00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.07.01 00:04:51 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:05:22 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 00:06:13 + evertne jons but no one tawks ;[ 00:08:47 everyone joins, no one tawks. ;[ 00:09:06 i need a conferonce here 00:19:54 What you working on Quiznos ? 00:21:44 hi; 00:22:06 porting the fig model to linux x86 elf x86 00:23:06 i got the itc conept down for normal elf binaries 00:23:43 32 bit or 64? 00:24:19 32 00:31:14 so that, like normal elf binaries, code is separate from data per cpu requirements 00:32:45 and iu'm trying to trim the original fig src code of extraneous code and data to make minimal required to exec 00:50:24 fter i get it working i want to add lispy features. 00:50:52 i've also speated word's name[] from the heder to that nfa is now a true pointer. 00:51:02 gotten rid of traaverse 00:51:24 maroised the source file for fasm 00:52:01 hidden the db's in macros for nme/lfa, colons vars consts 00:52:14 oh and i've shorted names too. 00:52:31 it's FIGoshly Forthy. 00:53:39 and i have idears for more type lexicons, and a kind of overloading using figish branches. 00:53:51 with more types 00:54:06 and a new separate flags field, FFA 00:55:31 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 00:59:50 gabriel_laddel: her and in Forth? woot 01:00:07 there 01:00:14 Quiznos: there where? 01:00:28 here 01:00:46 Quiznos: erm. 01:01:05 could you please rephrase your question? 01:01:28 woot; Forth here there @ ! 1 >> ; 01:01:41 lol 01:01:51 I don't speak forth 01:01:51 ;] 01:01:58 COMMIEE!! 01:02:00 I am just aware of the chip 01:02:01 :) 01:02:09 it's a language first 01:02:17 sure. 01:02:24 dont kowtow ;] 01:02:34 it's close enough to lisp that I've not bothered learning it 01:02:50 they are inversals 01:03:03 duals? 01:03:19 no; ng pos infinities 01:03:21 neg 01:03:27 inversals 01:03:47 I don't grok that, but I'll take your word for it. 01:03:50 extremems of the one lang sprectrum 01:04:06 ooo a grokster knows!!! 01:04:15 welcome fellow grokee 01:04:29 got any blattees? 01:04:52 Quiznos: not that kind of grok. 01:04:58 what kind? 01:05:25 one sec, finding the exact definition via steve yegge 01:05:31 forth and lisp are polar opposites 01:05:34 Quiznos: what is a blattee anyway? 01:05:42 Quiznos: oh I wouldn't say that. 01:06:00 skin resuidue from hard rubbing of callouses. 01:06:22 a young man at MIT during the pdp and tmrc heyday produced them copiously 01:06:24 lol 01:06:31 heh 01:06:51 I can't find the exact definition, but to "grok" something means make it one with your being. 01:06:57 read steven levy's book /hackers/ about beginning of microcomputer revolution at MIT 01:07:13 read a jargon file for grok 01:07:42 [common; from the novel Stranger in a Strange Land, by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally âto drinkâ and metaphorically âto be one withâ] The emphatic form is grok in fullness. 01:07:45 oh, duh 01:07:52 Quiznos: so why do you think lisp and forth are polar opposites? 01:08:24 forth is the ultimate low level language; lisp the ultimate high level language. 01:08:41 both are for DSL creation 01:09:05 hrm. 01:09:20 I'll have to buy a greenarrays chip and try hacking it 01:09:42 "the ultimate low level language" is quite a sell 01:09:43 to grok is to understand something so completely that it changes your mindset and who you are as a person. 01:09:49 oj; and port pr create your own forth too 01:09:54 right 01:10:11 more generally, to know a subject well 01:10:18 or a word even 01:10:39 gabriel_laddel, it's so low you don't need an OS and it can be the instruction set of your cpu. :) hard to get much lower. but it's concatanative architecture make it also the easiest language to bootstrap new high level languages from at the same time. 01:10:45 s/peron/thinker/ 01:11:10 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 01:11:15 too jedi is forth 01:11:26 punning too 01:11:49 main different in consideration between forth & lisp is that forth is a zero-operand or point free language. it turns out that managing those parameters in lisp which no syntax is often more difficult than just keeping the stack structure in your head. 01:12:12 interesting 01:12:25 i find them both eminently sexy 01:12:35 in a very compatible way 01:12:51 tbh, I don't actually care, as long as I've not got to debug stuff like a hostname that changes on me every few seconds 01:12:56 which is what I should be fixing right now 01:13:01 they are cool considering how powerful they are yet so old. there's definitely some first principles stuff going on here that is fundamental to computing. 