00:00:00 --- log: started forth/16.01.22 00:43:44 --- quit: qih (Quit: leaving) 00:55:10 --- join: xyh (~cicada@120.253.3.200) joined #forth 00:55:17 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@q029220.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 01:21:58 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:44:43 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 02:18:33 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:23:18 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 02:24:34 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 02:35:39 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:39:02 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@s229123.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 03:30:28 --- join: xyh (~cicada@120.253.3.200) joined #forth 03:30:30 --- quit: xyh (Client Quit) 03:31:05 --- join: xyh (~cicada@120.253.3.200) joined #forth 03:54:49 --- join: atommann (~atommann@222.248.65.23) joined #forth 04:08:21 --- quit: atommann (Quit: Leaving) 04:38:58 --- quit: proteusguy_satri (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:39:09 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:50:50 --- join: proteusguy_satri (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-181.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:51:50 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-181.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:51:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 05:05:38 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:06:58 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@pool-74-110-57-203.bflony.fios.verizon.net) joined #forth 06:30:50 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 07:07:00 --- join: netytan (~marksmith@84-199-68-107.ifiber.telenet-ops.be) joined #forth 07:07:28 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p57A2F24C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 07:55:03 --- quit: netytan (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 08:04:33 --- join: netytan (~marksmith@78-23-54-59.access.telenet.be) joined #forth 08:14:35 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Verlassend/leaving) 08:48:10 --- join: xyh (~cicada@120.253.3.200) joined #forth 08:50:41 --- quit: xyh (Client Quit) 08:51:22 --- join: xyh (~cicada@120.253.3.200) joined #forth 08:59:03 --- quit: bb010g (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 09:17:18 --- nick: xyh -> gyh 09:24:34 --- nick: gyh -> xyh 09:50:03 --- quit: netytan (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:07:37 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 10:12:30 --- join: little_bit (~tomkl@unaffiliated/tomkl) joined #forth 10:36:18 --- quit: Skuzzzy (Quit: Cya Weeaboos) 10:41:12 --- join: netytan (~marksmith@2a02:1812:1701:ff00:ece3:b5c6:315c:7201) joined #forth 11:16:13 --- join: bb010g (uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sjscetuvbyoimxwm) joined #forth 11:18:29 --- quit: netytan (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 11:43:04 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 12:38:55 --- join: netytan (~marksmith@2a02:1812:1701:ff00:ece3:b5c6:315c:7201) joined #forth 12:52:22 --- join: tp (~terry@ppp59-167-167-149.static.internode.on.net) joined #forth 12:56:27 hi Forth folks, my first time here so be gentle ;-) I recognise a few nicks such as bluekelp and ASau. I'm a embedded Forth beginner, but a experienced embedded guy who uses Mecrisp-Stellaris on STM32 13:29:31 hi tp 13:30:25 gday, hows life in #forth ? 13:31:41 Ive been busy lately writing XML extractors for Mecrisp_Stellaris using the ARM CMSIS SVD files, hopefully they will be useful 13:33:39 mainly for the embedded development phase 13:41:00 STM32? What kind of amount of memory does it have? 13:41:57 depends on the model and model variant, up to 1MB of flash I think. I have only used the lower end chips with less so far 13:42:41 but models such as the now obsolete STM32F051 I have still come with 64K flash memory 13:43:04 1MB of flash, program memory only or is the two (data and program) combined? 13:43:32 * Zarutian is trying to remember if STM32 is von Neuman or Harvard architecture. 