00:00:00 --- log: started forth/16.12.16 00:01:03 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:25ad:8605:d9fb:202d) joined #forth 00:05:42 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 00:30:47 --- join: swapdup (5092ff2a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.80.146.255.42) joined #forth 00:32:10 --- quit: swapdup (Client Quit) 00:54:38 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 00:55:03 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-184-58-116-76.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 01:21:02 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 01:58:04 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Leaving) 02:00:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:25ad:8605:d9fb:202d) joined #forth 02:01:11 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 02:05:17 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 02:25:02 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@customer-46-39-122-235.stosn.net) joined #forth 02:25:19 --- join: dys (~dys@x5f72055c.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 02:43:26 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 02:44:18 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: leaving) 02:46:07 --- join: nighty (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 02:50:05 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@customer-46-39-122-235.stosn.net) joined #forth 03:01:59 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:25ad:8605:d9fb:202d) joined #forth 03:06:16 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:07:45 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: leaving) 04:02:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:25ad:8605:d9fb:202d) joined #forth 04:07:57 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 04:14:00 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@customer-46-39-122-235.stosn.net) joined #forth 04:41:13 --- quit: mtsd (Quit: leaving) 04:47:26 --- quit: beretta (Quit: Leaving) 05:03:01 --- quit: rpcope (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 05:06:01 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 05:15:43 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05:20:49 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 06:03:06 --- quit: M-jimt (Remote host closed the connection) 06:08:19 --- join: ff-mike (5b962c9a@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.91.150.44.154) joined #forth 06:16:29 --- join: M-jimt (jimtmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-otmbarvcnfpfbnch) joined #forth 06:18:40 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 06:18:58 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 06:19:17 hello Zarutian 06:19:25 --- join: rgrinberg (~rgrinberg@24-246-56-85.cable.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 06:19:36 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:19:58 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 06:22:45 Mat4: they do not ignore that. 06:22:57 The claim is false, and the figures demonstrate it clearly. 06:23:16 Besides, it was demonstrated before, perhaps in one of referenced papers even. 06:25:40 --- join: opollen (~opollen@96-83-49-155-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 06:28:41 I think to studied now most of the published papers on that topic in the meantime and he conclusions simply vary with design. Personally I've written both 'register' as stack based interpreters with the same experience. 06:28:52 he=the 06:30:44 Tendencially, stack based designs allow combined disptach and execution of multiple instructions (static superinstructions) where this is not possible with the same efficiency in case of register based ones 06:31:28 However, thus stack VM designs are probably not well suited for common languages as target 06:32:40 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:32:41 also simple VM code compilation I found easier to accomplish with register based designs 06:36:45 an any case the tradeoffs for both strategies should be well compared, specially if JIT compilation is an additional goal. In some cases it may be simplier and more effective to compile directly the complete source code before execution 06:38:35 anyhow, that lead to offtopic discussions 06:38:56 You forget that you have less need to dispatch several operations on register-based machines. 06:45:20 you need regualry only two instruction combinations to compensate for this 06:45:28 ^regulary 06:46:31 as the increased instruction count is mostly related to needed literal values 06:47:05 and compact encodings allow up to three instruction combinations 06:47:26 that's all obvious in my opinion 06:48:14 however, I have the time currently to discuss further (or better better things to do) 06:48:17 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Leaving) 06:53:31 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 06:57:36 --- join: ricky_ricardo (~rickyrica@2601:240:4203:ecb0:5882:a6d1:561d:fff7) joined #forth 07:08:21 --- quit: M-jimt (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 07:09:43 --- join: M-jimt (jimtmatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-sqeedbfschqokbak) joined #forth 07:16:47 --- join: Ffmike_ (252127cd@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.33.39.205) joined #forth 07:17:24 --- part: Ffmike_ left #forth 07:52:38 --- quit: opollen (Quit: opollen) 07:54:39 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 08:02:17 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:05:03 --- quit: rgrinberg (Remote host closed the connection) 08:07:22 --- join: rgrinberg (~rgrinberg@24-246-56-85.cable.