memory usage - compared to C? 11:12:28 depends on how you design it but not necessarily 11:12:35 If you know what you are doing then no 11:12:59 consider this 11:13:08 any c program can be spun into forth 11:13:19 and the most common c++ compilers are written in c 11:13:28 therefore the most common c++ compilers can be spun into forth 11:13:34 In general I need: performance, small memory footprint for complex applications.. and I want to dig into real-time and embedded (unix hosted) 11:14:07 forth is right up your alley if you want embedded. Forth is the king of embedded. Forth is the ultimate low level language. 11:14:30 The easiest way to answer your questions about forth is to write a forth I would say 11:15:03 I am writing a forth right now 11:16:43 I will give it a try 11:16:56 thank you 11:17:05 no problem 11:18:27 --- quit: gravicappa (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 11:32:01 --- join: gravicappa (~gravicapp@ppp83-237-175-166.pppoe.mtu-net.ru) joined #forth 11:40:49 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:41:17 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:41:23 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 11:41:56 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 12:19:09 --- quit: forthen (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 13:57:12 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 14:21:30 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 14:24:08 --- quit: gravicappa (Remote host closed the connection) 14:24:57 another question, it may be my naive understanding.. but does forth utilize all the registers for operations? I have an impression that it's a mixture of pushing and poping from a stack 14:26:34 the stack is just how data-passing is modeled from one word to another 14:26:47 several words will be implemented in native machine code, though, and those will use registers 14:27:02 you can even implement your own words in machine code 14:27:11 you can also easily implement your own forth, as a lot of people do 15:17:17 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:20:22 --- join: Guest4561 (~gunit1@ip47.ip-149-56-250.net) joined #forth 15:29:28 --- quit: Guest4561 (Quit: ...) 15:55:57 --- quit: nighty (Remote host closed the connection) 16:16:40 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.154) joined #forth 16:53:38 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:37:58 --- quit: dual (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:42:24 --- quit: ryoshu (Remote host closed the connection) 18:09:36 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 18:31:04 do you guys think it is possible to get gforth down into a smaller filesize than 500 k? 18:32:58 Cause I am thinking of using gforth as a component of my own version of busybox but busybox is like 1 meg 18:51:13 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:58:03 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:58:31 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:02:48 --- join: smokeink (~smoke@175.22.22.0) joined #forth 20:04:59 --- join: dual (~bonafide@subzeroup.core.rzwireless.net) joined #forth 20:14:46 --- quit: luser1 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:31:53 --- join: karswell` (~user@214.135.46.217.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 20:32:00 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:32:28 --- join: circ-user-3ReWJ (~circuser-@68.21.148.119) joined #forth 20:41:32 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 20:42:46 --- quit: circ-user-3ReWJ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:45:53 --- quit: MrBusiness (Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel) 20:46:58 --- join: MrBusiness (~ArcMrBism@104-50-90-48.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 20:50:14 Wait, John[Lisbeth], do you mean the source code or the binaries? 20:50:54 I would be inclined to guess the binaries, which means... I have no useful advice, very sorry :| 20:51:50 maybe compiling your own busybox with -O3 argument to gcc/g++, assuming that it isn't compiled that way by default. 20:52:49 Also worth asking is which ISAs correspond to that size? i[456]86, x64_64, MIPS, ARMv6, etc? 21:14:00 --- join: dual_ (~bonafide@subzeroup.core.rzwireless.net) joined #forth 21:14:29 --- quit: dual (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:15:27 --- quit: dual_ (Client Quit) 21:15:36 --- join: dual (~bonafide@subzeroup.core.rzwireless.net) joined #forth 22:13:38 --- join: luser1 (~luser1@h69-21-248-248.crlbnm.broadband.dynamic.tds.net) joined #forth 22:44:35 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-73-220-86-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:23:33 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 23:26:35 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.154) joined #forth 23:42:40 --- part: luser1 left #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.03.12