00:00:00 --- log: started forth/16.12.13 00:11:09 I guess the problem is that Forth doesn't really lend itself to "standardisable" problems 00:11:25 I think most Forth stuff is very system-specific 00:11:50 it would be like having an ANSI Standard Amplifier 00:12:02 (or ISO, or BS, let's not pick on the Americans) 00:12:13 thank goodness, now my amplifiers can be truly portable! 00:12:16 here we go, ANSI Standard Amplifier, use it for all your amplifying needs 00:12:43 but yunfan needs two amplifiers, one to amplify signals from an ultrasound probe and one to drive a loudspeaker 00:13:16 and I need two amplifiers, one to pick up faint 2.4GHz signals and one to produce 400W at 2.4GHz for the transmitter 00:13:23 guess what? 00:13:30 that doesn't all fit in one box 00:13:54 "what??? NVIDIA's amplifiers go up to 11? Well, it is a proprietary extension, but... gotta have it!" 00:14:38 :-) 00:14:53 if you install the nouveau drivers you can get 10.75 00:15:33 and there's a compile-time flag to get you 10.5 + 1.5j if you can cope with looking at bits of the screen sideways 00:23:42 gordonjcp: but at least you were forth, you need to have some common features or charactis 00:24:47 the only commonalities I've really seen that have stuck between forths are words as the unit of abstraction and a stack/postfix. Everything else varies wildly. 00:28:20 especially if you look at stuff like jeff fox's unfinished AHA and colorforth. That stuff seems really interesting but I have trouble finding much information about them 01:54:43 --- join: dys (~dys@x5f725187.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 01:57:01 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.222.10) joined #forth 02:41:50 ok i pushed isforth to github but because i have a4 for my arm forth and t4 for my arm thumb2 forth i renamed isforth to x4. some day I may do x64 :P 02:42:40 i hope greenarrays works out for cm 02:42:52 i hope they are getting a lot of business 02:46:11 mark4_: URL? 02:46:28 https://github.com/mark4th/x4 02:46:42 :) 02:49:15 mark4: where to start reading? 02:52:36 start in kernel sources with a4.s and macros.s 02:52:46 macros.s is a little complex tho 02:52:53 erm not a4.s x4.S 02:53:12 https://github.com/mark4th/t4 <-- just pushed this too 02:53:17 this is the arm thumb2 version of it 02:53:31 that runs on my raspberry pi 2 02:53:46 it also runs on a beagleboard xm, a cubie and a pi 1 02:53:55 it will probably run just fine on a pi 3 02:54:14 if you read the macros file the rest wont be as confusing 02:54:42 x4.S is basically the main include file... it shows you what is included and in what order 02:55:10 with the extensions the order is given in src/x4.f which is the main load file for the extensions 02:55:45 and IMHO x4 is a billion times better than jonesforth 02:56:11 jonesforth soruces look like any other clusterfsck of an unmade bed 02:56:29 i also think he used isforth as a source for info but cant prove that 02:56:47 isforth has been around since 2000 03:06:53 mark4_, They had a lot more opportunities when they were called IntellaSys. 03:07:15 same company but with a different name? 03:07:22 didnt someone screw them over ant intellasys? 03:08:04 mark4_, They had funding there. 03:08:20 who funded? 03:08:32 TPL Group. 03:08:45 and how much control over what he was doing and how did he have to give up 03:12:14 mark4_, He (et al) designed SEAforth architecture while staying in IntellaSys. They had marketing, TPL found a nice "killer application" for the team -- hearing aid with a lot of DSP. 03:12:14 so why did it fold? 03:12:14 Patent issues. 03:12:15 who was breaking patents? 03:12:26 Who owns what. 03:12:57 i mean. was CM breaking someone elses patents? 03:13:08 did the company waht CMs work patented in their name? 03:13:55 No, TPL were selling Moore patent portfolio for many clients. 03:14:31 nerfur, once you figure the macros out exec.s is a good place to be 03:14:42 so they were selling his shit without his permission? 03:14:48 and were they cutting him out of the profits? 03:14:55 im not up on all this 03:16:20 mark4_, As I remember, CM got nothing from it. But before it he sold the patents to TPL, so... You can google and find more details. I was more concentrated on technical side of things in those days :) 03:17:03 if he sold his patents im not sure how he could have had a problem with them selling them or licensing them 03:17:08 he should never have sold them 03:20:00 Then we would never see real, not "paper" chips. 03:20:52 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 03:21:02 arm didnt have a problem 03:21:24 he could have done the same thing as they did when they were starting out 04:09:05 --- join: nighty (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 04:16:07 somene still may someday 04:16:17 but for now arm is basically the best 04:16:24 micromote is the smallest computer to date 04:16:44 as powerful as a commedore 64 and the size of a grain of rice, powered by ambient light alone 04:17:17 I'd like to get one of those and use today's technology to make a digital watch 04:17:25 but put forth repl on it 04:17:49 You may just be able to get it to be powered by light alone 04:18:15 if not you just need a little microusb port 04:18:39 It would have a little lcd screen plus an internal unit for wifi and bluetooth 04:18:56 and you'd have you own little micropc there on your wrist 04:19:45 and you'd just bring one of these keyboards: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71LDJqwQZoL._SL1500_.jpg 04:21:11 it would be like a calculator watch but one step up 04:52:56 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:01:59 --- join: proteusguy (~proteus-g@182.232.248.180) joined #forth 05:01:59 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 05:48:12 --- join: ricky_ricardo (~rickyrica@2601:240:4203:ecb0:d062:2595:7a7a:ec4e) joined #forth 06:21:15 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 07:30:45 --- join: neceve (~ncv@79.114.83.228) joined #forth 07:30:45 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 07:30:45 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 07:32:24 --- join: rgrinberg (~rgrinberg@24-246-56-85.cable.