01:13:10 well, gotta get the juices flowin first 01:13:50 for me, adding lispiness to forth means manipulating the CFAs 01:13:55 that's the head of a list 01:14:23 car? 01:14:24 but it's more of vector manipulation; at this point i see APL too 01:14:26 ya 01:14:47 I gave APL (J) a try. It isn't clear why I'd ever want to use it. 01:14:51 and each word becomes a discrete vector list 01:14:53 I can just add those operations to SBCL 01:15:15 forth word or computer word? 01:15:25 but in forth, adding words (subr names) can look very natural 01:15:33 more so than even in its source environment 01:15:38 forth 01:15:45 hrm. for me what matters is power. 01:15:47 colon-list word 01:15:52 gotcha 01:15:54 which apl doesn't have 01:16:00 it's all abstraction 01:16:05 rho 01:16:15 even if it easier to meta-program than ALGOL, it is still less so than forth, lisp 01:16:16 Am probably gonna build a forth-ish environment on top of the extremely minimalistic BareMetal OS which is 64-bit pure flat model ASM. Then build my forth-ish stack based cpu on an fpga (which won't be 64 bit). 01:16:16 very natural to use greek words, which are a apl staple 01:16:18 hence, lisp 01:16:41 neat 01:16:58 so are there any neat GUI programs for forth? 01:17:02 with both Ls, there are no limits 01:17:08 e.g., CLIM is awesome. 01:17:13 just you and the language of words. 01:17:21 Well, sure. 01:17:33 But someone could have built one. 01:17:46 there ar gui forths, ya 01:18:05 ah, not a GUI forth, but a forth GUI 01:18:07 frth has been porte to every hw possible. 01:18:14 it's a rite of passage 01:18:18 sure, you can implement lisp anywhere too 01:18:22 and ALGOL etc 01:18:29 but not as easily 01:18:30 There is an immersive forth environment in Minecraft that you assemble the computer out of blocks! :P 01:18:50 ah, what I'm looking for is a platform that allows me to ship working software to clients today 01:18:53 which CL has 01:19:11 whatever is approrpiate for your need 01:19:16 the tao 01:19:26 right tool for the job 01:19:50 a handlheld, a pen, an led or lcd 01:20:06 gabriel_laddel, what's your target environment for your clients? 01:20:09 even a jvm 01:20:29 proteusguy: an expressive GUI that I can "pop the hood on" 01:20:43 proteusguy: I need to do 2D/3D graphics, a numeric tower 01:20:58 proteusguy: CLIM works so far, but is a little buggy 01:21:01 i'm building my forth for the linux kernel. 01:21:03 gabriel_laddel, what hardware? 01:21:10 proteusguy: ? 01:21:15 when i get it running, then i'll port concepts and code from packages 01:21:20 proteusguy: depends on the job I suppose? 01:21:32 proteusguy: Oh, also I need maxima, the CAS 01:21:42 gabriel_laddel, a regular PC or something embedded? 01:21:43 proteusguy: which sort of locks me into SBCL for the next few years 01:21:48 proteusguy: oh, regular PC 01:21:52 proteusguy: linux 01:22:17 gabriel_laddel, you wanna make the graphic primitives or use something like opengl? 01:22:46 proteusguy: after using OpenGL it is clear that the only way out is to do it myself, or by having others do it under my direction. 01:22:53 preferably the latter 01:23:06 if its in the cpu, you can wrap it in forth code for realtime runtime operataions and use 01:23:25 gabriel_laddel, if your tech stack includes maxima then you probably should stick with lisp, right? :P 01:23:30 well yeah 01:23:34 that includes the mmx sse ttl asap stuff too ;) 01:23:36 I was looking at using the greenarrays chip for doing secure computations... 01:23:42 but I've just not gotten around to it. 01:23:52 nor had anything secure that needed to be computed. 01:24:17 secure how? 01:24:19 i dont get it 01:24:23 Quiznos: RSA 01:24:27 airgapped 01:24:28 ah 01:24:50 gabriel_laddel, the intel chips now have some special instructions for that which seem pretty fast. 01:24:56 proteusguy: heh 01:25:00 i'm tryin to dev a proccedure for factoring myself; it's hard. 01:25:00 "secure" 01:25:04 you can't trust intel 01:25:37 proteusguy: you've seen the "linux intel blackbox rng" thread? 01:25:51 gabriel_laddel, if you're open for other languages you should check into the ipython notebook. Check out the anaconda distrubution. It's very big in the scientific programming community. 01:25:53 the procedure could be used to factor a file, if i get it right. 01:25:59 proteusguy: I've seen it. 01:26:03 proteusguy: a disaster. 01:26:25 proteusguy: parsing is braindamaged 01:26:26 gabriel_laddel, unless you're making your own fpga/asic if you're using someone else's chip you're trusting their computation model. Greenarrays included. 