00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.08.29 00:08:32 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Remote host closed the connection) 00:57:05 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.108.139) joined #forth 00:58:10 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-245.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 00:58:10 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 01:04:11 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:27:08 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144233149.atnat0042.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 01:35:17 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 01:35:41 --- join: xyh (~xyh@113.116.1.120) joined #forth 02:17:32 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 02:28:11 --- join: Zackshi (~unknown@78.90.30.16) joined #forth 02:29:51 --- join: protist (~javery@184.237.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 02:33:18 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:38:43 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@248.snat-111-91-96.hns.net.in) joined #forth 02:38:57 hello ... :) 02:39:02 asau! 02:39:06 you are still around! 02:39:09 cool. 02:39:55 man, i miss the older times, alexej, michael, etc. 02:40:21 of course, there was the guy from chin, i think yunfan. 02:40:38 where are all of those oldies? 02:51:21 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 03:07:38 mayuresh: Hello. On what problems (apps if You wish) are You working on? 03:08:00 right :) 03:08:31 i am looking to work on autonomous distributed systems for home automation. 03:09:05 and thanks for writing in danilo. :) 03:10:18 the crazy part is, i have only been an app level developer for the past 20 years. 03:10:58 using simple stuff like dbase, foxpro, ms access, html, css, js, etc. 03:11:07 and a bit of lisp in the very early days. 03:11:37 so, since my last long term visit to this channel, i have gone on to thinking 03:11:51 about how to get started with deep rooted embedded systems 03:11:58 using forth as the software layer. 03:12:45 i have been accumulating funds to support myself and my self-training 03:13:04 beginning with base level electronics, and then on to machine organization 03:13:13 before starting off with forth itself. 03:13:14 :) 03:13:25 By ``deep rooted embedded systems'' You mean cheap HW like 8 biters? 03:13:42 yeah, cheap on the power consumption level too. ;) 03:13:51 8 and 16 bit stuff 03:14:04 especially those microcontrollers from atmel 03:14:08 at-mega series 03:14:19 there's even "amforth.sourceforge.net" for them. 03:14:56 I see. What would You chose for first step? DS1820 thermometer? 03:15:13 i don't know, i just got myself a couple of books on electronics 03:15:25 to get started with, the "make electronics" series 03:15:37 i know quite little about hardware, actually. 03:16:04 there's one ambition, to build a smart sensor 03:16:09 Bottom-up approach is highly ineffective. 03:16:20 one which can sense (in)animate objects in 3d space. 03:16:27 asau!! 03:16:29 Top-down approach is goal-directed, it is nearly always a lot more effective than bottom-up. 03:16:41 how are you alexej? :) 03:16:56 asau, i really need to know about the foundational stuff, electronics! 03:17:05 What for? 03:17:12 i don't have too many friends 03:17:19 hence, i would need to build the hardware myself 03:17:19 If you want foundational stuff, you don't want electronics. 03:17:25 You want solid-state physics. 03:17:31 solid-state physics! 03:17:34 what is that? 03:17:42 care to elaborate please! 03:17:57 Also known as "condensed matter physics." 03:18:07 okay, getting to it on google now 03:18:10 aha 03:18:29 study of rigid matter through methods such as quantum mechanics! 03:18:36 This is exactly why top-down approach is a lot more effective. 03:18:39 not that deep level foundation stuff 03:18:55 asau, would you advise that i run with forth training first? 03:19:17 No. 03:19:49 danilo, thanks for that tip. :) 03:21:02 :) 03:21:43 If you want to learn implementing some programming language, you want to take some compiler construction course. 03:21:52 mayuresh: ``one which can sense (in)animate objects in 3d space. '' doesn't make sense to me at all. ``to build a smart sensor'' is even worse :) . You absorbed only marketing ;) . 03:22:14 It is usually one semester, but you can compress it to one or two months, if you don't have other commitments. 03:22:47 isnogood; i think if i could employ inverse doppler shift i could have achieved my objective. 03:23:26 basically, have a sonar like device, only it would be stationary. 03:23:37 infact, there's something i found just now 03:23:44 it's called "wisee" 03:23:55 and it's embedded implementation is called "allsee" 03:24:06 do google for it, it's from university of washington. 