13:45:33 32bit RISC core 13:46:26 that only tells me about the instruction set arch but nothing about the memory arch 13:46:46 basically I am asking if data and instructions are in seperate memories or not. 13:47:39 aha, I'm not sure 13:47:53 Im a beginner with STM32 as well 13:51:25 The CortexTM-M3 is a 32-bit microprocessor. It has a 32-bit data path, a 32-bit register bank, and 32-bit memory interfaces. The processor has a Harvard architecture, which means that it has 13:51:25 a separate instruction bus and data bus. 13:53:33 but do those two buses connect to a dual ported memory? Meaning that address 0x00000000 points at the same byte regardless if that address is used to fetch an instruction or a data word. 13:55:09 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 13:56:09 --- quit: asagk (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 14:05:45 Zarutian, Im looking thru the copious STM32 doc available, but so far nothing on whether the memory is dual ported 14:07:35 usually with MCUs you run the program from flash (sometimes block cached into small ramblock) and have data in ram. And those two dont share an address space. 14:08:46 --- join: asagk (~asagk@89.246.174.1) joined #forth 14:09:07 the internal bus design is somewhat complex with DMA and so on 14:13:16 as a electronics technician, I know about dual ported memory, but Im not a programmer, or a Forth purist. I'm learning Forth because it is so easy to develop MCU hardware with 14:15:13 so, you probably have programmed PICs and such? 14:16:53 yes, but only in C, and the development environment was pretty limited. That was a while back and I used the PIC16C74 in those days 14:17:07 not even in assembly? 14:17:21 Im a old dude, my first micro programming was on a National PACE around 1974 14:17:35 no, I'm scared of RISC assembly ... 14:18:19 The only real assembler I have done was with a SWTP 'computer' and 6800. 68HC11 14:18:40 and I loved that, to me it was smooth as silk, and the assembly just flowed 14:18:47 but not assembly such as for the Intel 8051 or the famous 6502? 14:18:59 oh I have heard of the 6800 series 14:19:44 68HC11 is used in SR04, a robot whose control architecture I like (the subsumption architecture of robotic control) 14:20:11 but if you have programmed in any assembly then RISC assembly shouldnt be that hard. 14:20:16 no, I was never attracted to Intel much, tho in 1985 I designed and fitted a dual 8085 coontroller to a industrial bottle filling machine. That was designed on a STK8085 board and written in machine code 14:20:40 you just have to spend instructions loading from memory into registers 14:20:56 basically limited addressing modes for most instructions. 14:20:58 I also hated the infamous 6502 after falling in love with 6800 14:22:02 what does 6800 do better than 6502? I am just curious? (I would love to use Harris RTX 2010 or such exclusively, if it was still made and supported) 14:22:08 oddly, now I'm into Forth, Im seeing a lot of machine code for STM32 as generated by the Mecrisp-Stellaris Forth compiler 14:22:54 well, Im no expert, so please forgive me if I ever sound like one. The main thing I hated about the 6502 was it's 8 bit (only) Index register 14:23:02 well, I am not familair with Mecrips-Stellaris but most Forths I have used have the primitive words in assembly 14:23:27 which meant one had to page above 8 bit addressing. The 6800 had a 16 bit Index register 14:24:09 oh, yeah the smallness of the registers were one factor. Hence 65C816 for stuff like SNES 14:24:15 I guess I saw the 8 bit Index register of the 6502 as cheap and nasty 14:24:29 the 6502 was cheap and nasty 14:24:35 Im lazy and would hate to have to keep track of paging 14:25:10 at least you dont have to do bankswitching in address space that is 4096 bytes in size. 14:26:01 I just never got why the 6502 was so limited, and why so many loved it 14:26:25 I was also amazed at the stuff Atari did with it in their Asteroids commercial game boards 14:26:35 limited, I heard, due to lack of die space, loved because people didnt know any other. 