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 07:44:01 --- quit: rgrinberg (Remote host closed the connection) 07:46:21 --- join: rgrinberg (~rgrinberg@24-246-56-85.cable.teksavvy.com) joined #forth 08:22:51 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@host109-149-156-150.range109-149.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 08:24:01 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 08:24:40 --- join: Om (4b12bacb@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.75.18.186.203) joined #forth 08:24:58 --- quit: Om (Client Quit) 08:25:49 --- join: nal (~nal@adsl-64-237-234-147.prtc.net) joined #forth 09:30:58 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@71.198.73.193) joined #forth 11:06:29 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 12:23:39 --- join: mnemnia (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:5556:d6de:31b6:ee0f) joined #forth 12:25:22 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 12:54:13 --- quit: neceve (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:54:58 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 12:57:02 --- join: Zarutian_ (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 12:57:02 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:57:03 --- nick: Zarutian_ -> Zarutian 14:21:27 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:36:11 YES lol just got dynamic huffman encoding working for both comp and decomp for my android NDK version of my forth :) 14:36:17 this one is not on github :P 14:37:03 forth sources go in the assets directory - you compress the source tree for your applications forth sources into an archive and you can load and unload them at will from the archive 14:37:46 well. that parts not done yet lol. the C code to compress the sources into an archive is done and passing -t to the archive extracts all the files. piping that to less shows no extraction errors 14:37:52 yippee! lol 14:38:07 now if only i could find a new place to live and a job then i wont end up on the streets :P 14:42:13 --- quit: mnemnia (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 14:55:22 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@71.198.73.193) joined #forth 15:16:15 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 15:17:54 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:49:11 --- join: mnemnia (~mnemnion@2601:643:8102:7c95:24e2:33bb:1f48:6203) joined #forth 15:52:31 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 16:14:19 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 16:39:16 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:44:15 --- join: Kumool (~nal@adsl-64-237-235-137.prtc.net) joined #forth 16:45:43 --- quit: nal (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 16:53:05 --- join: nighty (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 17:21:54 Question... do any forths you know of have a goto or jump word? 17:23:34 mine did 17:23:44 i removed it because i pretty much never used it 17:23:48 its easy to define though 17:24:06 only use for it is to do tail call optimizations 17:24:28 which dont really improve things as much as you think they do :) 17:27:20 reepca: ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/forth/Archive/talk/goto.txt 17:45:56 I'm sort of trying to write a linked list of definitions 17:46:44 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:bd8a:bb46:9c78:d912) joined #forth 17:48:10 I have this idea for a declarative sort of word that I'm currently thinking of calling WHEN. The idea is that it would be used like so: WHEN mouse3-pressed DO> (some-action-here) ; 17:48:32 and mouse3-pressed would be defined as a trigger word or something like that 17:48:52 the idea being to be able to do declarative, event-based stuff 17:49:52 there could be trigger variables as well, which trigger any actions involving them when they are changed 17:50:26 so you could write stuff like WHEN temperature 200 > DO> emergency-shutdown ; 17:51:36 (where temperature is a trigger variable) 17:51:55 reepca: Interesting. I had a somewhat similar thought of having the mouse or the temperature sensor write the code. I think you may have found the defining word syntax for such non-keyboard driven coding. 17:52:10 I haven't quite fleshed out how to implement it though 17:52:36 thats just an IF statement and it is saying make a decision NOW based on something we wont know till later 17:53:06 button-3-pressed if do-button-3-handler then 17:53:10 the idea is that it adds the action to be done (and the condition) to a list to be triggered later 17:53:20 Maybe WHEN could work like CREATE except that it has something like an "active name" 17:53:29 then make a deferred word and use that 17:54:21 defer button-3-handler 17:54:55 i can see a place for does> in here somewhere too 17:55:03 not 100% certain of what you are trying to accomplish 17:55:20 but with a deferred word you CAN chain actions to be taken by that deferred word 17:55:23 defer foo 17:55:25 ...So not just a simple string matching to get that word, but something like matching any mouse click...active names. 