03:27:52 asau; i found this book "practical compile construction" by nils holm 03:27:59 http://www.t3x.org/reload/index.html 03:28:23 only, it uses 'c', not forth! 03:28:31 Do it in C first. 03:28:35 okay 03:29:07 thanks asau. 03:35:25 After looking and ToC, it looks like this book takes somewhat brute-force approach of writing recursive descent parser with embedded analyser or so. 03:35:36 That's fine for start. 03:35:54 Still an improvement over Forth. 03:36:22 I'd do it otherwise. 03:36:40 :) 03:37:05 i also found this gem of a book called "starting forth" 03:37:08 by leo brodie 03:37:24 would that be a good starting point into forth? 03:37:34 maybe followed by "forth application techniques" 03:37:39 * ASau shrugs. 03:37:40 by elizabeth rather 03:37:57 I wouldn't consider any advice from Rather. 03:38:34 ? 03:39:51 why is that? isn't elizabeth rather the first user of forth 03:39:58 other than mr. moore? 03:39:58 She behaves exactly as an old fart who marvels examples of "big projects" from late seventies while those are essentially student course projects these days. 03:40:06 :D 03:41:59 think about it, considering what she and moore achieved 03:42:08 back then, on that grade hardware, is seriously impressive 03:42:15 and all of it using forth! 03:45:05 What exactly did they achieve? 03:46:01 check out table 1 at; http://www.forth.com/resources/evolution/evolve_2.html 03:46:24 They never tell you anything in objective terms, since all this is advertising for their company. 03:46:41 hmnn 03:46:54 asau, you do have a strong dislike for forth, still! 03:47:47 What is important in their "comparisons" is that they sell Forth, solutions based on Forth and nothing else. 03:48:37 but, isn't forth really a nice interface between the user and the hardware? 03:48:42 No. 03:48:54 there-by eliminating a need for a huge hierarchy of components? 03:49:18 isn't forth a lot nicer to work with than assembly? 03:50:58 There's no need to eliminate what is introduced there exactly because it is needed. 03:51:18 Assembly is needed only rarely. 03:51:19 you mean to say an operating system is necessary on a microcontroller? 03:51:32 It depends on what you do. 03:51:37 okay! 03:53:23 If you're not going to replace your microcontroller or software on it, you can go without OS. 03:54:33 somehow, the whole concept of a desktop computer is strange 03:54:33 In fact, if you have more or less complex software, you're going to implement a good chunk of what OS does. 03:54:37 mayuresh: allsee is some gesture nonsense. What is interesting about it? 03:54:57 What exactly is strange in the concept of desktop computer?? 03:55:03 isnogood; the gestures are micro movements, if they can be sensed, so would entire animate objects 03:55:12 isnogood; think home security systems 03:55:34 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 03:55:42 isnogood; also, sensors for home automation 03:55:57 I'd never trust home security system that is written in Forth. 03:56:17 asau; that is hilarious! 03:56:22 asau; why? 03:56:52 Because it is going to be insecure. 03:57:05 mayuresh: Examples of ``sensors for home automation''? What do they measure? 03:57:07 I don't trust insecure security system. 03:57:15 asau; insecure is a feeling, unsecured is a state 03:57:36 isnogood; detect the presence of a person 03:58:02 isnogood; coupled with the fact that every person has an almost unique ear print, we can detect people without having rfid tags 03:58:40 actually, without needing rfid tags. :) 03:58:58 if only, the radio waves generated could be carefully caliberated 03:59:19 as to not cause any harm to the beings, yet be strong enough to read ear prints 04:00:17 Why is allsee better than a normal camera? 04:01:04 cameras need to be constantly moved to track the user 04:01:12 allsee uses radio waves from a static source 04:01:23 hence, it's quite concealed too 04:01:38 sorry for the mis-spellings, non-native english speaker. :) 04:04:06 --- join: nighty^_ (~nighty@184.149.39.22) joined #forth 04:04:18 hi nighty :) 04:15:02 --- quit: mayuresh (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 04:34:27 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 04:53:55 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@81.174.207.110) joined #forth 05:00:36 --- quit: MrMobius (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Would you like to know more?) 05:04:52 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@86.snat-111-91-32.hns.net.in) joined #forth 05:05:06 hello ... :) 05:13:05 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: off for a snack) 05:16:48 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 05:22:39 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 05:23:00 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@184.78.61.129) joined #forth 05:57:07 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-238-217.prtc.net) joined #forth 06:00:20 --- quit: Zackshi (Quit: Leaving) 06:03:32 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 06:22:21 --- join: johnmark_ (~johnmark@173.15.15-84-elmhurst.il.chicago.