00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.11.16 00:01:24 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:59:05 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@ag136174.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp) joined #forth 01:24:05 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:29:23 --- join: atommann (~atommann@210.3.149.230) joined #forth 01:57:06 --- quit: asagk (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 02:00:01 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Ave atque vale) 02:10:08 --- join: asagk (~asagk@i59F6CFCF.versanet.de) joined #forth 02:16:50 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:23:36 --- quit: atommann (Quit: Leaving) 02:34:21 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@14.207.9.5) joined #forth 02:34:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 03:02:44 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 03:32:44 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@46.62.171.26) joined #forth 03:39:31 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-161.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 03:39:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 04:07:31 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 04:09:03 absentia: How about https://github.com/ReturnInfinity/BareMetal-OS ? 04:39:57 --- quit: proteusguy_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:41:26 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-161.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 05:00:37 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 05:23:01 yup 05:28:01 I think last time I checked it didn't have tcp/ip -- but now it looks as if it has a port of iwip 05:30:42 There's also ... olibrios (minuet) ... and if I want to go a bit larger, "micro core" linux dist. there's a huge jump up from 1MB to 8MB -- but the micro core gets me a "standard" system -- with the ability to have much more potential for colaboration. 05:31:00 minix3 arch looks interesting -- but it seems bloated. :-< 05:31:11 first minix ran in 64KB .. now you need GBs 05:31:12 :-< 05:53:28 --- quit: bb010g (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:53:30 --- quit: ggherdov` (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:55:37 --- join: bb010g (uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nxqodkbwizcmavbu) joined #forth 05:58:52 --- join: ggherdov` (sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gbkgjjaarabgdtav) joined #forth 06:32:30 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 06:33:23 --- quit: proteusguy_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 06:34:59 --- nick: michal1 -> tangentstorm 06:35:58 --- quit: nighty-_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:38:33 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 06:45:31 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-186.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:45:31 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 06:45:46 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-186.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:48:52 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@s1439095.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) joined #forth 07:32:33 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@69.sub-75-241-190.myvzw.com) joined #forth 07:37:07 --- join: true-grue (~grue@176.14.216.104) joined #forth 07:41:08 --- quit: nighty-_ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 07:52:46 --- nick: xyh -> Mr_M 07:52:51 --- nick: Mr_M -> Mr-M 07:54:24 --- nick: Mr-M -> xyh 07:55:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 08:01:17 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:01:21 --- quit: proteusguy_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 08:04:44 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-186.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 08:04:44 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 08:05:01 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-186.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 08:16:03 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 09:10:33 --- quit: bb010g (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 09:16:09 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@ip-64-134-146-245.public.wayport.net) joined #forth 09:22:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 09:47:32 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@85.sub-75-219-135.myvzw.com) joined #forth 09:58:14 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 10:00:22 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@85.sub-75-219-135.myvzw.com) joined #forth 10:48:56 --- quit: xyh (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.39/20151111142545]) 11:25:56 --- part: absentia left #forth 11:29:36 --- join: xyh (~cicada@108.61.217.77) joined #forth 11:31:14 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 11:32:36 --- join: mat4 (~claude@ip5b40a018.