01:26:32 sure 01:26:57 even with the FPGA's 01:26:59 gabriel_laddel, a disaster? I think thousands of suddenly 5x or 10x more productive data folk would disagree. 01:27:15 proteusguy: I suggest you try CLIM + maxima 01:27:31 proteusguy: out of the box, sucking, with bugs it is much better than Ipython could ever hope to be 01:28:04 proteusguy: the entire model of ipython is that they're going to parse in and out of all the major formats 01:28:08 and there are always bugs with t 01:28:10 *that 01:28:15 I'm tired. 01:28:25 I can't do debugging that sort of shit anymore 01:28:42 sinplify it then 01:28:57 forthify it. 01:29:04 Quiznos: working on it 01:29:05 http://gabriel-laddel.github.io/arsttep.html 01:29:05 make the words self partsing 01:29:09 ? 01:29:15 just use sexprs 01:29:20 and CLIM 01:29:21 design it to be prose. 01:29:51 not easy at all in lisp but 01:29:52 screenshots to my solution here: https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune 01:30:37 Quiznos: I don't know what you mean by "design it to be prose" 01:30:45 but I can say that you don't ever have to parse in lisp or forth 01:30:46 if a task is difficult in one language then continuing to do so is an insane act 01:30:58 gabriel_laddel, "disaster" is just a very strong word that I don't think is supportable. May not be your cup of tea but it's a dramatic leap forward and continues to improve at a rapid pace. Why don't you suppose maxima has caught on more rather than the sci-py stuff (not that it isn't a nice system)? 01:30:58 gotta change the impleementation lang 01:32:30 gabriel_laddel: make it readable text; prose; thetoric; speakable. 01:33:06 but i do think kgiven my y minimal comprehension of above, i do think you need to reevaluate your fundamentals 01:33:20 proteusguy: disaster is what I said because it is what I mean. Try reading arsttep.html or http://pastebin.com/AdTXnKT6 01:33:25 if you want my thoughts. 01:33:55 proteusguy: scipy is a dramatic leap forward from java, which is still behind the symbolics lisp machine 01:33:58 so... 01:33:59 not really 01:34:21 iow, regardless of implementation lang, if tyou cant see the threads of connection in a project, then it hasnt jelled in mind yet. 01:35:09 to quote one malcontent " Symbolics Genera remains the gold standard of programming systems. Though largely forgotten, it can never be un-created. My standard of comparison for any technology will always be everything previously achieved by mankind, rather than what is available on the market today." -- http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 01:35:43 and all your mental kerfuffles might just be articial bars preventing you from seeing successul completion 01:35:53 Quiznos: Yeah, except no. 01:36:09 good quot 01:36:18 ok; slain the duality? 01:36:21 Quiznos: that every algol system grows into an unmaintainable monstrosity isn't debatable 01:36:27 Quiznos: slain the duality? 01:36:32 splain 01:36:36 esplain 01:36:39 explain>? 01:36:43 as in Lucy you got... 01:36:53 Quiznos: what languages do you speak? 01:36:58 what is your native language? 01:36:59 lol 01:37:08 long island english lol 01:37:14 i can tawk too 01:37:18 lol 01:37:23 omfg 01:37:29 I need to fix this bug. 01:37:30 I= 01:37:37 *I'll be around for the next few years 01:37:40 anyway 01:37:49 if you read all the above links, let me know 01:38:00 else I'll just end up repeating what myself and others have already covered 01:38:06 my points were that if you're dealing with mental blocks preventing movement and success, then change something. 01:38:33 as for quot above; i invoke the great Godel 01:38:35 Quiznos: I was "successful" 01:38:38 it sucked 01:38:45 in his refutation of princip mathe. 01:38:58 ok then chnge someth to fix it 01:39:03 I am 01:39:06 hence the bugfixing 01:39:07 ok 01:39:20 no not the bugs; the implem 01:39:30 ? 01:39:34 try reading the links 01:39:50 I asssure there is a *very* logical by which I'm making the decisions I'm making 01:40:04 you asked what my native tongue is; i say english; but it's also forth asm c. in that order. 01:40:21 i think in forth, i can read/write asm, and i muddle in c. 01:40:35 and then there is the tao of it all; righ tool for job. 01:40:42 and of course, flexibility. 01:41:14 is the suck factor atually bc of bugs or logic in omplementation? 01:41:53 idiots everywhere 01:42:02 seriously, try reading the OpenGL spec sometime 01:42:03 undesputed. 01:42:09 our medical tech depends on it 01:42:15 everyone involved should be fired 01:42:16 devs piss me off too 01:42:20 fucking insane 01:42:26 I have to *drive* places 01:42:27 no bdout 01:42:46 do you get my point above? 