00:00:00 --- log: started forth/17.01.27 00:22:20 --- join: mat4 (~Claude@ip5b41159c.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 00:54:37 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:57:56 --- quit: mat4 (Quit: Verlassend) 01:02:11 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 01:42:07 --- quit: jyf (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:42:27 --- join: jyf (~weechat@210.73.195.75) joined #forth 01:53:04 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 02:09:57 --- quit: jyf (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:10:17 --- join: jyf (~weechat@210.73.195.75) joined #forth 02:17:50 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.159) joined #forth 02:28:58 --- join: nighty (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 03:10:33 --- quit: M-jimt (Remote host closed the connection) 03:13:55 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 03:16:54 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.159) joined #forth 03:24:26 --- join: M-jimt (jimtmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-chpqeuluvuzzhjoj) joined #forth 03:31:09 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 03:34:53 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.159) joined #forth 03:36:40 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:59b9:ab6e:e271:a458) joined #forth 03:40:54 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 03:42:42 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 04:26:18 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 04:28:15 --- quit: Zarutian (Client Quit) 06:07:27 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 06:43:03 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:9ca9:1a14:e16d:aa72) joined #forth 06:47:39 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 07:14:26 --- join: karswell (~user@58.209.208.46.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 07:17:08 --- join: mat4 (~Claude@ip5b40a127.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 07:31:21 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@212.225.112.221) joined #forth 07:31:53 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:50:40 --- quit: mat4 (Quit: Verlassend) 09:01:33 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@138-229-170-157.dhcp.ftwo.tx.charter.com) joined #forth 09:07:46 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 09:10:31 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 09:40:13 --- join: circ-user-ZCCmR (~circuser-@2602:304:4159:4770:b1f8:551d:c19e:a95b) joined #forth 09:40:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:9ca9:1a14:e16d:aa72) joined #forth 09:48:48 --- join: josh5tone (~josh@99-51-169-74.lightspeed.nworla.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 09:50:40 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:51:53 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:52:10 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:53:30 hmm is there somewhere a semi standard wordset for listing files in directories and composing file paths? 09:54:15 Zarutian said "standard"! Grab your pitchforks! :P 09:54:30 GeDaMo: semi standard 09:56:25 or should I just steal parts of the fs wordset from forthos.org? 09:59:44 GeDaMo: and I have this special offer on torches for the discreting mob. 10:05:30 --- join: dual (~bonafide@cpe-74-75-153-119.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 10:09:42 --- quit: josh5tone (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 10:23:16 --- join: josh5tone (~josh@99-51-169-74.lightspeed.nworla.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 10:24:10 --- join: mat4 (~Claude@ip5b40a127.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 10:24:14 hi all 10:33:33 --- quit: circ-user-ZCCmR (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 10:33:52 hey mat4 10:34:02 hi bluekelp 10:36:20 I'm preparing my talk tomorrow about Retroforth and processor design 10:37:58 is that the same as Retro? 10:38:11 yes 10:38:25 personally I like 11 better than 12 10:38:41 #1 style numerals feel awkward to me 10:40:26 my own work began with Retroforth 10 so I discard mentioning the later developments toward Nga 10:41:15 is 11 and 12 a fork of 10, or what's the story? 10:43:33 Retro 12 is a complete rewrite, incorporating some ideas from Parable 10:44:00 I have some slides about Ngaro to describe the development toward my current processor design 10:44:57 z0d: 11 was the result of a cleanup to the 10 codebase, and had a commitment to keep source compatibility for at least five years 10:46:43 I see 10:46:46 12 is, as mat4 said, a rewrite. 10:47:18 It isn't compatible with 11 (which I am still maintaining / supporting) 10:47:38 yeah, I have 11 on my iPhone and bought 12 last night 10:48:16 :) 10:51:17 I'm mostly working on 12 currently, since 11 has been very stable for years. (Since there's a clean break, it's easier for me to experiment with things in 12's design without breaking anything significant that exists) 10:52:23 I'm hoping to have them mostly comparable on features / libraries by this summer. 