00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.07.30 00:02:45 --- nick: Guest48094 -> dys 00:09:22 pkgsrc does have binary support kumul. see pkgin 00:09:39 it also has some primitive utilities, pkg_add or something of that ilk 01:05:47 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 01:09:05 --- quit: Keshl (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:09:23 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 01:58:28 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 02:05:34 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-145-170.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 02:44:33 --- join: Quiznos (1000@c-73-28-150-210.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:03:31 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:04:30 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 04:02:27 --- part: pepijndevos left #forth 04:33:12 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:18:26 --- quit: Quiznos (Quit: dont let the rice krispies get you neither.) 05:22:36 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-85-236.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:16:55 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 07:47:37 --- join: vsg1990_ (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 07:47:46 --- quit: atommann (Quit: Leaving) 07:49:39 --- quit: vsg1990 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 08:29:42 --- quit: crc (Remote host closed the connection) 08:44:50 --- join: crc (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zmflqddwyajthgmy) joined #forth 08:56:17 --- quit: ggherdov` (Remote host closed the connection) 09:11:41 --- quit: malyn (Remote host closed the connection) 09:11:55 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 09:18:39 --- join: ggherdov` (sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ddlvqdyevqnniebq) joined #forth 09:30:38 --- quit: malyn (Remote host closed the connection) 09:30:55 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 09:41:48 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144218232.atnat0027.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 09:42:44 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 10:53:34 --- join: ASau (~user@176.2.73.17) joined #forth 11:00:57 --- join: jn__ (~nope@ip-178-201-237-132.hsi08.unitymediagroup.de) joined #forth 11:00:59 Posted to slashdot: http://slashdot.org/submission/4704121/survey-of-programers-impressions-of-the-ada-language 11:01:16 Sorry, I thought I was in #Ada. 11:08:23 --- join: diginet (~diginet@107.170.146.29) joined #forth 11:31:18 --- join: ASau` (~user@176.2.73.17) joined #forth 11:32:43 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 11:33:18 --- join: cataska_ (sid12717@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-doxllxhmjrelmcqj) joined #forth 11:34:08 --- join: crc_ (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yycpchtjgdpqqnql) joined #forth 11:35:02 --- quit: cataska (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:35:03 --- quit: crc (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:35:04 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:35:04 --- quit: malyn (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:35:04 --- nick: malyn_ -> malyn 11:35:13 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 11:36:52 --- nick: cataska_ -> cataska 11:39:13 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 11:46:08 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 11:53:39 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144215158.atnat0024.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 12:35:28 --- quit: impomatic (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:36:26 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@31.185.136.135) joined #forth 13:03:15 --- quit: vsg1990_ (Quit: What's a Quit message?) 13:27:01 --- join: Mat4 (~claude@ip5b40b95e.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 13:27:03 hello 13:41:01 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-65-185-42-203.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 13:44:01 IRIXuser: from cursory look into local repository, I have quite a number of bug fixes. 13:44:37 Plus a version that provides 64-bit Forth on 32-bit system. 13:45:38 I don't remember whether I have finished fixing exception and I/O subsystems. 13:45:44 Perhaps I didn't. 13:46:08 I do remember that at least exception subsystem was severely broken. 13:51:50 broken exception system, bad code quality ... reads like Ficl 13:51:57 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@host-92-24-238-203.ppp.as43234.net) joined #forth 13:51:58 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 13:51:58 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 13:52:45 Not that pForth or gforth are a lot better. 13:56:19 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-230.prtc.net) joined #forth 13:58:07 pforth seems reasonable, if a bit jumbled and unidiomatic. gforth i've yet to try or look at 13:58:46 I disagree, at least gForth is a sophisticated and well designed Forth environment. The sources show also clearly the limitations of C for writing interpreters 14:03:06 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-230.prtc.net) joined #forth 14:04:22 gforth is implemented not in C. 14:04:46 It relies heavily on gcc extensions that are well beyond any standard. 14:05:44 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 14:05:45 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 14:07:50 please don't begin a discussion about C standards. The GCC related extensions are supported by most recent compielrs in use (such as ICC, CLANG and even TCC) 14:08:02 ^compilers 14:08:27 I doubt that clang supports first-class labels. 