00:00:00 --- log: started forth/16.05.11 00:15:40 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: ave atque vale) 00:27:04 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 00:27:24 --- join: nighty (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 00:33:52 --- join: fiddlerwoaroof (~fiddlerwo@unaffiliated/fiddlerwoaroof) joined #forth 00:40:51 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 00:41:38 --- join: JDat (~JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 00:50:33 --- quit: DGASAU (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:50:52 --- join: DGASAU (~user@lmpc.drb.insel.de) joined #forth 01:58:49 --- quit: JDat (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:41:49 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 05:03:00 Does anyone familiar with FICL know how to run the tests? I see a tests directory but no test directive in the makefile. I also can't seem to find info on the website. 05:16:49 Yes. 05:18:16 But I don't remember if I supported it. 05:20:01 test:; wd="$$(pwd)"; cd test && "$${wd}"/ficl ficltest.fr < /dev/null 05:20:24 Besides, it should be in the repository. 05:20:28 In any case, don't use FICL. 05:20:49 I haven't fixed those several critical bugs. 05:21:21 --- join: novavis (974349cc@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.151.67.73.204) joined #forth 05:22:07 Why don't use FICL? 05:22:36 Because it is a) Forth-like; b) buggy as hell. 05:23:29 --- quit: novavis (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 05:23:40 I see. Well FreeBSD uses it in the bootloader so in that capacity it's not going away. I'm looking into tests for the FreeBSD port 05:23:49 No, it doesn't use it anymore. 05:24:26 Besides, FreeBSD code is one of the best examples how horrible it can be when you do something more complex than toy project. 05:24:39 --- join: novavis (9735560f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.151.53.86.15) joined #forth 05:24:48 --- join: nighty (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 05:25:03 The FreeBSD man pages says it is based on FICL. Is that what you mean? Not actually FICL? 05:25:09 https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?loader(8) 05:26:49 Ah, well, it still uses it. 05:26:55 There were plans to kick it off. 05:27:10 In any case, don't use it. 05:27:22 There're more pleasant ways to waste your time. 05:27:58 hmm lol. This is not good to hear 05:28:24 I was interested because I've used forth before and I wanted to get familiar with the FreeBSD code base 05:29:10 FreeBSD's Forth is non-idiomatic. 05:29:17 Very much so. 05:30:58 This would be lesser problem, if writing idiomatic Forth were significantly easier. 05:31:37 Yet it is not, hence the code is frozen in its current style. 05:31:59 I am confused why the FreeBSD port say its on version 4.1.0 when the ficl SF page says they are up to version 4.0.3 05:32:18 IIRC, I have released 4.1.0. 05:32:29 Yes, I did. 05:32:30 Are there just no release notes? 05:32:42 No, I didn't care to modify web site. 05:32:53 Release notes come with the source. 05:33:18 ...if they exist at all. 05:33:56 I do not see anything. But 4.1.0 is in the title of the readme and in ficl.h and some other places. 05:34:09 Anyway, don't use FICL. It is broken. 05:34:16 Yes, I fixed a number of bugs in it. 05:34:25 Just to clarify, you are the maintainer? 05:34:33 Yet there exist some fundamental ones which require a lot of thinking. 05:34:57 Probably, yes. 05:35:21 Are there no others? Out of curiosity how do you accept patches? 05:35:46 Well... I don't. :) 05:36:07 Nobody uses FICL, and I advise that you don't either. :) 05:36:21 Hmm. Well if only for the sake of the current state of FreeBSD, that is disappointing 05:36:25 FreeBSD boot loader is a mistake. 05:36:54 It is legacy code that waits to be replaced. 05:37:11 With another Forth interpreter or by asm orc? 05:37:15 s/orc/or c/ 05:37:16 With Lua. 05:37:38 yay. 05:38:01 Well this has been a disappointing conversation. :) I'm sorry to hear things are so broken. 05:38:02 They had plans and were quite serious about it. 05:38:14 I wonder what happened that they haven't done it yet. 05:39:20 FICL works for boot loader only because there's very little needed for it. 05:39:59 Still, sane language is needed for it, otherwise you get the current horror. 05:40:31 Why would a better implementation not be sufficient? 05:40:53 Because it will be Forth still. 05:43:05 Even if FreeBSD people want to use runtime of similar complexity and quality, they can write recursive descent parser manually and have something sane instead of Forth. 05:43:13 eatonphil: if you still didn't n't get it ASAU didn't like Forth too much ) 05:43:32 I've just about caught on. :) 05:43:54 Interesting thread https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-hackers/2014-August/045874.html 05:45:52 fwiw freebsd is not even the only os relying on ficl in the bootloader. From what I heard, illumos uses it as well 05:48:00 You don't need to bring Sun technology as an example. 