14:26:50 and they were cheaper than the 6800 family 14:27:14 "worse is better" factor basically 14:27:47 but Im lucky to be alive in a time of cheap tech that most can afford. My STM32F051 chips cost me $0.65 USD each, which was the cheapest MCU's Ive ever bought 14:28:07 perhaps you should look into "Stack machines: The New Wave" book (aviable on the net for free) 14:28:19 you get them 16 in a pack or? 14:28:24 ill make a note and check it out 14:28:36 I bought 480 of them in a batch 14:28:41 it by a guy named Koopman iirc. 14:29:30 what kind of package and is the pitch intoleratably small? 14:29:34 so they all came in sealed bags in plates of whatever 14:29:55 it's a somehat difficult 32 contact QFN 14:30:06 but small, 5x5x1.2mm each 14:30:19 and btw, I am too an eletronics techinican (closest translation of rafeindavirki) but I am mainly working in small scale manifacturing 14:30:47 considering they have 64K flash and 8k ram etc, amaxing 14:30:49 so I am familiar with the packaging. So probably it came in a tray 14:31:02 yeah, sorry of course youre right 14:31:10 some trays in sealed bags 14:31:30 most likely meant for an pick and place machine. 14:31:52 I am working with one designed in 1985 and built in 1987 iirc. 14:31:53 in 1987 I was senior tech in a commercal SMT assy plant, but that was long ago now 14:32:07 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Remote host closed the connection) 14:32:17 ever heard of dima optimat? 14:32:18 yeah, it's a SMT package afterall 14:32:37 no, we had Amistar and Dynapert PNP machines 14:32:51 Im also familae with a small Yamaha SMT mounter 14:33:12 never seen an SMT mounter. What does that do? 14:33:30 well, small compared to the big stuff, but the Yamaha was big enough to kill you if you got too close to the head 14:33:41 pick and place machine 14:34:00 sorry, my terminology is probably misleading 14:34:03 so probably large scale and fast without hoods? 14:34:14 yes, open machines 14:34:30 mechincal feeders for the components? 14:34:44 the Amistar had a rotary head and would place 17500 SMT components a hour back in 1987 14:34:52 wow 14:34:56 yeah, roll feeders 14:35:16 the machine may have 100 rolls in 100 feeders attached at any time 14:35:46 the machine I am using average around 200 componentes per 10 minutes so around 12000 componentes an hour. 14:35:47 the yamaha was the same, but smaller, maybe 50 reels of components 14:36:11 I used to specialise in rebuilding and calibrating the mounters 14:36:13 much bigger than I am working with. 14:36:25 we also had a die bonder and wire bonding machine 14:36:41 the wire bonder was very cool 14:37:01 so you could take dies without packages? 14:37:19 it was for welding 1/2 thou wires onto chips straight from a wafer 14:37:23 yes 14:37:59 we bought the wafers in packs of about 1000, with each wafer containing around 1000 dies, pretested 14:38:05 well, at least you had specialization going for you. I have to run an entire line by meself 14:38:17 it isnt long nor big though 14:38:20 thats cool, I love that stuff 14:38:43 when I worked for the firm with the Yamaha moy=unter it was in a terrible state 14:38:48 mounter 14:39:18 basically a semimanual stencil printer, small dima optimat pnp and a four unit solder backing oven 14:39:18 the mechanical feeders all had weak return springs, wich made them a lot slower 14:40:00 plus the calibration was out, so the machine was only doing about 50x boards a day when I started there 14:40:08 nice 14:40:34 we had silk and stainless solderpaste stencils, and a large reflow oven, plus the othe rgear 14:40:43 who was responsible for configuring the pnp to tell where to pick up the components? I find that part the most tiresome 14:40:54 and we also had a shitty wave solder machine I hated 14:41:41 the company I work for had wave solder machine meant for throughhole. It was relocated to museum or scrapheap. 14:43:14 not me. I confess Ive never set up a SMT mounter to populate a board, that was always done by the machine operators 14:43:37 my job was always to calibrate, repair and make sure the machinery was running at it's best speed 14:44:01 yeah, thru hole is a PITA 14:44:30 for machines sure but for oneoffs on perfboard/veroboard it isnt that bad 14:44:48 on the machines Im familar with, the machine would know where to go for each feeder 14:45:06 yeah, on perfboard SMT is the pita ;-) 14:45:27 and how would it know that? I have to config that myself. 