01:42:52 Quiznos: nope. 01:43:09 then you arent reading. it's quite about meta-thinking. 01:43:22 ? 01:43:36 ok; you arent ready to go there. 01:43:40 good luck. 01:43:42 hrm 01:43:56 go where? 01:44:07 in what string of english text did you make your point? 01:44:13 I see nothing useful 01:44:20 not in the sense of "things I can use" 01:44:26 where ever your thinking takes you. 01:44:31 but in the sense of "anything I could address as a point" 01:45:33 perhaps my writing is too deep. 01:45:43 or not detailed enough? 01:45:49 or too meta 01:46:22 thinking about thinking is not an easy thing. 01:46:26 ? 01:46:29 sure it is 01:46:36 not at a deep level. 01:46:40 it is introspective. 01:46:54 it is meta. 01:47:00 it is philosphy. 01:47:05 annnd..? 01:47:21 the manipul;ation of mental objects. 01:47:31 Annnnnnnddd? 01:47:40 you arent doing it. 01:48:09 you know this how? 01:48:18 form what youve written above. 01:48:30 yeah, but what specifically? 01:48:44 the totality of what youve written. nothing else. 01:49:03 Lol 01:49:27 i gave adive but you couldnt absorb it. 01:49:32 clearly 01:49:37 ok then. 01:50:07 the thing about "threads of connection in a project" is fine and dandy if you want to be a cog 01:50:12 but it doesn't work for building organizations 01:50:19 and your point of view reduces to africa 01:50:28 only bc the cog are extrememly dynamic. 01:50:34 cogs 01:50:58 and people management is not at all easy 01:51:04 it is quite difficult 01:51:10 i get it. 01:51:47 but you wernt discusin people above, you were ducsing your mental process when dealing with your project. 01:51:48 also, being a cog only works so long as there are leaders worth following 01:51:58 sure 01:52:06 and you pointed out... what? 01:52:20 that I can't see the "threads of connection"? 01:52:21 be more flexible 01:52:21 I can 01:52:24 no 01:52:32 being inflexiable is the heart of engineering 01:52:40 i disagree 01:52:51 stating that "things will work like so" and then being flexible about how you get there. 01:52:55 engineering 01:53:45 no; that's a surface sttement; i'm writing about the deep things of thinking to imagine a new thing. 01:53:53 that requires flexibility. 01:53:58 ah 01:54:00 yeah 01:54:03 ok 01:54:12 I certainly need more study 01:54:25 every one doe;s 01:54:29 education never ends. 01:55:34 having architectural drivers - explicit constraints - is the heart of engineering. figuring out what exactly those are is the first challenge. then you have to be flexible about everything else. 01:55:51 ^ 01:55:55 well consider this 01:56:43 imagine introducing a 2000 year old friend to modern life; he sees moving machines with no operator and buildigs that touch the sky 01:56:52 and he asks how did you make that? 01:57:07 you say, with light, sound, energy. magnets, etc. 01:57:17 you broke his mind. 01:57:28 depends on the friend 01:57:36 some genetic lines, sure 01:57:40 bc he sees, hears, and touches everything and cant imagine how it was put toether. 01:57:41 others - would do fine 01:58:10 i dont mean he that he is invapble, but just unable to imagine. 01:58:22 there can be no limits on imagination. 01:58:32 all bars are artificial bc of a lack of information. 01:58:38 larn moar! 01:58:51 we cut metal with light!!! 01:58:58 an sound too 01:59:15 who could imagine that 2k years ago? 01:59:32 or even 200 years ago? 02:00:36 we use sound to look into the ground. 02:07:57 oh well 02:10:54 --- quit: FireFly (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:40:50 --- join: FireFly (~firefly@firefly.xen.prgmr.com) joined #forth 02:41:28 --- quit: FireFly (Changing host) 02:41:28 --- join: FireFly (~firefly@oftn/member/FireFly) joined #forth 03:11:37 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-143-0.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 07:03:54 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Remote host closed the connection) 08:07:24 --- quit: clog (^C) 08:07:24 --- log: stopped forth/15.07.01 08:07:37 --- log: started forth/15.07.01 08:07:37 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 08:07:37 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | http://forthworks.com/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com' 08:07:37 --- topic: set by crc!sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjufmiaqljwdybvp on [Wed Mar 18 14:28:55 2015] 08:07:37 --- names: list (clog bjorkintosh crc TodPunk true-grue FireFly nighty^ JohnMarkM +proteusguy Quozl` darkf irsol kulp Quiznos carc Keshl DKordic joneshf-laptop MrMobius phadthai newcup tangentstorm pointfree bishopj` enthos Duality yunfan_ b4283 ggherdov` yiyus malyn djinni Vendan defanor scoofy nisstyre Backer diginet ionthas_ nighty^_ C-Keen pepijndevos dzho bluekelp) 08:09:57 --- join: dys (~andreas@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:f66d:4ff:fec1:4421) joined #forth 08:10:19 --- nick: dys -> Guest38439 08:19:55 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 08:57:49 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 09:55:41 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 09:56:57 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-222.