00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.06.01 00:34:01 --- log: started forth/15.06.01 00:34:01 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 00:34:01 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | http://forthworks.com/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com' 00:34:01 --- topic: set by crc!sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gjufmiaqljwdybvp on [Wed Mar 18 14:28:55 2015] 00:34:01 --- names: list (clog MrMobius darkf atommann karswell +proteusguy impomatic Keshl joneshf-laptop protist bjorkintosh TodPunk djinni nighty^_ scoofy diginet tangentstorm irsol phadthai dzho ionthas_ Vendan pepijndevos ggherdov` kulp carc nisstyre +bluekelp newcup Quozl`_ yiyus +KipIngram xpoqp enthos FireFly +crc yunfan defanor malyn) 00:54:40 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~kvirc@93-43-74-105.ip90.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 01:10:42 --- join: standoo (~Thunderbi@121-99-222-126.bng1.nct.orcon.net.nz) joined #forth 01:10:49 hello 01:11:04 what is a good resource for a beginner to learn forth? 02:16:29 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 03:19:00 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@dyn-62-56-76-198.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 03:42:34 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-150-146.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 03:52:01 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 04:03:06 --- quit: standoo (Quit: standoo) 04:07:18 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 04:31:14 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 04:55:00 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@31.185.153.201) joined #forth 07:26:29 --- quit: karswell (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 07:27:40 --- join: karswell (~user@80.229.110.20) joined #forth 07:37:08 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 07:37:50 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@31.185.153.201) joined #forth 07:38:21 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 07:44:10 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-86-42.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:46:22 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-72-50-85-187.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:46:46 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 07:48:51 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 08:33:43 --- join: backer (~backer@banjo.employees.org) joined #forth 10:05:21 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 10:55:13 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:16:05 --- join: ASau (~user@176.0.110.220) joined #forth 11:16:21 --- join: bedah (~bedah@dyndsl-095-033-217-171.ewe-ip-backbone.de) joined #forth 11:31:47 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-106.prtc.net) joined #forth 11:53:56 --- join: Mat4 (~quassel@ip5b40671a.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 11:54:00 hi all 12:09:06 --- quit: Zarutian (Remote host closed the connection) 12:17:34 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 12:19:52 hallo 12:19:56 Mat4! 12:20:05 hello ErhardtMundt 12:40:21 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 12:40:48 Bah.. I'm getting peeved 12:41:47 hi PoppaVic 12:42:07 what means peeved ? 12:42:37 irked, irate, irritated: peeved 12:42:45 "pissed-the-hell-off" 12:42:50 ah thanks 12:43:07 "You've never seen me very upset" :P 12:43:27 damn you, I nearly spit out a mouthful of gin ;-) 12:43:58 :D 12:44:11 such a waste! 12:44:31 I've got a fistful of home-maintenance chores bugging me, but searching google, using the groups (uselessnet) and seeing what unfolds under "forth" is just fucking sad 12:44:50 ErhardtMundt: yeah, my thought as well 12:45:05 I think you mean comp.lang.forth ? 12:45:10 yep 12:45:25 I've been fighting Google in the meanwhile 12:45:29 it won, of course. 12:45:47 I'e been looking for over 2 years now, watching developments, seeing where "tethered forth" leads - and I just want to slap the shit out of people 12:46:08 I already knew ANS forth was an abomination - but it's worse 12:47:15 ErhardtMundt: google always wins.. Even when they fail 12 ways a day - they fucking label it "new and improved" and shoe it down yer throat. 12:47:26 shoe/shove 12:47:54 although, sure - sometimes they need a shoehorn: they STILL make it happen 12:49:23 --- join: johnmark_ (~johnmark@24.1.223.32) joined #forth 12:49:36 They never did break forth down to a solid number of groups and words properly, and the concept of 'tethering' is still borked.. Hell, if you read the crap you mostly see justifications for $500 packages 12:50:01 --- nick: johnmark_ -> JohnMarkM 12:50:16 I think it is not fruitful to get angy over deficits of ANS Forth. Better is to overcome? it 12:50:31 not going to happen 12:50:56 ANyone that claims you can overpower a standard is pretty well deluded. 12:52:07 At best you can tag-team up and formulate a defacto standard that parallels an abomination, causing tons of bad vibes and juju - and likely ending right in the same bitbucket. 