14:45:51 it's all in the machine OS 14:46:13 each feeder is a roll feeder and fits in a specific slot 14:46:15 getting the z axis correct for proper pickup is pita 14:46:33 and the correct nozzles etc ? 14:46:50 the rotary head of the Amistar was like a gattling gun, was pretty cool 14:46:50 oh, I wasnt questioning about that. 14:47:12 picks up many components before depositing them on the board? 14:47:40 meanwhile I am working with a machine that takes one component a time 14:47:40 here is a pic of a matrix board I made a couple of years back with a PIC and Flashforth, it was a PITA, I should have just made a pcb: http://www.portertech.org/test/forth/PIC18F24K20-flashforth-board.jpg 14:48:27 yeah the amistar would pick up multiples and then spit them off onto the platters 14:48:43 yeah, the Yamaha only picked up singles 14:49:03 --- quit: bb010g (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 14:49:38 why did you go for an pic with this annoyingly small pitch? 14:49:55 for placing on small pcb :) 14:50:10 then I had this silly idea of wiring one manually 14:50:27 oh, you paid for that silliness dearly 14:50:29 the pitch is ok, I can work with that no worries 14:50:35 i did in time 14:50:53 but the routing? 14:51:24 I use a binocular olivetti microscope for all my SMT work, have a specialist iron, liquid flux etc, I enjoy smt, just not hand wiring it 14:51:29 yeah, a PITA 14:51:29 oh, I see this is stripless perfboard. Not stripboard with traces. (Most often called veroboard) 14:51:47 yes, no tracks, that would have bene worse 14:52:02 dunno 14:52:26 I hate track veroboard 14:52:29 oh that is right. You would have access to that nifty routing tool that someone on piclist released 14:52:49 wouldnt* 14:53:04 I should have made a pcb, I can do quite reasonable ones at home 14:53:26 and way faster than hamd wiring smt (as youd expect) 14:53:38 what do you use for the etching? peroxide something compound? 14:53:52 ferricchloride 14:54:02 I have a nice 4l jug of it 14:54:21 I only do the odd prototype with it 14:54:28 I have used that at school. Pretty effective, required us to use a small special room for it. 14:54:50 it is if it's hot, you can watch the copper dissapear before your eyes 14:54:57 nasty as hell though 14:55:10 I used to have a small air bubble tank and heater, that system was mega fast 14:55:25 can be, one just has to be careful 14:55:28 well there was an machine that heated and washed the pcbs. You never saw it in action. 14:55:44 once the ferric chloride is all used up, the garden loves it 14:55:58 ahh 14:56:05 your grass has coppery tint to it? 14:56:36 at the smt factory, we had single lines that would produce 2000 assemblies each day, with 80 production staff 14:56:43 lol, no 14:57:00 but that was back in 1987 14:57:12 and so much has changed since then 14:57:20 technology hasnt stood still 14:57:24 well, the used ferricchloride used at the school was shipped overseas for copper reclamaition 14:57:44 apparently plants love copper chloride 14:58:10 in fact garden shops sell it I believe as a suppliment for plants 14:58:18 80 production staff? Each one specializing in something? well I dont have such luxury 14:58:40 they normally worked in about 10 teams of 8 14:58:48 it was a busy factory 14:58:56 still 14:59:00 yeah 14:59:14 still, yours is a interesting job 14:59:32 do you do the whole thing ? 14:59:47 and because this is on an big volcanic island in the middle of the North Atlantic I have to do minor repairs myself 14:59:52 ie the solder pasting, run the mounter, the IR oven ? 14:59:56 I do the whole thing 14:59:58 wow 15:00:03 thats really cool 15:00:12 not big runs though 15:00:33 yesterday I did 9x4 pbcs (9 frames four pcbs in each) 15:00:44 I rememer one of the Dynaperts stopped working one day, the X axis refused to move 15:01:24 we had at least 40 people waiting for mne to fix it, the pressure was on. I found that the X axis servomotor brushes were work to the limits 15:01:30 probably a dirty encoder if it was servo dc motor 15:01:38 what size frames ? 