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 09:56:57 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 10:10:59 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@32.127.113.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 10:18:22 --- quit: irsol (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 10:36:40 --- join: irsol (~irsol@unaffiliated/contempt) joined #forth 10:41:57 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11:11:47 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@32.127.113.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 11:19:31 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 11:32:55 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@32.127.113.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 12:11:20 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 12:24:20 --- join: Mat4 (~claude@ip18863485.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 12:24:22 hello 12:28:04 hey Mat4 12:28:29 hi bluekelp 12:39:16 what's new ? 12:39:29 --- nick: Mat4 -> Mat4-coding 12:55:24 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 13:42:37 not much. new job keeping me super busy. no chance to update/fix the forth port 13:43:12 was thinking about trying a binary/output diff to find the bug. since, in theory, the opcodes output should be almost identical since it's just an asm dialect port 13:43:21 you? 13:43:40 huh> 13:43:58 what bug? 13:49:42 there's a bug related to (i think) word lookup; i "ported" jonesforth from att/gcc syntax to intel/nasm for a project but it wasn't quite working right last i played with it 13:50:22 iirc FIND wasn't always matching words input. might also be a bug with input handling/buffers 13:51:41 --- join: ASau (~user@176.0.2.217) joined #forth 13:51:42 kool; why not try fasm instead? 13:51:58 easier to manage; tasm-like without the headache 13:52:11 i'm porting a fig model to linux x86wiht fasm 13:53:32 right now i'm trimming unnecsa words, but i think i'm gonna start over 13:53:58 using a either a fig1.0 or 1.1 src file. 13:54:36 if you want, i can give you a couple of upgrades that are esay to do and simplify 14:20:36 bluekelp: I'm working on a colorforth variant at moment 14:22:12 he's afk 14:24:09 probably he reads the log 14:24:17 k 14:24:27 are you idling? 14:33:36 what ing ? 14:34:08 idle, lurker, stalker? 14:36:03 I don't understand what you mean, sorry 14:36:39 W.O.U.L.D..Y.O.U.L.I.K.E..T.O..D/.I/S/C/U/S//F/O/R/T/H? 14:36:41 :) 14:37:02 pseudo-utf16 14:39:54 I would like to discuss ideas to develop Forth further 14:40:10 woot 14:40:12 go! 14:46:04 for my own environment, I implement some quite uncommon ideas for example 14:46:18 ok 14:46:42 for mine, i pulled the word's name out of the structure and make NFA a true pointer 14:46:57 then i got rid of traverse 14:47:15 and i'm thinking of makeing the flags FFA 14:47:27 a cell-int 14:47:40 word's name is counted asciiz now 14:49:05 and code is in .code and data in .data; and ffor the ITC model, headers for primitives are Cish (*fp)() 14:49:10 just like C. 14:49:17 I replaced all stack words though stack tags. So instead of ': multi dup * ;' (simple example) the first stack element is addressed by a type tag: 14:49:45 so you can do what? 14:49:50 'n1 n1 * :multi' 14:50:06 buh 14:50:13 where n means natural number and 1 the first stack position 14:50:20 k 14:50:47 n1[0..100] is a natural number in valid range 0 to 100 14:50:49 so the tag is for runtime search and dispaatch? 14:51:10 oh, you wrote a highlevel trranslator or what? 14:51:20 like joy 14:52:19 it's a functional colorforth dialect 14:52:27 k 14:52:45 i'll get to funcitonal eventually 14:53:29 i think there is much that cn be done with CFA to extend forht simply 14:54:00 agree 14:54:41 like adding the fundamentals of lipsiness. 14:54:46 lispi 14:55:02 and adding a lisp (cond) 14:55:36 and a pascal like-ish inner functions 14:58:07 the main difference between my approach an the traditional Forth way is that each declaration is always compiled. 14:58:23