12:52:30 yes, however that's a problem for programmers which let themself be limited by standards 12:52:42 * PoppaVic sighs 12:53:31 Mat4: if yer here, yer either a programmer or wannabe. So that just says "it's a problem for everyone all the time everywhere" 12:53:59 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 12:54:24 in fact, I was amused that the uselessnet channel now seems to value "test suites" more than documentation, now... 12:58:00 personally I just ignore any ANS compatible Forth environments. If I use Forth for a project I either write my own or use one of the non ANS oriented Forths out there 12:58:23 The fun part is: there is almost certainly a minimal wordset - several levels of them - for forths.. Colorforths don't count, lisp doesn't count, python and tcl don't count.. And folks seem to either wear blinders, point at Standards, or go solve it somewhere useful 13:04:58 I think a useful standard need to bring advantages against older practices. One probelm I have with these ANS standard is that I can't see any beside word size independence 13:05:04 ^problem 13:12:14 in addition: There exist now some useful abstractions which I would love to see as Forth standard like quotations, storage classes, pattern matching, efficient locals, structures, assertions ... 13:13:07 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 13:14:33 As soon as someome mentions classes, patterns - and assertions - I know they are in the wrong place. 13:14:51 *lol* 13:15:30 I think this features have there usage 13:15:50 There are at least a half-dozen variations on forth with such crap elsewhere. 13:15:51 brb 13:16:08 --- nick: Mat4 -> Mat4-coding 13:16:31 I don't need to ADD FEATURES.. That is a local or modulare issue. I spoke of the basics. 13:17:59 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 13:22:42 I wrote an implementation of algebraic data types and pattern matching in Forth, only about 15 LoC 13:41:22 I know that's all doable 13:43:14 yep - and it never gets done 13:48:17 I wanted to point out that some of these features can lead to a better factored design (have implications to the 'basics') 13:49:24 the class concept of retro is one example for this 13:50:00 (which was initial developed for Hel Forth by Helmar Wodtke) 13:50:24 --- quit: GeDaMo (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 13:51:45 quotations ease compilation 13:51:55 and so on 13:52:16 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 13:54:47 also one main concept of Colorforth, the relocation of compile-time processing to edit time makes sense (better performance) 13:54:56 to me 13:55:20 all this should be part of a standard in my opinion 13:55:46 however I doupt this ever happens 13:57:17 I don't see "retro" as forth. Sorry. I've heard that argument too often - from the author - while he reviled C in every way 14:02:45 I'd point out: I don't see Colorforth as 'forth' either - and I respect Moore. 14:06:50 probably. Anyhow, I do not understand why Forth as programming language should not evolve in unconventional ways 14:08:33 as long as it works 14:09:03 Here, have a daisy 14:15:15 --- quit: bedah (Quit: Ex-Chat) 14:17:03 --- join: karswell (~user@80.229.110.20) joined #forth 14:27:41 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 14:41:47 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:05:35 --- quit: backer (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:05:44 --- join: backer (~backer@banjo.employees.org) joined #forth 15:15:40 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:16:55 --- join: karswell (~user@80.229.110.20) joined #forth 15:24:17 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:24:17 --- quit: malyn (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:26:24 --- join: malyn (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 15:28:42 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com) joined #forth 15:38:01 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 16:04:12 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:06:56 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-234.prtc.net) joined #forth 16:20:23 --- quit: Mat4-coding (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 16:42:07 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:28:23 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 17:56:43 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 18:01:50 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 18:14:22 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:27:05 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 18:35:31 --- quit: crc (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:35:52 --- join: crc (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uvtflviteuipdvkb) joined #forth 18:36:18 --- quit: ggherdov` (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 18:42:59 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:44:40 --- join: ggherdov` (sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zuqevwxirgaujfjb) joined #forth 18:50:30 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 19:09:44 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 19:19:29 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 19:23:21 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:23:56 --- mode: ChanServ set +v crc 19:33:43 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:39:50 --- join: karswell (~user@80.229.110.20) joined #forth 20:19:28 --- quit: JohnMarkM (Quit: Leaving) 20:21:34 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 20:21:50 --- join: ASau (~user@176.0.110.220) joined #forth 20:26:48 --- quit: saml_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 20:30:57 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 22:24:12 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 22:37:18 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:06:36 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 23:47:37 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@85.133.140.128) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.06.01