00:00:00 --- log: started forth/16.07.05 00:15:10 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 00:16:26 --- join: karswell (~user@36.48.115.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 01:49:41 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 01:59:09 --- join: taij33n (z81ylicfT3@volans.uberspace.de) joined #forth 02:34:03 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.216.104) joined #forth 03:10:15 --- join: nighty (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 05:08:45 --- quit: dram (Quit: dram) 05:48:17 gordonjcp: have _you_ ever seen Java? 05:48:39 It sounds like you've only heard of it. 05:49:11 DGASAU: I used to have to use it 05:49:12 DGASAU: it's shit 05:49:29 "Used to" as in? 05:49:35 Wrote student lab? 05:49:37 DGASAU: its only redeeming feature is that it compiles to bytecode that runs on a stack-based VM 05:49:48 no, I've never studied comp sci 05:49:52 So, only a student lab. 05:50:05 Or something of similar complexity. 05:51:03 actually I spent several months unfucking a vehicle tracking system written in Java 05:52:39 and by "unfucking" I mean "reverse engineering the bits that talk to radios and rewriting them in C and scrapping the bits that draw the maps entirely and rewriting them in Python with a bit of C for a custom Python library to draw tiles to a Gtk widget 05:53:21 apart from going from about 12000 loc to ~3000 loc, it's maintainable and actually works 06:06:22 --- join: real-grue (~true-grue@176.14.216.104) joined #forth 06:10:13 --- quit: true-grue (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:44:57 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@14.207.97.108) joined #forth 07:44:58 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 07:56:33 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8103:f9d0:3cfd:65e6:6645:55ce) joined #forth 08:00:39 --- join: neceve (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 08:00:59 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 08:01:13 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:643:8103:f9d0:a812:5b69:1ba5:131c) joined #forth 08:05:45 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping 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17:29:55 --- quit: dram (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:30:43 --- join: dram (~Thunderbi@112.65.46.78) joined #forth 17:32:27 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 17:44:20 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@203.111.224.37) joined #forth 18:10:12 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:20:44 --- join: karswell (~user@31.185.246.110) joined #forth 18:21:04 --- quit: groovy2shoes (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 18:25:41 --- join: nighty (~nighty@202.224.50.1) joined #forth 18:34:05 --- join: groovy2shoes (~groovy2sh@unaffiliated/groovebot) joined #forth 18:44:47 --- join: Kumool (~kumool@adsl-64-237-236-114.prtc.net) joined #forth 18:45:31 --- join: neceve (~quassel@79.114.41.218) joined #forth 18:45:31 --- quit: neceve (Changing host) 18:45:31 --- join: neceve (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 19:02:01 --- quit: dram (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:19:18 --- join: dram (~Thunderbi@112.65.46.78) joined #forth 19:47:08 Friendly reminder that forth is a joke language and should never be used 19:48:59 oh 19:49:02 which forth? 19:49:06 factor? 19:49:08 oforth? 19:49:14 hp calculator? 19:49:20 its a damn good calculator 19:51:18 Skuzzzy: is oforth any good? 19:51:21 it looks nice 19:51:51 no, every forth is bad 19:51:54 mm 19:52:12 all stack machines are bad 19:52:31 Skuzzzy: why? 19:54:15 Kumool: I don't have anything prepared because I honestly didn't expect anyone to take me seriously. 19:54:33 I think though that Forth puts a lot of mental overhead on managing the stack which I beleive is a waste of time 19:55:30 In other languages, say c-like languages you move variables around in your scope and don't really have to worry about where they are positionally, I find having to worry about positionally where to put my data is a bit of a waste of a programmers time 19:56:14 Stack machines comingle managing the position of the data and how you treat it, so they are really only good for low level languages 19:56:15 I 19:56:25 I have not seen a decent high level forth yet for that reason 19:57:31 it might no longer be considered a forth at that point perhaps 20:04:08 obvious troll is obvious 20:19:32 vendan: Usually I just shitpost and troll, but I think the points I presented are pretty reasonable 20:19:41 Care to tell me why you disagree? 20:20:07 do I have to disagree? 20:20:16 you are a troll either way... 20:20:40 No not necessarily, but I thought you might considering your comment. 20:21:15 well, personally, I do agree that managing stack flow is one of the harder parts of forth 20:21:24 there are mitigating factors, like locals 20:21:31 but that depends on your forth implementation 20:22:07 on the other hand, as I've gotten more used to it, I've started designing my words better 20:22:16 and so the stack has gotten easier to control 20:23:16 I personally think that forth's taken a bad rap due to lack of good IDE support, and the fact that you are often encouraged to "jump right in" and start building stuff from the ground up 20:23:37 How would you suggest people get into it rather than jumping right in? 20:23:55 I do a lot of programming in C#, and the only reason I can be as productive in it as I am is because I've got intellisense and such on my side 20:24:14 learn basic logic and plan out what you are going to do? 20:24:27 that's standard for EVERY programming language 20:25:16 skipping the flow chart and psuedocode for a project is a sure fire way to screw up a novice programmer 20:28:31 --- nick: vendan -> Vendan 20:28:51 --- nick: Vendan -> vendan 20:43:36 you dont have to plan what you are going to do in shellscript, instead you try something and with each step you get closer to what you want done 20:45:42 true, until you get to a point 20:46:27 there's a difference between writing a "parse blah out of this command's output" script, and writing a package manager in shell 21:02:01 yes, with enough complexity you do have to plan things out, but must you really plan out even the meager tasks? 21:05:22 "flowchart your addition function with gates" 21:05:42 well, when you are a novice? 21:05:46 yes 21:06:11 I say that as someone that's taking intro to comp. sci. with people that don't know programming 21:06:52 once you get past the "oooo, forth is like that RPN calculater I had way back when", you need to start planning 21:26:26 --- quit: neceve (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 21:41:00 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@c-73-166-108-48.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:26:38 --- part: DocPlatypus left #forth 23:21:27 --- quit: wa5qjh (Remote host closed the connection) 23:25:15 --- join: wa5qjh (~Thunderbi@203.111.224.37) joined #forth 23:47:40 --- quit: Kumool (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/16.07.05