15:01:58 nah, brushes on the commutator were worn to limit 15:02:00 about the size of an ATX motherboard so 15:03:20 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Remote host closed the connection) 15:04:20 and the damn improvising one have to do. Did you know that black permamaker pens are actually good to keep pick tools IR opaque? 15:05:25 or more precisely IR nonreflectant 15:05:43 but back on topic, Forth 15:06:11 you said you made an board PIC18F with flashforth on it 15:06:17 so to get them going, I removed the two brushes, cut the internal copper ribon that connects the carbon brush to the top of the brush assy and lengthened them a bit 15:06:18 thats around the size of the frames we had 15:06:19 tho we called them platters 15:06:21 all of the machines has dc servos with rotary encoders 15:06:21 some of those servoes were BIG 15:06:22 they would move the head across the table instantly 15:06:24 here is a sample of the pages Ive been putting up for the STM 'discovery' boards and Forth : http://portertech.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=69&p=77&sid=ebe8cb0f29179ce7daf586b1a5a0b73a#p77 15:06:26 yeah, you saw the pic of it 15:07:55 Zarutian, no I didnt know that re black permamaker pens 15:08:27 this shit was found out by the guy who basically had the same job I do now 15:09:52 also fixed an issue with an connectors on the backpane of the control unit of the thing not connecting properly with the servo control units. 15:09:55 amazing the good tips one picks up 15:10:27 connectors, always a source of problems as time goes by 15:11:19 well those had been giving the machine problems since it was commissioned. It occasationally would slam the head to eather end of the x or y axis 15:11:20 Zarutian, cold where you are ? it's been 37C here the last few days even up to 7pm 15:11:34 yahh, nasty 15:13:59 the guy who worked for the original buyer of the machine showed up (he works for the company that is the main customer of the pnp production line) for something unrelated sighed when I told him. Yeah the tech community here is rather small. 15:14:17 well, it is around 3 degrees celcious 15:14:32 nice, man Id love that 15:14:48 expecially after a week of 33+ 15:14:52 would you love the ultra short days too? 15:14:55 Im in australia 15:15:09 I dont know, I think i'd be fine 15:16:02 well the cold and the wetness are the only things here trying to kill you on daily bases. 15:16:36 every now and again there is an small earthquake, glacier floods or even volcanic eruption 15:16:45 that sounds awesome to me 15:16:56 can I come and live there too ? 15:16:57 ;-) 15:17:18 so you want to move to Iceland then 15:17:19 would not speaking Icelandic be a problem ? 15:17:45 hell yeah, well actually Im too old (61) but if I were younger, you bet, if I had the chance 15:17:54 most people here speak english fluently but it actually is an requirement for permanent recidency that you learn Icelandic 15:18:17 damn, ah well, it's a nice concept 15:18:44 I think Icelans would be awesome 15:18:48 Iceland 15:19:31 I love the cold, and things trying to kill you is nothing new to me, tho usually it's the heat, lack of water or fauna here that does it 15:19:48 pretty much the opposite of Iceland I guess 15:19:49 humm... here is an simulation you can do for feeling how it is here currently. Start your day by putting wellington or rubber boots on, then pour icecrush intothem. 15:19:59 hahah 15:20:19 thats a colorful simulation 15:20:58 the australian equivalent for you is to set the oven on low heat and crawil inside 15:21:17 then walk around on polished floor with microfiber pads under said boots without breaking your neck or falling. 15:21:36 is that a ice simulation ? 15:21:53 I confess Ive never even seen show except on tv 15:21:54 yebb 15:22:03 really? 15:23:03 well you can get sick of the stuff. Specially when you have to clog through it daily to get somewhere or walk on its frozen compressed remains. 