00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.10.30 00:14:04 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@183.88.38.159) joined #forth 00:14:04 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 00:19:25 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 00:44:18 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00:56:19 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:56:41 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 01:45:27 --- join: atommann (~atommann@183.11.178.99) joined #forth 01:45:52 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 01:47:20 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@183.88.38.159) joined #forth 01:47:21 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 01:57:11 --- join: atommann_ (~atommann@183.37.23.124) joined #forth 02:00:30 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:55:41 --- quit: asagk (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:08:39 --- join: asagk (~asagk@i59F6BED7.versanet.de) joined #forth 03:09:52 --- quit: atommann_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:35:10 --- quit: 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11:47:54 --- join: diginet (~diginet@107.170.146.29) joined #forth 11:52:06 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 12:09:54 --- join: xyh (~xyh@183.14.253.218) joined #forth 12:33:44 --- join: goglosh (~user@177.243.167.136) joined #forth 13:39:36 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-73-220-86-28.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:40:39 --- join: mat4 (~claude@ip5b40a018.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 13:40:42 hello 13:53:11 --- quit: mat4 (Quit: Verlassend) 13:55:46 https://github.com/ForthHub/discussion/issues/14#issuecomment-152646719 13:56:57 --- nick: xyh -> cicada 13:57:27 --- nick: cicada -> Guest58798 13:57:38 --- nick: Guest58798 -> xyh 13:57:59 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 15:06:18 --- join: ASau (~user@netbsd/developers/asau) joined #forth 15:18:26 --- quit: goglosh (Remote host closed the connection) 15:54:01 --- join: MickyW (~MickyW@p4FE8C708.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 16:08:08 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:08:17 --- quit: proteusguy_ (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 16:21:04 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-252.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 16:21:23 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-252.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 16:21:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 16:49:21 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:57:29 --- quit: MickyW (Quit: Verlassend/leaving) 17:33:38 --- join: goglosh (~user@177.243.167.136) joined #forth 17:35:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 17:37:26 --- quit: bedah (Quit: Ex-Chat) 17:43:35 how come forth is largely unknown? 17:44:22 I mean even lisp which is regarded as a weird language has a shitload of books, websites, and on and on, and people go really crazy about it 17:44:56 forth deserves nearly the same credit and it's largely unnoticed, how come? 17:45:26 it had its 15 minutes of fame, ANSI standards, etc. 17:45:58 i think as systems grew people preferred the "easier" path of C/etc for embedded and forth lost mindshare 17:46:11 >C 17:46:13 >easy 17:47:36 i think many people find it easier to "think in C" than in forth. the imperative, static typing, etc. seems people like this stuff as evidenced by the popularity of things like c and its offspring 17:47:59 I guess you're right there 17:48:01 i'm also not sure how well forth works for large systems. that's something i have no experience in 17:48:30 it's kind of saddening that C is the only dominant paradigm out there 17:48:37 forth is awesome for small systems, experimenting (building bottom up), and where resource conservation matters 17:48:56 and developer productivity. i think maybe these aren't as highly valued as they once were 17:49:37 scheme/lisp/et al occasionally some back, in some form; functional langs are (still) the new cool kid - but few people use them 17:50:01 again, i think it's because the imperative "I want you to do exactly A, B, C" appeals to people somoehow 17:50:39 some "real-world" usage I've seen was for firmware development and a few systems in the 8-bit era used it instead of ml+basic 17:51:18 right. but the 8 bit era is gone. now you can get nearly a full linux kernel (written in C) running on a $15 computer 17:51:26 ye 17:52:00 I remember playing with graforth on Apple][, it was pretty nice 17:52:05 resources are cheap, comparatively. nobody does asm, and forth was (in my mind) originally an asm killer. but didn't make the leap to applications/etc. 17:53:39 things like ATLAST - which merged C and forth - never really took off 17:54:00 instead the world got C++ o_O 17:54:14 hmm on the other hand forth-inspired languages have been popular in some fields of course.. postscript for instance 17:54:30 yes. it's a niche market, like forth itself 17:54:53 i don't know how much forth is still around outside of some older bootloaders. i imagine it's running some interesting stuff. 17:55:08 the coolest/most interesting technologies don't always last 17:55:31 i work with people who are still re-inventing/discovering (poorly) lessons Smalltalkers learned in the 80s 17:56:04 they're often proud of their "accomplishments" too 17:56:05 sure 17:56:18 java went through the same reinventing process heh 17:56:22 ^ 17:56:49 i see forth/smalltalk/lisp/etc like i see amateur radio - it's hard to get people to care when everyone has the cool new iphone - with amazing resources (hardware) - and a mini radio built right in. they think, "why would i want to use amateur radio when this thing has the internet *and* I can call my friend?" 17:57:12 I guess that's it 17:57:41 people like shiny new, powerful things. simplicity, elegance, and frugality are folksie anachronisms. 17:57:58 so we're like woodworkers who prefer not to use power tools. while others like their table saws. 17:58:55 at least that's my opinion. i, intellectually, love many older technologies and what i've learned from them. i appreciate them for what they do well, and wish i could spend more time with them. 17:59:25 I just regret we're forced to C for everything 17:59:30 well, after having used C for 15+ years and discovering CL, I felt that CL was a power tool :) 17:59:43 :P ye 18:00:06 but, it's kinda sad 18:00:17 common lisp? 18:00:46 if I say "gee I'd like to make a project in forth/CL/smalltalk/something" it's usually "Gee I'd love to prototype my project in [language] and then port it to C++" 18:29:13 Alex Stepanov, the creator of C++ STL, has an interesting insight on why C is so prevalent -> http://www.iq0.com/notes/stepanov.c.html 18:42:09 well that was interestin 18:42:10 g 18:42:12 and succint 18:48:02 yes 18:51:34 I too think that's the reason C is popular 18:51:42 it maps directly into what the pc actually does 18:51:55 even if it leads to horribly buggy code with huge security holes 19:06:29 bbl shower 19:23:26 sorry about the last message, wrong channel :P 19:30:37 25 years ago C mapped pretty directly to machine code. now? heh 19:31:57 C is popular because it is popular. that breeds an environment where more people will use it, which makes it more attractive to invest in, etc. 19:32:14 and it indeed is not a bad language at all :-) 19:33:15 C's popularity was together with the pdp's popularity, and unix, etc. it helpeddddd 19:35:25 it's a domino chain 19:35:54 gtg seeya guys 19:35:57 --- quit: goglosh (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)) 20:42:44 --- join: BotScratcher (nmz@bitcoinshell.mooo.com) joined #forth 21:39:19 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 21:40:49 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-252.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 21:40:49 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:56:02 --- join: atommann_ (~atommann@222.248.84.207) joined #forth 22:04:47 --- quit: djinni (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:05:49 --- quit: segher (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:06:51 --- quit: JX7P (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:06:51 --- join: segher (segher@bombadil.infradead.org) joined #forth 22:06:55 --- join: djinni 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