10:52:47 I'm about to teach programming to a 6 year old. I was thinking about Scheme, but I'll probably choose Forth 10:54:13 Not a bad age to start. I've recently begun teaching my 12 & 13 year old kids (exploring forth, basic, python, and smalltalk) 10:55:10 I think I was around 7 when my father taught me BASIC 10:55:50 although I didn't go too far. and didn't understand what is dimensioning 10:56:04 (that was allocating memory for an array) 10:56:53 I started programming in Basic with age of eight. Soon after explored Forth and teached myself by reading Starting Forth 10:57:24 I wish I knew Forth back then 10:59:28 BASIC is still good for teaching, because it can be used as a command language. You type commands and computer does things in return. No compile cycle, no types, no classes... It's good to have live coding editor too and some ways to do graphics. Check Bret Victor's explanations :) 11:00:04 link? 11:00:32 http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ 11:00:34 For example. 11:00:34 but with Forth, you get a REPL basically. so you can quickly try things 11:00:39 thanks 11:01:25 Forth is good for another teaching course, where you explain how to build your own languages. 11:01:48 I think it's a good first language, because the syntax is simple 11:04:13 Well, maybe, if the kid likes puzzles very much :) 11:05:36 what do you mean? reading Forth code? 11:06:02 It would be interesting to compare what kids able to do after attending two courses: Logo-based and Forth-based. 11:06:32 well, they can learn anything 11:07:03 they'd probably be able to write programs in Brainf*** 11:07:05 I'm sure that Logo should be more straightforward for them. They will not fight with the stack and interpreter if all what they want is to draw a house on the screen 11:07:43 Logo was special developed to teach childreen programming 11:08:36 yeah, but Basic was made to make programming easier and nowadays I think Python is better for that 11:09:39 you will find Python more suitable for teaching than Basic 11:11:03 I used Basic just to introduce some general concepts. Most of what the kids are doing is in Python currently. 11:13:39 you can write good code in BASIC and you can write shitty code in Pascal 11:15:32 A real programmer can write Fortran in any language :P 11:16:42 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11:16:52 C This is a Test 11:17:08 SUBROUTINE helloWorld 11:17:53 What do you think about Prolog as a first language? :) 11:18:02 err 11:18:13 1 WRITE (STDOUT,*.*) "hallo Welt" 11:18:22 GOTO 1 11:18:27 ;) 11:18:29 I read a coding suggestions document a few weeks back from someone who';d obviously had his foot nailed to a Fortran compiler at some point, some very strange suggestions 11:21:14 I missed Fortran 11:21:19 never tried it 11:21:44 * mat4 hopes z0d does not mean Fortran 77 with his statement 11:22:01 I've never written a line of Fortran code whatsoever 11:22:05 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 11:22:13 am I a bad person? 11:22:56 I modified a Fortran program once, it took me a while to accept there were essentially no string operations, you had to treat strings like files and use read and write on them 11:23:28 --- join: karswell (~user@58.209.208.46.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 11:23:34 z0d, you are of course not a bad person 11:42:59 he could still be a bad person 11:43:21 :-> 11:43:52 A person who loves Forth couldn't be a bad one! 11:44:27 only if he teach programming in C ;) 11:44:34 no way 12:34:39 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@40.86.75.178) joined #forth 12:44:20 ciao 12:44:28 --- quit: mat4 (Quit: Verlassend) 13:40:12 --- join: ACE_Recliner (~ACE_Recli@c-50-165-178-74.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:46:38 One of the things which I have been thinking about is converting emacs into a forth 13:46:57 As far as I know the base for emacs is c, and c has macros, therefore you can use the c macros to spin up the emacs base into a forth 13:47:19 2variable current-primary 13:47:19 there are plenty of c forths, some of them anses 13:47:22 wrong paste 13:47:28 https://github.com/larsbrinkhoff/fmacs 13:48:35 John[Lisbeth]: Emacs is mostly written in Emacs Lisp, only the low-level stuff is C 13:50:55 this is certainly true 13:51:02 although in a cheaty way it would allow you to create a forthmacs 13:51:33 I think lisp though can be converted into rpn 13:52:03 well, everything can be converted to RPN 13:52:18 True but it is much easier to convert lisp to rpn than it is to convert perl regular expressions to rpn 13:53:15 not sure about that one actually 13:54:51 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 13:55:06 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:55:41 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:9ca9:1a14:e16d:aa72) joined #forth 13:57:20 We'll just have to agree to disagree 13:57:41 I think it would be much easier to convert ten pages of lisp to rpn than to convert ten pages of regular expressions to rpn 14:02:18 why would you do either 14:02:22 if you've got lisp, use lisp 14:02:41 if you've got regular expressions, use one of the billions of things that work with regular expressions 14:02:44 perl maybe 14:02:48 sed 14:03:10 John[Lisbeth]: you need to stop smoking so much dope 14:03:40 this stoner monomania is getting worrying 14:06:37 dope has nothing to do with it 14:08:29 my thought is that lisp and forth should merge. I think based on what factor has shown this is doable. 