15:23:37 I bet an Icelander can probably stand on an frictionless surface without much problems 15:23:51 hahah, im sure 15:24:38 i think the speaking icelandic as a condition of permanent entry is a excellent idea, your culture is too important not to have it 15:24:40 that is about a quarter of the year. Then there is the thawing, rains that skate between being just cold to be nearly frozen 15:25:10 sounds like heaven to me 15:25:44 but maybe it's hell, im used to heat of 41C so I probably cant imagine Iceland 15:25:45 oh the hillarity of seeing foreigners watch local commedity that almost all Icelanders have seen and make references to is priceless 15:25:55 oh i bet it is 15:26:00 what fun 15:26:10 "So, that what he fucking meant!" 15:26:25 every culture has it IM sure 15:26:39 hey so what about the Flashforth board ? 15:26:48 do you know Flashforth ? 15:26:52 nope 15:27:24 I bought 100 of those PIC chips, only used one so far 15:27:29 doesnt matter 15:27:32 I know eForth because I ported it to the DCPU and I have read through a few Forths such as the openfirmware for fun. 15:27:41 aha 15:28:58 I was pleasantly surprised how fast the DCPU port was, even though the emulator was running ontop of javascript in a browser. 15:29:35 java, eww 15:29:57 not java, javascript or as it is know nowdays ecmascript 15:30:15 I have no interest in PC based Forth systems, I use Perl for my business applications, mainly testing and configuring wifi gear 15:30:34 re java and c++: I think the language designers of those misunderstood what Smalltalk was about. 15:31:02 Im not a programmer, but I know smalltalk is a LISP dialect 15:31:17 well, I mostly use Tcl for text mangling (wrote a neat script to translate from one pcb fileformat to another) 15:31:30 clearly you arent a programmer 15:31:50 Smalltalk isnt a LISP dialect in the slightest 15:32:04 Ive heard good things about Tcl, and have been thinking about Perl-Tk lately, tho I use perl-GTK for the off gui app I write 15:32:31 oh, Im not only not a programmer, my memory isnt as good as it should be! 15:32:33 Tcl is used for much of scripting of cad software iirc. 15:32:56 yeah, it seems popular 15:33:15 Ive become a Perl addict, guess it's what one is familair with ? 15:33:28 probably 15:33:34 but again, only for business apps I have to have, I dont code Perl for fun 15:33:54 just to get stuff sone 15:33:58 done 15:34:33 been learning Lua for löve2d. One idea I had was to port the Lua runtime into forth so those games could be run ontop of extremely cheap SOCs 15:35:22 but mainly to fuck with peoples heads 15:35:24 Ive seen some people talking about LUA on STM32 15:35:28 haha, nice 15:36:22 but I like Forth on the bare metal 15:36:25 it is popular on the ESP8266 and variants 15:36:45 I like being close so to the bare metal I get iron shavings up my nose 15:37:11 yeah, thats what they were talking about I think 15:37:39 same here, Forth on the bare metal, Lua ontop of that to support higher level stuff such as object-capabilities, functional programming and object programming. 15:37:44 I make small instrument and controller devices, so I only need a small MCU, no wifi etc 15:38:06 I wouldnt know what OO was if it bit me on the ass 15:38:14 what do you think of this IoT stuff? 15:38:23 well I know what it is, but will never need it 15:38:34 I dont really think about it 15:38:42 im a bit blinkered 15:38:54 I tend to focus on my area of interes 15:38:58 +t 15:38:59 it sounds like this ubiqioutious computing to me 15:39:13 your area of intrest is? 15:39:23 computing has become ubiqioutious 15:39:54 I do wifi for work, but my love is industrial control, automotive electronics and instrumentation 15:40:22 oh, what is your thoughts on that Volkswagen thing? 15:40:27 also PSU design, analog design, closed loop etc 15:40:42 I thing that everyone is probably doing it 15:40:56 closed loop? as in closed control loop? 15:41:18 the pinheads in the EPA specify rediculous standards so all the car mfrs cheat 15:41:26 oh, analog design. I have been trying to understand how opamps are implemented. 15:41:32 yes, feedback loops 15:41:48 neat 15:41:54 opamps are the vw beetle of analog design thesedays 15:42:24 but I love discrete component design as well, hell I grew up with valves 15:42:54 I know what the component does, it compares two voltages and outputs the difference. 