00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.05.20 00:00:02 bluekelp I actually meant AVR, but your response holds true. 00:00:51 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-18.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 00:00:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 00:09:52 What is a good introduction to Forth compilers? 00:25:17 pepijndevos, you want to make one or use one? (I presume the former.) 00:25:30 Make one 00:25:45 what's your target environment? 00:25:59 AVR machine code 00:26:33 Someone told me that by definition a Forth is both a compiler and an interpreter, and I'd like to understand why. 00:26:46 Yep. Here's one: amforth for AVR 00:26:47 http://www.forthfreak.net/index.cgi?amforth 00:26:47 http://amforth.sourceforge.net/ 00:27:25 the forthfreak link doesn't work for me. 00:27:44 And here's a good link that talks all about the concept you're asking about: Meta Forth - all about implementations/internals 00:27:44 http://www.ultratechnology.com/meta.html 00:27:47 So I looked at that one before, and it seems to require at least 8kb sram 00:28:18 OK the forthfreak link just points to sourceforge eventually I think. 00:28:33 Ah ok. 00:28:54 Ok, reading the meta article. 00:29:00 Yeah 8k is pretty small to host an extendable interpreter/compiler... what kind of size you dealing with? 00:29:14 2k 00:29:49 But I don't need an interpreter. So I'm trying to understand why an interpreter is required to be a Forth. 00:30:00 ok so you'd only likely be able to use it as a compiled code target with very small packed instruction codes. 00:30:17 yea 00:31:13 You don't *have* to bring the interpreter along to your final target. But general forth systems just do the whole thing because it's so small already for 99.999% of apps. You're just in the .001% range but forth has solutions for that too. 00:31:17 some of my targets don't get to keep the interpreter. 00:31:35 but if it can fit, the interpreter is handy for debugging. ;-) 00:32:26 yea, I like having an interpreter, just not at a hight RAM cost. 00:33:44 Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54759.msg1751464#msg1751464 00:35:03 if i had to use less ram, i'd be hacking into the interpreter to make it so. 00:35:51 but ram is so cheap, so i've stopped caring. i'm happy with teensy 3.1 for my forth targets at the moment. 00:38:20 and for the rest of my forth work, i've got 1GB or 2GB to play with. ;-) 00:46:39 "high RAM cost" is certainly an interesting perspective. I thought I was doing pretty damn good in 1986 when I setup my own forth-ish interpreter in 32k RAM including all programs for controlling a Hero-1 robot. :) 00:47:32 Was a 6809 cpu. Really nice architecture for forth as it inherently supported 2 stacks with ease. 00:49:12 i heard one can still get 6809s. not verified. 00:49:46 Sure and there's plenty of FPGA files to create one as well. 00:50:08 availability and price of parts is always interesting. 00:54:26 well my interest today is to make a stack machine cpu directly into the fpga. I doubt I'll ever touch a 6809 again but it taught me a lot about good CPU architecture vs. "not-so-good" like the Z-80 or 6502 that was the alternative popular 8-bit CPUs of the day. 00:55:39 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 01:51:13 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-137-160.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 02:09:26 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:20:18 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 02:52:26 --- quit: cataska (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 03:08:16 --- quit: regreg (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:08:29 --- join: regreg (~regreg@85.121.48.218) joined #forth 03:15:30 --- quit: regreg (Remote host closed the connection) 03:15:48 --- join: regreg (~regreg@85.121.48.218) joined #forth 03:31:53 --- quit: regreg (Remote host closed the connection) 03:48:50 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:08:30 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 04:10:19 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:27:18 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 05:30:25 --- join: GeDaMo (~GeDaMo@dyn-62-56-76-198.dslaccess.co.uk) joined #forth 05:36:38 --- join: regreg (~regreg@85.121.48.218) joined #forth 05:46:05 --- join: cataska (uid12717@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-pbvhgricnwgnauqp) joined #forth 06:04:14 --- quit: regreg (Remote host closed the connection) 06:24:27 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:32:17 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 06:34:16 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 06:37:29 --- nick: scoofy_ -> scoofy 06:54:05 --- join: regreg (~regreg@85.121.48.218) joined #forth 07:39:49 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-137-160.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 07:52:25 --- quit: cataska (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 08:20:16 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-238-232.prtc.net) joined #forth 09:07:55 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:9:4300:438:4918:dc4f:5c59:fc03) joined #forth 09:10:58 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:11:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-24-23-168-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:33:24 --- join: bedah (~bedah@95.33.176.255) joined #forth 10:44:43 --- quit: ErhardtMundt|2 (Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium http://www.kvirc.net/) 11:09:18 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Quit: Leaving) 11:18:10 proteusguy, also check out asforth (faster than amforth, uses gas but it's not as feature complete and only GPL2'd) https://github.com/nfz/asforth 11:20:16 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-224-81.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 11:29:11 pointfree, thanx for the link. Looks interesting. pepijndevos you should take a look at this. 11:29:49 One sec, first debugging my assembly. 11:52:23 --- join: Mat4 (~quassel@ip5b407cc8.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 11:52:29 hello 11:52:43 o/ 11:59:04 Hi 12:09:23 --- nick: Mat4 -> Mat4-coding 12:17:02 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 12:33:32 hey Mat4-coding 12:33:46 hi bluekelp 12:39:23 what are you coding? 