00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.07.25 01:08:12 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-135-113.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:09:48 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 02:18:25 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 03:52:58 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@host-92-24-245-87.ppp.as43234.net) joined #forth 03:52:58 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 03:52:58 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 04:04:12 --- quit: FireFly (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 04:05:32 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 04:28:24 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 04:32:09 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 04:38:32 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 04:40:34 --- join: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) joined #forth 04:41:53 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 05:03:33 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 05:10:44 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 05:16:44 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 05:50:36 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 05:51:02 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@46.22.110.168) joined #forth 05:56:34 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 05:57:08 --- quit: FireFly (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 05:59:49 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 06:00:03 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 06:22:08 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:03:52 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 07:15:52 --- join: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) joined #forth 07:48:13 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 07:49:12 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 07:50:23 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-51.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 07:50:23 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 08:02:32 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 08:04:36 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 08:33:01 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-170.prtc.net) joined #forth 09:01:39 --- join: gnooth (~gnooth@2602:306:cf96:8b60:480f:80b9:676:1988) joined #forth 09:20:40 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 09:43:43 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 09:50:37 --- part: Soni left #forth 09:50:53 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 10:04:05 --- join: ASau (~user@176.4.7.103) joined #forth 10:44:53 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:02:10 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 39.0/20150630154324]) 11:35:15 --- join: xyh (~user@14.150.215.66) joined #forth 12:05:50 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 12:46:29 --- quit: gnooth (Quit: Leaving) 13:07:24 --- nick: MrM0bius -> MrMobius 13:13:58 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 13:18:00 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:26:03 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-135-113.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 13:52:37 i think i got a bit too hooked 13:52:42 now i started writing my own forth http://i.imgur.com/kj8acSw.png 14:00:06 Haha! Writing Forth in C++11. :D 14:47:11 --- join: trasz (~trasz@freebsd/developer/trasz) joined #forth 14:47:27 probably a simple question, but kind of hard to google for: what does '(' do? 14:47:38 the word '('. 14:48:06 i'm trying to figure out some boot loader code, and I don't have it under a VM, and don't want to reboot right now just to test it. 14:49:09 ah, wait, it's a comment, i'm an idiot, nevermind. 14:49:53 Ah, congratulations on messing with FreeBSD boot loader. 14:50:23 :-) 14:50:38 ASau: how did you know? 14:50:39 It's the best demonstration why Forth sucks as a programming language. 14:50:55 ASau: well, i guess it would be fine if i actually knew it. 14:50:58 Because I worked on it. 14:51:17 ASau: the closest i came was writing a forth-like minilanguage for arduino. 14:51:17 (And I'm one of two FICL developers.) 14:51:33 ASau: hm, perhaps you could give me some hints then? 14:51:52 Sure. 14:51:54 :) 14:51:59 ASau: my problem is, specifying whatever_type="xxx" in loader.conf results in the file being loaded twice. 14:52:04 ASau: and I have no idea how to debug it. 14:52:38 If they've got replacement in Lua functional, pull it up to your branch and forget about Forth. 14:53:04 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: gone to fix a server for Staffc CC) 14:53:16 ASau: i know there's a gsoc project, but I'm not sure what's the state of the code. other than the student is quite active. 14:53:26 trasz: What kind of mini-language? URL? 14:53:29 If not, you'll have big problems figuring it out why it works the way you see. 14:53:48 trasz: then it is useful to check it. 14:54:02 DKordic: no url, i'm afraid; i basically needed a usb-connected gpio. 14:54:25 I see. 14:54:27 ASau: still, it might take a while to get it merged. 14:54:40 ASau: and this looks like a simple bug. 14:54:48 trasz: serously, it may be a lot easier to beat Lua code into shape than understand the existing code. 14:55:17 The code in FreeBSD is: a) non-idiomatic, b) total trash. 14:56:51 ASau: well, okay, but please look at it from a... hm, 'release engineering' point of view perhaps. 14:56:56 I've spent a month or two working on it full-time. 14:57:07 ASau: it just won't get replaced just like that. 14:57:13 ASau: say, between 10.2 and 10.3. 14:57:33 ASau: and thus it would be nice to have a small, self-contained fix. 14:58:06 Are you working on it because of some particular problem or just because there's PR in your bug tracker? 14:58:19 your = FreeBSD. 14:58:20 ASau: i know it would be nice to replace it with a language that doesn't require one to turn one's brain inside out. 14:59:24 ASau: neither - i've just finished writing code to make it possible to replace rootfs on the fly, and logical next step is to make sure mounting root from memory disk loaded by loader(8) work correctly. 15:00:33 ASau: so, yeah, it can be said it's a longer term stuff, a mechanism waiting for users to... well, use, but i'm not sure it's long-term enough it can wait for replacing forth code with lua. 15:00:36 I worked on something similar and I've decided to do that in Forth itself rather that configuration language. 