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 11:32:38 hello 11:36:12 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 11:36:30 --- join: xyh (~cicada@108.61.217.77) joined #forth 12:07:46 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:400:8000:3da0:b58f:1eb6:7742:a49f) joined #forth 12:08:46 --- join: bb010g (uid21050@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gmzghcssretfetdu) joined #forth 12:17:21 --- quit: xyh (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [SeaMonkey 2.39/20151111142545]) 12:20:16 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 12:23:35 --- join: absentia (~scott@nsa.spy.org) joined #forth 12:23:37 https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/AcqnHxflT58%5B201-225%5D 12:40:51 absentia: You are in search for a Forth environment whoch does not depend on an operating system ? 12:41:03 ^whoch=which 12:44:11 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Remote host closed the connection) 12:47:09 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 12:52:36 --- quit: mat4 (Quit: leaving) 13:09:30 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 13:12:35 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 13:16:02 --- nick: JX7P -> NotJx7p 13:44:29 --- join: ASau` (~user@176.2.135.44) joined #forth 13:44:53 yes 13:45:24 but it seems that's old school -- not really important these days... it's better to get a minimal base system -- that has good support ... good system calls/libraries... and then just run a forh on top of it. 13:46:00 minix3 has the self healing architecture... nice, but it seems perhaps overkill? so mini core linux seems the best bet. 13:46:09 absentia: depends on what you are running on top of 13:46:33 really, what I wanted was a boot to forth + tcipip 13:47:13 it seems that minuet (kolibrios os?) has IWip or something now... so you can get that os + tcpip ... in under 2MB ... and I'm sure I could whip up a FASM forth to drop on top... 13:47:35 absentia: I would use a forth on bare metal if I am doing hard realtime control, need high energy eficency or more 13:47:52 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:47:54 I mostly just want to not have all the overhead of a bloated OS 13:48:15 but, alas, part of the coast of that bloat is support. 13:48:18 then 2MB is somewhat fat but workable 13:48:23 that is, support for networking devices, etc. 13:48:51 well, I pulled that size out of my a$$ 13:49:17 I use to use sun 3/50s 13:49:19 numerous networking devices on top of PCI connected ethernet card or? 13:49:38 those had like 2MB of ram? and ran a graphical UI, allowed multiple users... had all kids of networking support... etc. 13:49:49 I just don't see why I need 1GB of ram to run a close to the metal forth. 13:49:56 on a modern piece of hardware. 13:50:03 (ie: not embedded) 13:50:06 absentia: sun 3/50s? Small form factor, rediculus processing speed when it came out? 13:50:24 no... they were 68020 ... 15Mhz if that. 13:50:43 ah, most of the software bloat is due to hardware bloat iirc 13:50:49 yes, it's CISC vs RISC and not 64bit... but that's not the point either. 13:50:52 that is, unclean interfaces 13:51:20 I'm trying to figure out what language I want to do DSLs in ... I did /bin/sh for a long time... and perl for a long time -- and I found myself making DSLs over and over. 13:51:50 hmm.. Lua, Forth, Scheme and Tcl come to mind 13:52:14 forth seems like it's perfect for a DSL creating embeddable DSL language for things that I work on... and at some point, I may want to just run some of my code as close to the metal as possible. 13:52:27 tcl is dog a$$ fugly and slow. 13:52:48 lua is ok. scheme is also not as practical, yet, you could implement a basic scheme in forth fairly easily. 13:53:02 absentia: why is Tcl dog arse ugly? 13:53:36 last time I used it, and bear in mind that was a looong time ago -- the syntax was ambiguous and it was just not clean. 13:53:47 yeah I think I have somewhere an Lisp or Scheme implementation somewhere on my disk 13:53:57 ambigious syntax? 13:54:11 so you have low level with forth, high level with scheme ... (but scheme will blow up your memory) 13:54:37 not important ... tcl is dead. 13:54:41 in Tcl everything is a command while in Forth everything is word (program text wise that is) 13:55:00 why does Scheme blow up ones memory? 13:55:39 are you doing Scheme where everything is made out of cons cells and uints? 13:56:56 http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=sbcl&lang2=gpp 13:57:33 anyway, I think we're getting off topic/point... 13:57:54 I was just investigating if there was a way to run forth close to bare metal -- where there was tcp/ip ... and the answer is that there is not... 13:58:10 but more so, the answer is this is no longer the best/proper way to run forth. 13:58:27 now it's better to run it on top of an OS ... perhaps a thin one... but still on top. 13:58:28 on PCs? no 13:58:40 so the question is only which. 13:58:42 yes 13:58:49 on embedded? yes 13:58:52 no 13:59:10 iphone, ipad, mac book pro, etc. 13:59:55 those arent 'embedded' they are more like minutarized pcs. I am talking about stuff that runs for years on one battery or ECUs 14:00:11 ya, I don't really need that. 14:00:12 oh, I misunderstood 14:00:37 I'm just trying to get more efficiency by not having a bloated os 14:00:43 are you familiar with kdb+/q ? 