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 06:23:07 --- nick: johnmark_ -> JohnMarkM 06:24:11 --- quit: nisstyre (*.net *.split) 06:25:19 --- quit: pointfree (*.net *.split) 06:25:20 --- quit: C-Keen (*.net *.split) 06:25:20 --- quit: defanor (*.net *.split) 06:25:34 --- join: C-Keen (cckeen@pestilenz.org) joined #forth 06:26:17 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com) joined #forth 07:04:53 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@86.snat-111-91-32.hns.net.in) joined #forth 07:05:11 the rules mention no trolling! 07:05:22 then how come "asau" is allowed to be here? 07:06:12 the rules are actually trolling you 07:06:42 hmnn ... 07:08:38 --- join: gnooth (~gnooth@2602:306:cf96:8b60:e81c:6af6:a64:a6d1) joined #forth 07:08:50 hello gnooth :) 07:09:31 mayuresh, he was always in here. 07:10:32 yeah, that's what makes it even more strange. 07:10:57 he's always been here, yet always trolling "forth". 07:11:12 and yet allowed to be here in spite of violating the rules. 07:11:58 --- nick: Tod-Autojoined -> TodPunk 07:15:55 --- quit: gnooth (Quit: Leaving) 07:25:27 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: see you all later) 07:29:05 i dont think its trolling as long as its a valid point 07:30:49 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-64-237-233-189.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:34:21 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 07:35:13 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 07:40:34 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-238-217.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:46:24 --- join: kumool (~mool@64.237.233.189) joined #forth 07:49:41 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 07:49:54 --- quit: kumool (Client Quit) 07:50:23 --- join: kumul (~mool@64.237.233.189) joined #forth 08:27:41 --- join: xyh (~xyh@183.15.193.183) joined #forth 08:28:53 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 08:29:29 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@184.78.61.129) joined #forth 08:34:02 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 08:47:17 --- join: karswell (~user@226.177.199.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 08:58:23 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 09:01:03 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@184.78.61.129) joined #forth 09:15:56 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@48.snat-111-91-36.hns.net.in) joined #forth 09:21:28 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 09:23:35 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-245.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:23:35 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 09:23:48 hi proteusguy 09:25:53 --- join: alex_drom (~drom@c-73-158-61-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:29:48 howdy 09:29:56 good :) 09:30:03 you? 09:35:27 isnogood; i am going to follow the course prescribed by charles platt 09:35:50 isnogood; check out http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920031826.do 09:36:35 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 09:37:26 isnogood; i am still quite hopeless at forth. :) 09:38:00 isnogood; i am somehow able to grasp the essence of forth though. 09:39:54 isnogood; and so cannot understand the hostility exhibited by 'asau'. 09:42:10 mayuresh, your only error is attempting to ascribe rational behavior to our resident devil's advocate. 09:42:49 :) 09:43:22 :D 09:43:52 Is the Charles Platt book referencing forth in some way? I'm not sure I follow. 09:44:07 no, it is for noobs to electronics, like me. 09:44:10 I bet it is not. 09:44:48 i believe, learning electronics would make me a better forth programmer 09:44:51 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 09:44:56 when that happens, eventually. :) 09:48:28 I haven't found any thing interesting on that URL. 09:48:49 noooo, it's just a link to a book by charles platt. 09:48:55 one which i intend to work through 09:49:02 to learn electronics 09:49:12 before graduating to it's advanced version. 09:49:38 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 09:49:53 I see that. Nothing on that page convinced me it is about electronics. 09:50:01 :D 09:50:15 what do you think it is about then? ;) 09:51:53 isnogood; okay, then i should start with "starting forth" by leo brodie. 