14:09:14 you can compiler gForth with clang (I have done it) 14:09:24 eh, compile, sorry 14:10:41 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 14:10:49 Mat4: What would be better options for writing [Forth] interpreters? LISP? Ada? Erlang? OCaml? ...PostScript? 14:11:33 The best is not to write forth interpreters. 14:13:10 Shark8: For an interpreter I think a recent macro assembler is much easier 14:14:12 For a native-code compiler the language is not so important as long as code buffers can be marked as executable (for hosted versions) 14:15:03 Mat4: Hm, interesting. 14:15:41 Use bootstrapping, Luke! You should write Forth on Fourth. 14:16:46 true-grue: Funny you should mention that, I've been kicking around the idea of a [Ada] compiler that targets Forth, that way bootstrapping could be a matter of having a core set of Forth-words to translate. 14:17:18 --- join: bedah (~bedah@host-091-097-173-250.ewe-ip-backbone.de) joined #forth 14:18:19 true-grue: of course. Any Forth would be a good choice for this (personally I don't like meta compilers however) 14:18:37 Shark8: if you have such a powerful tool as Ada compiler at hand, learn LL(1) and implement sane syntax (along with more or less clear diagnostic messages). 14:20:34 ASau: What do you mean by sane syntax? From most of my experience w/ Ada *most* error messages are pretty good. (Some compilers even cite the relevent section of the LRM.) 14:22:17 I mean that you can implement local variables, conditionals and various loops properly nesting and functional at the same time. 14:22:40 ??? 14:23:59 ASau: Ehm, ADA is in this respect similar to other Algol class languages inclusive C 14:24:17 (or even Swift) 14:24:57 Ada is not similar to them at all. 14:25:44 Ada includes a theorem prover essentially. 14:27:24 Well, at least a heavy amount of static analysis such that you get a lot of [C's] Lint with a compiler -- if you want full theorem-prover there's Ada/SPARK. 14:28:02 You misrepresent virtues of lint. 14:28:10 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%29 14:28:17 ASau: Howso? 14:28:29 ASau: A theorem prover is not part of the language specification. You misinterpret the nature of type systems with theorem proving 14:28:36 What lint does is part of original Ada as of 1983. 14:28:50 Mat4: it is part of language specification already. 14:29:13 then, post a link please 14:31:40 you can take a look here if you want: http://archive.adaic.com/standards/83lrm/html/Welcome.html 14:32:16 Mat4: let me see if I have more specific links. 14:34:23 Mat4: LRM from 1983 is obsolete already. 14:35:01 It belongs to history just like FORTRAN II, IV, -66 and even -77. 14:36:09 Just checked specifcations for Ada 95 and found no clue for support of a theorem solving algorithm 14:36:10 (Forth programmers are still half century behind the current state of field.) 14:36:13 Will the abstract of this paper do? http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/10722060_6?no-access=true 14:39:04 ASau: Obvously you aren't even able to program efficiently in a simple language as Forth so I think doubt your qualification for such a statement 14:39:50 apart from the lack of filial piety 14:41:26 hmm, the translation can be wrong, so sorry 14:43:40 Pf! 14:46:09 ASau: Mat4: This post from `93 indicates that the compiler did the [at the time]* functionality of lint: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.ada/RN3iQhFxV_A 14:46:10 * -- Lint has been expanded greatly into an actual static-analysis tool. 14:48:23 Shark8: how much have you used it? 14:48:38 Lint? Or Ada? 14:48:41 Lint. 14:49:08 Not often... maybe once in college. 14:49:32 It is used by default for libraries, so I use it each time I write a library in C. 14:50:01 My observations are exactly what I say: 14:50:29 its static analysis is restricted to imposing more strict typing discipline, 14:50:39 it doesn't check operational aspects. 14:51:09 Alright, it does liveness analysis. 14:52:08 Yet nearly all or all its functionality is subsumed by clang and gcc. 14:53:41 hmm, at least the code analysis of clang is quite good in my experience 14:53:57 ...an Ada compiler does all of that; with the possible exception of removal of dead code in certain cases [inspection points, from one of the Annexes, IIRC]. (Which I think was the point.) 14:54:16 Yes, that's the point. 14:54:32 Lint doesn't do anything beyond what is available in Ada-83. 14:56:03 but theorem solving is not restricted to type bounded livetime analysis 14:56:53 we talked here about theorem solving, not limitations of Lint 15:00:30 and for this I know only SPARK 15:00:55 Have you ever used web search? 15:01:08 In particular, ever seen this site: http://www.ada2012.org/ ? 15:06:02 have you ever tried a text search for 'theorem proving' with the language specification of that site ? 15:06:14 obvously not 15:06:53 Mat4: ASau: Ada2012 is closer to Design-by-contract than theorem provers, though what's really nice about it is that it unifies syntax so that SPARK2014 uses the same constructs [aspects]... the really nice thing about that is that, because they aren't comment-annotations, can stay in-sync with the code-base. 15:07:15 (Though there's some really nice things you can do with types in it.) 15:07:35 SPARK is basically the implementation of prover that works mostly on plain Ada rather than some annotations in comments. 15:07:59 Shark8: Yes, it's for sure a powerful language 15:08:42 If you want to really understand Ada -- just read Hoare's lecture. It's from 1981 ;) 15:09:09 ASau: True, now; previously you had to use annotation-comments to specify things like PRE-, POST-conditions, invariants, etc. 15:09:31 Same as Frama-C and other similar tools for C. 15:10:14 true-grue: I think this is better for understanding Ada -- http://blog.kickin-the-darkness.com/2007/08/fundamental-theory-of-ada.html 15:10:31 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 15:14:58 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:20:43 Shark8: actually, even Ada-83 beats a number of "modern" languages hands down. 15:21:44 Recall how people complain at missing optional {} around simple statement in the "else" branch. 