15:43:27 my first Forth project will be a fast Cat53 tester that puts a decent current thru each cable and is *fast* 15:43:44 the OP-AMP component ? 15:43:53 cat5e 15:43:53 the op amp component 15:44:44 I guess thats right but all opamps need negative feedback or they become comparators 15:45:05 sometimes one wants the comparator functionality 15:45:21 but theyre not a magic box, they suffer from noise, crosstalk, slew rate and hence mnax speed etc 15:45:24 such as in an sigma delta dac 15:46:26 yeah, but a specialised comparitor rather than a OP-AMP running open loop may be better depending on the aim 15:46:41 most op-amps are pretty slow 15:46:50 indeed 15:49:21 and theyre usually very noisy 15:50:10 for instance if you wanted make a amplifier for a crystal microphone to pick up all those cracks in the Icelandic ice shelf, a OP amp would suck 15:50:34 I just want to understand the princip behind them 15:50:45 doing a differential amp with matched transistors would make a outstanding difference to the nnoise 15:51:25 there are so many principles behind them 15:52:08 from the operation as a 'black box', to understanding the specs, to the creation on the bie 15:52:12 die! 15:52:24 apologies for my crappy typing 15:52:30 no wonder I never understood them fully like I do with say universal shiftregister 15:53:04 analog and sigital are so different in theory 15:53:23 yet every digital device is still a anolog design at heart 15:54:00 when you look at a high speed digital signal on a oscilliscope, you realise it looks a lot more like a analog signal 15:54:26 those lovely square waves often only exist in textbooks 15:54:35 that I know 15:55:15 one gets all kinds of ringing and there is no such thing as straight up or down slope 15:55:25 still, if digital didnt work, I wouldnt be here typing this to you 15:55:34 exactly 15:56:11 the faster the oscilliscope the less upright the leading edges are :) 15:56:26 --- join: Uniju_ (~frog_styl@cpe-184-153-168-78.mass.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:56:37 well, this has been nice 15:56:48 but I must get to bed 15:56:53 Ive worked for weeks on design where 20nS felt 500mm long 15:57:12 thanks for the chat, most interesting 15:57:22 see you again 15:57:31 I usually idle here when I am at home 15:57:41 cya around 15:57:46 Ill hang aboyt here for a while if thats ok ? 15:57:49 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 15:59:21 --- quit: Uniju (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16:20:24 --- quit: phadthai (Remote host closed the connection) 16:29:23 --- join: bb010g (uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yxrczgorgvnduuic) joined #forth 16:42:28 --- join: phadthai (mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net) joined #forth 16:47:31 --- nick: Uniju_ -> Uniju 18:28:48 --- quit: netytan (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 19:27:15 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:20:58 --- join: Kumool (~kumool@adsl-64-237-234-25.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:30:03 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:48:47 --- quit: little_bit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 20:51:33 --- join: Kumool_ (~kumool@adsl-72-50-87-65.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:53:22 --- quit: Kumool (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 22:58:29 --- quit: clog (^C) 22:58:29 --- log: stopped forth/16.01.22 22:59:03 --- log: started forth/16.01.22 22:59:03 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 22:59:03 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | http://projects.forthworks.com/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com' 22:59:03 --- topic: set by crc!sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-incoycbnpesmfspg on [Fri Nov 06 18:58:45 2015] 22:59:03 --- names: list (clog protist MickyW saml_ phadthai bb010g Uniju asagk tp ASau +proteusguy proteusguy_satri nighty^ karswell JohnMarkM dys X-Scale impomatic Keshl bluekelp newcup JX7P diginet2 _longines yunfan dograt ggherdov` DGASAU xpoqp irsol gde33 malyn nighty^_ TodPunk ovf +crc octophore sbp docl beretta djinni kulp cartwright dzho rprimus nisstyre carc Quozl` C-Keen rpcope1 segher) 22:59:05 yeah, Id like to retire, cant afford to yet 22:59:18 but I enjoy work most of the time 22:59:56 do you own farmlandz? 