14:00:59 so "Build your own Linux" or something like that could help you 14:01:13 or you could go with busybox if that isnt too big for you 14:01:14 language is small enough to fit in the cpu cache... runs on top of an os, yes... but it has tcpip/ database.. lots of nice things built in. 14:01:53 havent heard of kdb+/q 14:01:54 what is busybox? 14:02:23 extremely cut down linux distro without most of the gnu crap and other bloatness iirc 14:02:57 BusyBox combines tiny versions of many common UNIX utilities into a single small executable. 14:04:51 seen it used in on top boxes for satelite decoding, in some wifi enabled sd card (for photographers that dont want to bother with taking the card out and putting it in all the time) 14:05:28 busybox appears to be a single program -- not an os 14:05:42 the smallest os I could find was micro core (part of tiny core) 14:05:53 (it is often also hacked to function as wireless deaddrop, sometimes with a solarcell) 14:51:25 --- join: Tod-Autojoined (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 14:54:09 --- quit: dzho (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:54:09 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:54:09 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:54:39 --- quit: diginet (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:55:07 --- quit: TodPunk (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:55:42 --- join: segher (segher@bombadil.infradead.org) joined #forth 14:55:43 --- join: dzho (~dzho@unaffiliated/dzho) joined #forth 14:57:19 --- join: Keshl_ (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 14:59:57 --- join: Frek_ (~fredrik@traktor.sonixwave.com) joined #forth 14:59:57 --- join: diginet (~diginet@107.170.146.29) joined #forth 15:00:38 --- quit: bb010g (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 15:03:07 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:05:23 --- join: true-grue (~grue@176.14.216.104) joined #forth 15:07:11 --- quit: Keshl (*.net *.split) 15:07:11 --- quit: proteusguy_ (*.net *.split) 15:07:11 --- quit: Frek (*.net *.split) 15:07:11 --- quit: dys (*.net *.split) 15:07:47 --- join: dys (~dys@ip-109-44-182-54.web.vodafone.de) joined #forth 15:09:21 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com) joined #forth 15:13:50 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-186.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 15:14:05 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:21:09 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 17:32:02 --- join: xyh (~cicada@108.61.217.77) joined #forth 17:44:46 --- join: ASau`` (~user@176.4.33.126) joined #forth 17:48:25 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 17:53:04 --- join: atommann (~atommann@210.3.149.230) joined #forth 18:04:00 --- nick: NotJx7p -> JX7P 18:12:09 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@s1439095.xgsspn.imtp.tachikawa.spmode.ne.jp) joined #forth 18:29:10 --- quit: nighty-_ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 19:05:49 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 19:23:33 --- join: xyh` (~xieyuheng@113.87.242.143) joined #forth 19:23:58 --- nick: xyh` -> xmw` 19:24:17 --- nick: xmw` -> xvw 19:25:27 --- nick: xvw -> o__o 19:26:56 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-73-220-86-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:42:03 --- nick: Keshl_ -> Keshl 19:44:15 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@5.238.140.241) joined #forth 19:55:15 --- nick: Tod-Autojoined -> TodPunk 20:50:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:00:32 --- quit: bluekelp_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:00:32 --- quit: _longines (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:00:33 --- quit: sbp (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:01:32 --- join: sbp (~sbp@tea.infomesh.net) joined #forth 21:03:13 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@bluekelp.com) joined #forth 21:15:45 --- join: _longines (~longines@static.95.25.4.46.clients.your-server.de) joined #forth 21:16:41 --- join: Bahman_ (~Bahman@5.238.140.241) joined #forth 21:17:01 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:17:45 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@14.207.9.5) joined #forth 21:17:45 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:25:43 --- quit: Bahman (*.net *.split) 21:38:26 --- join: mtsd (~mtsd@h-79-136-49-171.na.cust.bahnhof.se) joined #forth 21:45:00 --- join: ASau``` (~user@176.6.47.109) joined #forth 21:48:28 --- quit: ASau`` (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:59:21 --- quit: o__o (Remote host closed the connection) 22:00:16 --- nick: xyh -> o--o 22:02:56 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@113.87.242.143) joined #forth 22:03:13 --- nick: o--o -> xyh- 22:03:28 --- nick: xyh -> o--o 22:05:57 --- nick: xyh- -> xyh 22:06:38 --- quit: o--o (Remote host closed the connection) 22:22:32 --- join: atommann (~atommann@210.3.149.230) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.11.16