05:48:06 lol 05:48:25 They couldn't fix /bin/sh for two decades. 05:48:35 For three decades. 05:48:41 Would you consider writing an article on what exactly is the issue with Forth/FICL? (Or point me to an existing one) 05:49:24 The whole mechanism about exceptions is fundamentally broken. 05:49:56 The whole mechanism about source streams is fundamentally broken even if you fix exceptions. 05:51:41 Well... I haven't hit the limit they're talking about. 05:52:14 But I have removed a lot of useless code while understanding what they're doing. 05:56:02 Well thank you for the information 05:56:39 That discussion happened approximately at the time I touched FreeBSD boot loader, actually. 05:56:56 Well... I decided not to update FICL there. 05:57:07 It's up to them to do that, if they care. 05:57:17 I can help them, of course, if they do want it. 05:57:24 But seriously, they'd better move to Lua. 06:17:44 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@183.88.57.180) joined #forth 06:17:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 06:27:40 --- quit: beretta (Quit: Leaving) 07:02:03 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 08:12:06 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-207-249-139.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:17:37 --- join: JDat (~JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 08:29:15 --- quit: novaskell (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 08:55:41 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:05:48 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 09:11:33 --- join: novaskell (~novaskell@31.205.156.216) joined #forth 09:23:12 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:44:07 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 09:46:07 --- quit: saml_ (Client Quit) 10:31:44 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.48.140) joined #forth 10:31:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 11:32:25 --- quit: dograt (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:35:04 --- join: dograt (~dograt@unaffiliated/dograt) joined #forth 11:44:34 --- join: true-grue (~true-grue@176.14.216.104) joined #forth 11:57:02 --- quit: impomatic (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:57:33 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@253.165.199.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 12:40:43 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 12:41:38 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:42:47 --- join: karswell (~user@162.139.115.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 12:47:48 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-44-0-206.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 13:30:59 --- join: X-Scale (~ARM@2001:0:c38c:c38c:0:5769:fa61:c224) joined #forth 13:33:59 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:28:25 --- quit: dograt (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.) 15:29:44 --- join: dograt (~dograt@unaffiliated/dograt) joined #forth 15:36:14 --- quit: novaskell (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 15:37:21 --- join: novaskell (~novaskell@31.205.156.216) joined #forth 15:44:36 --- quit: X-Scale (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:51:00 --- quit: nighty (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:58:46 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:04:39 --- quit: JDat (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:34:20 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:34:34 --- join: nighty- (~cp@www.taiyolabs.com) joined #forth 16:56:38 --- join: nighty (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 16:59:37 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@pool-74-110-57-203.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 17:21:41 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:10:12 --- quit: novavis (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 18:46:28 --- quit: nighty (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 18:51:05 --- join: nighty (~nighty@d246113.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 18:53:04 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-73-220-86-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:09:02 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 23:08:25 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:08:45 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 23:24:00 --- join: JDat (JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 23:31:31 --- quit: JDat (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 23:51:54 --- quit: DGASAU (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 23:53:08 --- join: DGASAU (~user@lmpc.drb.insel.de) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/16.05.11