17:55:32 : foo1 defers foo ...... ; 17:55:37 : foo2 defers foo ..... ; 17:55:53 you execute foo then foo1 executes and then foo2 executes 17:56:43 so for example, "trigger button-3-pressed" then anywhere else "WHEN button-3-pressed do> ." button 3 was pressed!" cr ;" and then later another could be defined "WHEN button-3-pressed do> over-button? if button-pressed then ; " 17:57:25 err replace button-3-pressed with mouse-3 17:58:27 button-pressed itself being a trigger word thing 18:03:41 a more complex example: WHEN temperature 200 > pressure 400 > and DO> emergency-shutdown ; temperature and pressure are immediate words (and probably in a special "triggers" word list that gets put on top of search order by WHEN and removed by DO>) which compile in their usual code (retrieving a value in this case) and also link up the normal word to the action in question. 18:05:44 when either temperature or pressure get changed, then, the code specified is run 18:06:24 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:13:27 --- quit: mnemnia (Remote host closed the connection) 18:21:23 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 18:31:07 --- join: neceve (~ncv@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 18:46:55 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-184-58-116-76.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:19:47 --- quit: Kumool (Quit: WeeChat 1.4) 19:33:38 --- quit: diginet2 (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 19:34:47 --- join: diginet2 (~diginet@107.170.146.29) joined #forth 19:35:54 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@static-72-88-80-103.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:05:15 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 20:10:07 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 20:26:57 --- join: John[Lis` (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:bd8a:bb46:9c78:d912) joined #forth 20:28:49 --- quit: saml_ (Remote host closed the connection) 20:28:59 --- quit: John[Lisbeth] (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:40:03 --- quit: rgrinberg (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 21:00:52 --- quit: neceve (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 22:06:13 --- join: John[Lisbeth] (~user@2601:601:8f01:a6a0:bd8a:bb46:9c78:d912) joined #forth 22:09:42 I have this fantasy of making myself a little wearable computer with bluetooth 22:09:52 wow weird bug on my end 22:10:10 --- quit: John[Lis` (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 22:10:53 anyway this grain of rice sized computer has gotten me thinking about those digital watches from the 80s 22:11:13 they were very functional because they sometimes had multiple alarms, calendar, stopwatch, timer, two stored times, and even a calculator 22:11:32 but as I explored these calculator watches I was shocked that not one of them made an RPN calculator watch 22:11:52 however with todays technology it is possible to put an entire computer system on a watch 22:12:54 they have these foldable keybaords now which fit in a jacket pocket: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwd4tR1LbHo 22:13:51 the thing I have trouble accepting though is as nice as my microcomputer wristwatch would be it would still not be as useful as that keyboard powered with a tablet 22:16:29 I am holding out because we are soon entering the age of tablets being desktops 22:20:07 John[Lisbeth]: rice size? then how you do the soldering work? 22:21:12 John[Lisbeth]: also for keyboard, i have a better one, check gk308e 22:25:14 no that one I think is objectively worse 22:25:27 The one I linked is based on the ms surface keyboard which I thoroughly enjoyed typing on 22:25:54 to turn it on you open it and to turn it off you close it 22:25:59 got all my f keys 22:26:03 everything I need 22:27:07 My phone contract is up very soon and I am going to ditch my phone and get a wifi hotspot because all I really need is ssh to do my work and a little bandwidth for googling 22:27:51 I am considering what kind of device I want to get with it 22:28:18 I am definitely not getting adroid until all the tablets run a real desktop like chroembooks do which could take another 5 years 22:28:28 There's a reason why there's no RPN in those calculators. 22:28:37 why? 22:28:58 Because RPN turned out too hard to use. 22:29:16 I disagree. I find rpn very easy to use 22:29:17 Because we invented very easy parsing algorithms. 22:29:47 In conjunction of those two reasons, there's no sense in insisting on RPN when you can have full-blown mathematical notation. 22:30:04 Even Fortran improved over time. 22:30:29 traditional mathematical notation is a shit show 22:30:44 For instance, in Fortran-90 you don't need to write your own or use someone else's procedure to multiply matrices. 22:31:04 Or even copy arrays. 22:31:04 you'll probably never convince me that anything else is as easy as RPN 22:31:56 Because of that, you can write something like CG solver in 10 lines. 22:32:12 Or Cholesky decomposition in five lines. 22:32:33 Instead of pages from seventies. 