14:08:47 how? they have different syntax and different semantics etc. 14:10:54 Well I do not know how to solve all of the details but I think two things 14:11:24 first is that the way that it should be done should follow factor as an example because factor has successfully accumulated most of common lisp's features 14:11:40 and second that this can be achieved at first by creating rpn macros in any given lisp that has macros 14:13:43 you would need to take a macro which takes lisp symbols which are atoms or which behave like atoms and tell the compiler to push that onto a linked list 14:14:04 and then you would have to create a macro that can trick functions into pulling arguments from the stack 14:14:13 or else rewrite the functions 14:25:29 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 14:27:36 fuck's sake 14:28:04 if you're going to get into stoned blethering mode, can you do it somewhere not near a computer please? 14:46:41 It's really easy to negate someones arguments by disagreeing with their lifesytle choices but it is alot harder to to actually come up with reasoned arguments why they are incorrect 14:47:02 saying I am wrong because I smoke weed is like saying someone is wrong because they are black 14:47:20 if the most stoned person in the world said that abraham lincoln was the president of the united states they would be correct 14:47:34 and if the most sober person in the world said that abraham lincoln was the president of china they would be incorrect 14:47:46 being stoned does not affect whether or not you are correct, being correct affects whether or not you are correct 14:48:07 do not pretend that you have debunked my arguments by calling me a stoner. That is not a scholarly way do debate. 14:52:19 gordonjcp, and to think I got in trouble for calling him retarded about a week ago 14:58:40 I am not saying the lisp + forth should replace any existing forth I am shing the lisp + forth should replace the existing lisp 14:58:50 there have been cases in the past where two very old languages have merged 14:58:54 it is very rare but it happens 14:59:22 for example in the recent years we have seen lambdas bleed into every mainstream languages, even the ones that claimed that delegates and anonymous functions were good enough 14:59:31 even c proports to have lambdas 14:59:37 and be a functional programming language 15:00:12 whereas in the 90s and early 2000s which I like to refer to as the microsoft dark ages, functional programming was specifically for funcitonal programming languages and object oriented was separate 15:00:44 Or for example many languages over time develop regular expressions even if that language was not designed for the purpose of regular expressions 15:01:09 John[Lisbeth]: talk is cheap. show us some code 15:01:40 On the one hand I agree that code talks more than words, but at the same time that does not mean that we should not have discussions about our code 15:01:56 academic discourse is part of the scientific process 15:02:19 we must not be afraid to discuss things 15:03:01 And besides what is a dead channel for a dead language for except discussing that dead langauge? 15:03:29 certainly what has been tried before has not given forth much success, and I reason that doing things which have been done before will lead to the same lack of success 15:03:54 Forth became popular in the early 40s and 50s because the only computers in existence absolutely needed every single ounce of power they could get 15:04:21 and in the 80s it surged in popularity again because the desire to have desktop computers required again for forth to come about. 15:04:38 I thought Forth was born in the '70s 15:04:56 reverse polish notation languages have been around longer than forth though 15:05:07 to my knowledge gnu dc is older than forth 15:05:28 _GNU_ dc is probably not 15:05:51 as GNU was founded in the '80s 15:06:05 dc was orriginally writtenin the b language before c was invented 15:06:14 and before dc there were other rpn languages written on the punch cards 15:06:21 gnu picked it up later on 15:06:35 my point being that the two times in history when rpn has taken off it has been because of lack of compute power 15:06:49 but in the 2010s we have abundant compute power, and so forth has got to compete on another level in order to survive or else it will die 15:07:04 and it is dying. very close to death. The only reason it is not dead is because nothing truly dies on the internet 15:09:31 I realize for some of you I may be rehashing arguments which have been beaten to death but for a 22 year old programmer like me this is all still very new 15:16:39 What I firmly believe is that forth is actually very easy to use and that once it is learned can be used as a very high level programming language. But the problem is trying to get people to actually learn how to use it. 15:18:36 that is true of all non-mainstream, non-"it gets me job offers" langs 15:20:15 this is exactly the crux of the problem. People look at a language which is used alot in business and they think, "this is used alot in business, and therefore it is good." So they start using it in their business too. And what you get is a language that is actually good because it has alot of developers, but no matter how many developers you throw at a language that will not fix any underlying problems in the language. 