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 08:57:52 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Leaving) 09:29:35 --- quit: ricky_ricardo (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 09:34:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@71.198.73.193) joined #forth 09:36:09 --- join: ricky_ricardo (~rickyrica@2601:240:4203:ecb0:5882:a6d1:561d:fff7) joined #forth 09:38:39 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:46:26 --- join: workp (~workp@host-92-25-126-252.as13285.net) joined #forth 09:50:10 --- join: rpcope (~GOTZNC@162.245.217.4) joined #forth 09:51:26 --- quit: ids1024 (Quit: WeeChat 1.5) 10:03:19 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@104.6.70.118) joined #forth 10:08:34 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 10:10:05 sorry for the bad formulation 11:19:40 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Leaving) 11:32:56 is it normal for : to be defined in terms of create and does>, or do these really do different things? 11:39:40 --- quit: neceve (Remote host closed the connection) 11:42:36 --- join: neceve (~ncv@79.114.83.228) joined #forth 11:42:36 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 11:42:36 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 11:45:13 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 11:47:55 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 11:49:02 which Forth system ? 12:37:02 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 13:22:03 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 13:22:11 zy]x[yz: CREATE and DOES> are usually meant for custom data structures. You certainly *can* have : defined in terms of them if you like, though. 13:22:38 If you look at Starting Forth, Chapter 11, it actually gives a good explanation of CREATE and DOES> (in my humble opinion, of course). 13:40:20 thabks 14:15:24 --- join: nal (~nal@adsl-64-237-234-155.prtc.net) joined #forth 14:50:24 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 15:43:38 --- quit: ricky_ricardo (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 15:44:55 --- join: ricky_ricardo (~rickyrica@2601:240:4203:ecb0:5882:a6d1:561d:fff7) joined #forth 15:50:00 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:33:20 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 16:33:52 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@104.6.70.118) joined #forth 16:37:59 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:53:11 --- quit: workp (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 16:54:53 --- quit: nal (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 17:13:04 --- join: nal (~nal@adsl-64-237-234-155.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:18:05 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@71.198.73.193) joined #forth 18:17:59 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:a54b:5ee1:d1f0:b6d) joined #forth 18:41:01 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 18:52:33 --- join: mnemnia (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:7db1:d927:14a1:e0e3) joined #forth 18:52:36 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:42:40 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Remote host closed the connection) 19:42:59 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:a54b:5ee1:d1f0:b6d) joined #forth 19:51:22 Could someone help me understand what I've donkeyed here? https://gist.github.com/kozross/e3491a79c105c82557a47d3965197e5e 19:54:44 what are you trying to do with HERE 5 CELLS ALLOT BASE ! 19:54:48 there is no way that does anything sane 19:55:43 koisoke: It stores (temporarily) the address where the array begins. It's from Starting Forth (I certainly wouldn't use BASE as temporary storage), and I dislike it as much as you do. 19:55:58 Hence why I'm trying to rewrite it *not* to have to do that. 19:57:22 koisoke: If it helps, I can link to where in Starting Forth this is found for context. 19:58:18 please 19:59:32 koisoke: https://www.forth.com/starting-forth/11-forth-compiler-defining-words/#More_Compiler-Controlling_Words <-- closest link I can give you - it's about 10 paragraphs down from there, when he's discussing LITERAL. 20:02:33 firstly, ANS has Create for this use 20:04:34 your version does not work because in many/most forths, the colon definition is getting compiled to the memory at HERE 20:04:58 so doing ALLOT in the middle of compiling a definition will not work 20:05:04 I see. 20:05:16 So how *should* that example from Starting Forth be written then? 20:06:12 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 20:09:18 either as given, using some other varaible than BASE, or else like: Create limit 5 cells allot does> cells + ; 20:10:40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1FUY6g5crA 20:10:57 Ah, I see. Thanks koisoke - that makes sense. Why on *earth* would you use BASE as a scratch var... 20:11:25 I thought that was a bit suspect. 20:13:30 it "should" be ok, since there isn't any numeric conversion happening in the interim, but .. :| 20:16:18 koisoke: It's still weird - BASE isn't called GARBAGEDUMP or TEMP. 20:17:06 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:29:12 --- quit: nal (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 21:07:47 --- quit: rgrinberg (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 22:19:23 --- quit: ricky_ricardo (Remote host closed the connection) 22:46:25 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 23:11:59 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Leaving) 23:49:45 --- join: dys (~dys@x5f71f9e5.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 23:52:35 --- join: Mat4 (~claude4@ip5b40a15e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 23:53:20 --- quit: Mat4 (Client Quit) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/16.12.16