22:33:27 With modern OpenMP you can even use SIMD extensions. 22:33:32 With few extra lines. 22:33:49 Note that that's about Fortran, a language that started long before Forth. 22:40:32 --- quit: cantstanya (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 22:45:51 perhaps you are correct about fortran but I don't have any evidence that fortran is any better of an alternative than forth 22:46:05 forth is the ultimate unix type system that was made in heaven just for me 22:46:36 I have been hunting it for four years and I am not going to turn back for standard mathematical notation 22:46:50 in your mind the first thing you would do with a forth is implement standard mathematical notation 22:46:57 but that is exactly the thing I would avoid in my forth 22:47:24 and you talk about these small old systems but I did not choose forth because it was old and small 22:47:34 I wanted the most bang for my buck in terms of expressability modularity and composability 22:47:35 Right, that's why at the time while you're dreaming of writing something in Forth, others just pick Java, C# or even PHP and implement what they want in real. 22:48:02 My concatenative techniques should work in java and C# just fine 22:48:24 and I think if we look clearly at the reasons why java c# and php are so popular it is becuase of business types who don't know what they are doing trying to lead programmers who already know what they are doing 22:48:47 Pf! 22:49:13 Have you ever worked in team? 22:51:27 only once 22:51:49 How large was it? 22:51:57 it was really horrible because the professor worked at microsoft so she let my partners shun my open source libraries so I would be forced to isntall windows 22:51:58 5 people 22:52:10 that class was what made me leave computer science for 2 years 22:52:25 I was completely aghast at the complete lack of guard for linux in the US univeristy system 22:52:29 Oh, so it wasn't actually working. 22:52:43 what wasn't actually working? 22:53:29 by the way that foldable keyboard you sent is actually fairly nice cause it's got slightly better keymapping 22:53:34 but I still like the moko foldable keyboard 22:53:50 Working in a student lab is not comparable to working on any real-world project. 22:54:42 What are you saying? 22:54:49 That I am incorrect because I am inexperienced? 22:55:11 No. 22:55:32 I'm saying that I have correctly understood that you have never worked in team. 22:56:32 yes we have covered that part 22:56:35 what is your point? 22:56:59 --- join: cantstanya (~chatting@unaffiliated/cantstanya) joined #forth 22:57:33 Because of lack of experience, you make statements that sound pretty idiotic. 22:57:56 that is attacking the speaker which is a logical fallacy 22:58:10 if someone who sounded like an idiot said that abraham lincoln was a man he would be correct 22:58:24 and if someone who sounded really intelligent said that abraham lincoln was a woman they would be incorrect 22:59:46 You often come in here simply to complain about reverse polish notation and tout hte krivine machine 22:59:55 those of us who have sat here a while know this 23:00:13 and though I do not doubt in the slightest that if your math is correct that I personally would start using krivine machines 23:00:29 I still would program a concatenative language in that krivine machine and not the regular math system that they teach in schools 23:01:09 now don't get me wrong my language will try to be as accurate as possible to the real mathematical properties of the universe, but I've done too much school math and too much forth not to say that forth is easier 23:01:34 --- quit: ASau (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:01:35 Now I've extended my offer to you to work on you with this krivine machine thing so that we can have a go at it, and within that krivine machine you are very welcome to implement whatever you'd like 23:01:42 eh what a panzy 23:02:39 anyway 23:02:44 I am basically thinking about getting a new computer 23:03:05 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 23:05:25 Anyway. 23:05:42 You can continue messing with Forth, sure, it's all your time you're wasting. 23:06:02 It just stays the same: 23:06:12 while you're wasting time on something anemic and powerless, others are writing things that work. 23:06:16 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 23:07:36 you say "anemic" and "powerless". What do you mean by this? 23:07:52 nothing. 23:08:03 let him represent himself 23:08:13 ah he left again 23:08:28 though with his frequent disconnects and reconnects I wonder if it is not his machine doing that 23:20:03 John[Lisbeth]: He's clearly using an IRC program implemented by Real People doing Real Work in Real Languages. :P 23:20:07 For *maximum* fucking irony. 23:27:49 yeah netbsd I suppose 23:27:56 though I mean there is actual work done with netbsd 23:28:04 so for all we know he has a very serious netbsd job 23:28:04 koz_: where can I press this "save to favourites" button? :-D 23:28:40 pardon my engrish 23:28:50 nerfur: I don't think I understand what you mean, sorry. 23:29:13 I mean I like your phrase ) 23:29:19 nerfur: Thank you. :) 23:36:21 I've not seen this one, yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK1zlz67MjU 23:50:44 I had dinner and interesting conversation with Chuck in November. 23:56:43 orly? 23:59:22 I'd like to talk to that guy before he's gone. 23:59:51 He's 80 years old now. 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/16.12.13