09:53:02 I wonder that myself. Do You know about [[http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Forth]]? 09:53:49 nope, checking it out now ... 09:54:59 hey, that's an amazing resource. 09:55:07 thanks for sharing it. :) 09:58:06 this one is quite poetic; http://rosettacode.org/wiki/99_Bottles_of_Beer#Forth 09:58:24 Starting forth is a great way to learn. 09:58:45 proteusguy, thanks for validating my thought process. 10:00:19 the good people at forth.com have a cleaned up version at their website. 10:00:26 I found that my forth background helped a lot with understanding haskell ( a pure, statically typed functional language). I found my hardware background helped me understand forth. Not sure if forth helped me much going the other direction. Certainly not for discrete circuit stuff. But it can't hurt. 10:01:14 yessss, that's exactly why i wanted to learn about electronics first. 10:04:42 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 10:06:10 hello zarutian :) 10:11:22 alrighty, time for me to hit bed. 10:11:29 see you all tomorrow. :) 10:11:33 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: off to bed) 10:19:56 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-233-125.prtc.net) joined #forth 10:22:44 ttyl 10:26:05 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 10:46:39 --- join: pointfree (~pointfree@c-73-142-162-42.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:47:12 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 11:18:33 --- join: proteusguy_satri (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-245.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 11:33:45 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 11:59:27 --- quit: alex_drom (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 12:08:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:241:8303:6500:6c73:2899:35af:d4cf) joined #forth 12:10:19 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 12:21:56 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@host-92-24-250-44.ppp.as43234.net) joined #forth 12:21:56 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 12:21:56 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 12:22:26 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 12:22:58 --- nick: _spt_ -> _spt|afk 12:24:29 --- join: defanor (~defanor@cupcake.uberspace.net) joined #forth 12:46:02 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 13:46:54 --- join: alex_drom (~drom@c-73-158-61-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:54:00 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144200254.atnat0009.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 14:23:55 --- quit: _spt|afk (Quit: /0\) 14:38:54 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 14:52:32 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 15:02:05 --- quit: FireFly (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 15:06:47 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 15:23:41 --- join: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) joined #forth 16:04:31 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 16:17:54 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-235-125.prtc.net) joined #forth 16:40:58 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 17:20:57 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Remote host closed the connection) 17:31:35 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 18:11:43 --- quit: JohnMarkM (Quit: Leaving) 18:49:06 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 18:56:16 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Remote host closed the connection) 19:40:19 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@184.78.61.129) joined #forth 21:01:43 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 21:09:23 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 21:12:01 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 21:40:04 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@184.78.61.129) joined #forth 21:44:28 --- join: xyh (~xyh@113.116.1.120) joined #forth 21:49:46 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 21:50:46 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-235-125.prtc.net) joined #forth 22:11:48 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 22:13:27 --- quit: proteusguy_satri (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:13:27 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:16:40 --- quit: alex_drom (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:31:17 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-11.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 22:31:28 --- join: proteusguy_ (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-11.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.08.29