15:20:49 you can add as many objects to C++ as you want but none of it will actually make c++ any less of a pain to use 15:21:22 Some objects are easier to manipulate than others and we develop better objects over time, but if the tool you use to manipulate those objects is weak then you are still going to have a bad time 15:22:08 it is true that in a turing complete language you can dig your way out of any hole, but some holes are so deep that large scale companies will give up digging on them just because they run into such a syntactic nighmare with sphagetti code 15:23:03 no matter how good your datastructures, design patterns, or other techniques, at the end of the day you are typing in lines of code in a given language and that language really effects how quickly and easily you can write code for your company 15:23:17 in the industry we see a spectrum from very hard languages which are very fast to very easy languages which are very slow 15:23:48 for example assmebler is very fast and rugged but it is extremely hard to use. And javascript is extremely easy to use but very buggy and slow. A language like go or python is somewhere inbetween being relatively easy to use and relatively fast 15:24:03 With forth I see a language that is both fast and easy to use and that makes a huge difference 16:14:57 --- quit: dual (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:34:18 --- join: circ-user-ZCCmR (~circuser-@2602:304:4159:4770:b1f8:551d:c19e:a95b) joined #forth 16:56:32 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 17:22:35 --- quit: circ-user-ZCCmR (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17:24:36 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.152) joined #forth 17:26:55 --- quit: ACE_Recliner (Remote host closed the connection) 17:37:13 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 17:53:07 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:30:28 I think history has kind of made a mistake in looking over forth 18:31:09 Both times rpn became popular it became popular because extra computation power needed to be squeezed out. Soon after people abandoned it saying "this is too hard, now we have room to move onto an easier thing." 18:31:49 But we have very high level languages today much larger and more comlex than forth and when you sit newcomers down at these prompts and get them to use these high level languages they still call it hard 18:32:26 so the high level languages do not really solve the problem of making programming easy to learn for the first time 18:33:02 I would say high level languages are even harder because one person may never learn how one of these high languages works all the way through even after using it for years whereas one person can learn how a forth works all the way through and grasp it enough to make their own forth in a relatively short amount of time 18:57:24 --- quit: josh5tone (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:59:28 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-184-58-116-76.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:09:40 --- join: josh5tone (~josh@99-51-169-74.lightspeed.nworla.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:16:32 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 19:16:52 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@121.54.90.152) joined #forth 19:46:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 20:21:31 --- join: circ-user-ZCCmR (~circuser-@2602:304:4159:4770:b1f8:551d:c19e:a95b) joined #forth 20:35:38 --- quit: midre (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:40:08 --- quit: circ-user-ZCCmR (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 20:42:49 --- join: midre (~midre@c-67-163-247-203.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:32:39 --- join: circ-user-ZCCmR (~circuser-@2602:304:4159:4770:b1f8:551d:c19e:a95b) joined #forth 22:38:02 --- quit: circ-user-ZCCmR (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 22:55:04 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 23:44:51 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 23:44:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 23:45:13 --- topic: set to 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | http://forthworks.com/forth/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com | https://github.com/mark4th' by I440r 23:45:16 pwned 23:45:33 lol had to be done 23:45:36 kthxbai 23:45:53 --- mode: I440r set -o I440r 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/17.01.27