23:00:16 no 23:00:21 would be nice 23:00:28 yep 23:02:02 can people get internet service everywhere in AU? 23:02:30 no, au is way to big 23:02:35 and much is desert 23:02:54 but internet access is improving 23:03:12 it's 6000 km from one side to the other 23:03:43 thats like asking 'does Mongolia have good internet ?" :) 23:03:50 if your location lack of internet service, will it allowed to setup your own station? 23:03:52 --- quit: saml_ (Remote host closed the connection) 23:04:23 if you have the money I guess 23:06:09 how do you think of the west sourth AU, i found if i reverse the lattitude of my hometown, that will point to the west south AU 23:08:50 it's nice there, but Im used to the climate 23:09:00 it's hot, dry, not much water 23:10:21 really? its near the sea 23:12:03 yeah, but cant drink salt water 23:12:28 i should have said 'not much drinking water' 23:13:09 i think if au could build a very long pipe to lead sea water to the center desert, it will change much 23:13:11 ok i see 23:14:20 we have a 800km pipline to Kalgoorlie, the water took so long to get there when it was built in the 1800's, the engineer shot himself 23:14:45 and after he did that, the water did arrive 23:15:37 does that sea water? 23:15:59 it was drinking water from a large dam in perth 23:16:05 only for drinking 23:16:16 and has many pumping station along the way 23:17:24 then check this http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/oct/18/humble-potato-poised-to-launch-food-revolution 23:20:22 I love potatoes myself 23:20:31 who doesnt ? 23:21:11 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 23:24:11 sorry i doesnt i am chinese 23:26:45 no potatoes in china ? 23:29:11 we have, its just there are too many delicous foods here 23:29:29 that mafe potato not delicious to me 23:32:56 so true, I went to Hong Konk once and the food was delicious 23:33:08 I had sewead jelly, fried jellyfish etc 23:33:14 seeweed 23:34:04 it was the first time I used chopsticks, and found they were really easy as I hold the soldering iron and solder in the same hand for years 23:35:28 well hongkong's food are too weak to us mainland 23:35:44 lol 23:36:10 what area in china do you live in ? 23:36:22 I used to know someone who lived in wuhan 23:36:30 chopsticks is really a good found . simple and powerful 23:36:33 havent seem him for a while online 23:36:49 you mean ttmricher? 23:36:52 yes 23:37:05 i live near shanghai 23:37:10 hes a Forth advocate 23:37:48 aha, impressive town is Shanghai friends who have been there tell me 23:38:44 yep bettet than beijing for western people, but for ypu, shenzhen is best i think 23:40:48 I doubt Ill be back that way, I did my travelling when I was young 23:42:38 when you plan to visit shenzhen, try contact qih at this channel, he wants to visit there too, also je is australian but live in nz 23:43:15 i have had a really looong talk with hi,yesterday 23:43:40 yeah I have talked with qih a lot 23:43:59 hes just getting into embedded 23:44:16 I set up my STM32F3 page for him 23:44:25 yep we all choose stm32 and forth ;] 23:44:54 it's a logical choice, STM has a lot of FLOSS support 23:46:59 but there are planty of different Forths and chips 23:47:57 and its cheap of the dev board, that means a lot to me, iearn less compared to my competors in silicon valley 23:48:22 yeah, the Disco boards are very cheap 23:48:40 and some chinese versions much cheaper in china 23:48:55 i knew there are amforth whick could be flashed to audrino uno 23:49:00 yep 23:49:10 which have a atmega328 23:49:12 it looks ok, and is very mature 23:49:27 yes, but thats a old chip thesedays 23:49:40 zillions of them about however 23:49:55 they called that forthduino 23:50:51 yes and 8 bit is not convenient, qhich caused me consider stm32 23:54:49 yes, 8 bit is so yesterday 23:57:08 plus even my $0.62 STM32F051 has 10 bit A-D 23:57:25 48MHz, 64K Flash etc 23:57:51 AVRs are really showing their age nowadays 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/16.01.22