15:22:35 ciao 15:22:38 --- quit: Mat4 (Quit: Verlassend) 15:22:41 --- quit: true-grue (Remote host closed the connection) 15:42:56 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:24:05 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: gone to fix a server for Staffc CC) 16:27:29 --- join: Quiznos (1000@c-73-28-150-210.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:56:13 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 17:05:51 --- quit: JohnMarkM (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:09:57 --- quit: bedah (Quit: Ex-Chat) 17:40:25 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 18:37:38 --- join: johnmark_ (~johnmark@24.1.223.32) joined #forth 18:42:52 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-65-185-42-203.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:43:40 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 19:04:29 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 19:06:15 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 19:06:33 --- join: dys` (~andreas@x5f71e100.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 19:06:35 --- nick: dys` -> Guest65178 19:07:12 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:10:41 ASau: I agree. It's amazing how well the design turned out. (And frustrating that a lot of the knowledge is essentially shunned because it's such a foreign idea to C-style languages.) 19:11:38 ASau: Dangling else... such a trivial fix (an end-if token). /why/ does this plague so many languages? 19:37:11 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:38:12 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 19:59:58 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 20:02:48 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 20:02:51 --- quit: Guest65178 (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:04:08 --- join: dys (~andreas@x5f727e53.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 20:04:18 --- nick: dys -> Guest97197 20:08:13 --- nick: johnmark_ -> JohnMarkM 20:13:57 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 20:15:14 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@2404:e800:e612:d79:353e:4070:f228:92a5) joined #forth 20:15:14 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 20:15:55 --- quit: Guest97197 (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:18:09 --- join: dys` (~andreas@x5f736491.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 20:18:10 --- nick: dys` -> Guest40851 20:41:58 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 20:45:25 --- quit: saml_ (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:07:53 --- quit: Guest40851 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 21:09:44 --- join: dys (~andreas@x5f71dc4e.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 21:09:45 --- nick: dys -> Guest11705 21:27:20 --- join: xyh- (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 21:32:50 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:33:01 --- join: xyh_ (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 21:36:21 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 21:36:26 --- quit: xyh- (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:36:48 --- quit: xyh_ (Remote host closed the connection) 21:37:46 --- join: xyh_ (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 21:37:46 --- quit: xyh_ (Remote host closed the connection) 21:38:03 --- join: xyh_ (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 21:42:30 --- quit: Guest11705 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 21:44:18 --- join: dys` (~andreas@x5f726d13.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 21:44:19 --- nick: dys` -> Guest88846 21:59:54 --- quit: xyh_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:00:35 --- quit: Guest88846 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:03:19 --- join: dys (~andreas@x5f72346e.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 22:03:20 --- nick: dys -> Guest18296 22:11:56 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.213.206) joined #forth 22:16:05 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:21:02 --- join: xyh (~xyh@14.150.212.47) joined #forth 22:21:19 --- quit: Guest18296 (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 22:21:50 --- join: dys- (~andreas@x5f71cda1.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 22:41:07 --- quit: impomatic (Read error: No route to host) 22:44:46 --- quit: dys- (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 22:45:52 --- join: dys` (~andreas@x5f734497.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 22:45:54 --- nick: dys` -> Guest86975 23:05:41 --- quit: Guest86975 (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 23:07:59 --- quit: kumool (Quit: Leaving) 23:08:24 --- join: dys (~andreas@x5f723632.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 23:08:25 --- nick: dys -> Guest86177 23:14:46 --- part: xyh left #forth 23:14:49 --- join: xyh- (~xyh@14.150.212.47) joined #forth 23:14:58 --- nick: xyh- -> xyh 23:19:10 --- quit: Guest86177 (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 23:19:55 --- join: dys- (~andreas@x5f722ecf.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 23:50:33 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-140-145.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:51:15 --- quit: dys- (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:51:28 --- join: dys` (~andreas@x5f722ecf.dyn.telefonica.de) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.07.30