15:01:11 ASau: but the only thing i need from forth in this case is to load the file once instead of twice :-) 15:01:30 ASau: i mean, it actually does work, it's just that it wastes memory. 15:01:44 ASau: and time during bootup. 15:01:59 Have you found which word loads the file? 15:03:02 ASau: i think so. didn't test it yet, though. 15:03:18 The hacky way is to find it and redefine it with a version that checks if it has done the work already or not. 15:03:30 Checking is even easier. 15:04:33 can I just stuff the following as a debugging printf? 15:04:42 variable that-count 0 that-count ! : that ." Doing it #" that-count ? cr that ; 15:04:43 s" message" 15:05:19 ah, ." message" 15:05:26 that's the syntax? 15:07:23 okay, i think i understand what you've just written there. 15:07:27 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:08:55 and it's actually worrying. 15:08:59 anyway. 15:10:34 ASau: so there is no clever way to approach it, apart from debugging ."s and looking at the source code? 15:10:51 I'm afraid so. 15:10:52 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:12:18 ASau: a general question: one of the things i've read about lisp, scheme, and other similar languages is that a simple, elegant and 'minimalist' languages very rarely result in a simple and elegant code. 15:12:25 ASau: can the same thing be said about forth? 15:12:52 Lisp and Scheme do provide means to write simple and elegant code. 15:12:56 Forth doesn't. 15:13:12 ASau: ah. 15:13:26 The problem is in tools that provide scaling the language up. 15:14:09 ASau: as in, lack of syntactic sugar of any kind? 15:14:33 No. 15:14:43 The problem is not in the syntactic sugar. 15:14:56 The problem is the lack of means of abstraction. 15:15:52 ASau: like types? i've just learned a few hours ago that forth actually has structures :-) 15:16:15 No. 15:16:25 In CL and Scheme you have means that let you rewrite syntactic forms. 15:16:31 ah. 15:16:35 In Forth you don't have syntactic forms. 15:17:00 Even the most basic control structures are implemented with hacks. 15:21:14 still, lack of any syntactic forms means you don't really need to rewrite them, in the usual sense. 15:22:21 This also means that you have to implement everything with the low-level means. 15:22:40 to be honest, i always considered it (as much as i could without any real working knowledge) to be the its defining property, the fact that the only actually fundamental things were a ' ' and ':'. 15:24:42 okay. i'll try the printf debugging then. 15:27:24 lots of rebooting to do. thanks :-) 15:27:37 I know. 15:27:53 Unfortunately, there's no other way to debug boot loader. 15:29:11 no worries. last week i had to debug init process during a reboot. 15:29:21 so i didn't even had a way to do a crashdump. 15:29:41 ah, and it was after unmounting the devfs, so no stdout either. 15:29:42 :-) 15:29:59 --- quit: trasz (Quit: leaving) 16:13:47 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Leaving.) 16:14:41 --- quit: crc () 16:14:52 --- join: crc (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jskrnqompsnxjnss) joined #forth 16:45:13 --- join: little-night-fox (~user@14.150.215.66) joined #forth 17:02:23 --- join: gnooth (~gnooth@108-249-104-182.lightspeed.sndgca.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 17:31:13 i was unaware FiCL was still on the go 17:31:37 is there a new source control now that sourceforge seems to be permanently breaking itself? 17:31:56 there's a linux-centric fault on github, released as ficl-5.2.4 or so 17:32:06 fork, even. lol 17:33:17 No, and I doubt anyone is interested in it. 17:34:24 Basically, FICL is left to those who have a lot of time to waste on obsolete technology. 17:34:32 Just like any other Forth. 17:50:41 where about do you publish tarballs, then? or is your maintainership just "keep it up to date for personal use?" 17:54:37 I don't publish them anymore. 17:55:21 When FreeBSD kicks Forth out of boolt loader, the only remaining active use of Forth will end. 17:55:56 Everything that remains is going to be really marginal. 18:03:23 --- nick: little-night-fox -> xyh 18:04:52 ASau: you will take back every such words you said, after a couple of months when I finish my design of the type system. 18:06:38 ASau: what leads you to believe that FreeBSD will eliminate forth? you ought to publish them regardless. if, as you say, you are set in your thinking that Forth is dead and no one cares about it anymore, then you are doing something good - you are taking an almighty swipe at the hegemonic culture of 'commercial use or it's worthless'; if you are wrong, you are helping Forth 18:07:05 IRIXuser: they have announced the plan already. 18:07:11 Good morning. 18:07:56 and you, hope it's a fun day. could you link to the announcement if possible please? 18:08:23 Check mailing lists. 18:16:58 --- quit: bluekelp (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:25:27 hmm, last year they drafted a student to make it use lua instead 18:25:56 there's actually an interesting paper about how lua allows you to bootstrap a forth in 40 lines of code (and that's 40 lines without trickery like a 100-word line) 18:31:41 --- quit: nighty^_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 18:45:16 --- quit: xyh (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:24:16 --- join: xyh (~user@14.150.215.66) joined #forth 20:25:06 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-85-106.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:26:06 --- nick: xyh -> little-night-fox 20:31:13 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 20:40:06 --- nick: little-night-fox -> xyh 20:46:16 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 20:52:07 --- quit: gnooth (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 21:06:27 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:20:17 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-109.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 21:20:17 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:20:38 --- quit: xyh (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:10:30 --- join: xyh (~user@14.150.215.66) joined #forth 22:12:34 --- quit: xyh (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:16:10 --- join: xyh (~user@14.150.215.66) joined #forth 22:53:16 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.07.25