12:47:27 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Remote host closed the connection) 12:50:29 --- quit: bedah (Quit: Ex-Chat) 12:50:37 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 12:56:03 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 13:12:54 a simulator for my ISA 13:13:01 (again) 13:13:50 I decided to unify assembler, monitor (debugger) and logic simulation 13:14:04 into one single application 13:15:33 ISA? you mean a simulated ISA bus? 13:16:44 ISA like in instruction-set architecture 13:28:00 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-24-23-168-196.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:11:56 do you have a reference for it? or what does it look like 14:30:37 http://www.13rhinos.de/Berana.pdf 14:40:38 Mat4-coding, that's a cool project. I remember seeing something about it on /r/Forth but with less info. 14:42:23 I work beside on a better designed homepage so deleted the link 14:43:28 --- quit: GeDaMo (Remote host closed the connection) 14:45:27 Mat4-coding, under features you mention a dual stack architecture which is offset addressable up to 16 elements while the register set talks about two 64 element stacks. Presumably the additional depth is accessible once the items are popped up within the 16 element offset? 14:45:49 yes 14:46:04 only the first 16 stack elements are directly accesible 14:46:05 Do you commonly find that your stack has grown to over 16 elements? 14:47:21 that's easily the case using quotations (or closures) 14:48:14 I see. So no real downside not being able to immediately address them when they're out of context. 14:49:29 yes 14:49:41 You intend to implement this on an FPGA or something? 14:49:43 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:51:48 not at this stage. I have not worked with FPGA's before. Instead I have somewhat tested logic schematics (the old pen and paper approach) 14:52:07 --- join: johnmark_ (~johnmark@24.1.223.32) joined #forth 14:52:49 --- nick: johnmark_ -> JohnMarkM 14:53:09 My plan is to use this as base for an VHDL implementation 14:53:53 Sounds very cool. Building a stack based CPU is something I wanna do with the fleaFPGA board. 14:55:05 Docs says it supports fixed point math but I don't see the instructions for it? 14:56:01 are you doing something with the scaler instructions to make this happen? 14:57:33 I simply doesn't find the time yet to complete documenting the last complex instructions (that's the fixed point part) 14:59:30 Mat4-coding, have you checked out MyHDL yet? Better architected and more expressive synthisis model (IMHO) than VHDL or Verilog but generates both VHDL & Verilog output as its result. 15:02:34 yes. However to evaluate the code generator I need some more funded knowledge of VHDL (and Verilog) 15:03:08 Mat4-coding: looks interesting. thanks for the link. i'll read it tomorrow. 15:03:26 What language have you implemented your assembler/monitor/simulator in now? 15:03:40 I use retro 15:04:19 hmm that's cool. That something you publishing source for? 15:04:40 if it finished you can found it on my Git repro 15:05:18 take a look at www.13rhinos.de/berana-en.html 15:05:53 I update the side on first june 15:06:20 at current I'm on holiday 15:07:36 Mat4-coding, that's tbe best time to get this kinda stuff done! ;-) 15:08:46 it's a more relaxing work ;) 15:10:03 Looks like a cool project. I'll be watching out for it! Good luck! 15:12:56 thanks 15:17:33 yep, looks like interesting stuff 15:22:27 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 15:25:22 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-239-168.prtc.net) joined #forth 15:30:05 ciao 15:30:10 --- quit: Mat4-coding (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 15:37:36 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:47:24 --- join: impomatic (~impomatic@31.185.153.201) joined #forth 15:54:15 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 16:01:34 --- join: cataska (uid12717@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dicrczogucbuggxf) joined #forth 16:36:17 --- join: vsg1990 (~vsg1990@cpe-67-241-148-119.buffalo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 17:06:15 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-237-232.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:26:34 --- quit: vsg1990 (Quit: Leaving) 17:39:42 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 17:40:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Client Quit) 18:04:16 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:12:26 --- quit: cataska (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity) 18:25:02 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 18:48:24 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 19:08:40 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 19:27:22 --- join: xyh (~user@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 19:35:46 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 20:11:16 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-238-40.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:29:37 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 20:31:11 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@2601:9:4300:438:2acf:e9ff:fe5d:71c5) joined #forth 20:43:53 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-230-126.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 20:43:53 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 20:59:23 --- quit: JohnMarkM (Quit: Leaving) 21:18:19 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:08:13 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 23:18:49 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@49.230.187.40) joined #forth 23:19:00 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 23:22:51 --- join: darkf_ (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 23:25:52 --- quit: darkf (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 23:28:16 --- quit: atommann (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 23:30:53 --- nick: darkf_ -> darkf 23:43:32 --- quit: TodPunk (*.net *.split) 23:44:11 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 23:50:03 --- join: darkf_ (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 23:53:22 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-155-159.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:53:28 --- quit: darkf (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:57:36 --- join: atommann (~atommann@58.251.2.94) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.05.20