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01:39:08 <abcq2> Can anyone here tell me why I'm getting an "unstructured" error? http://pastebin.com/74DcXn9V
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02:09:16 <impomatic> abcq2: it's probably the two WHILEs causing the problem
02:09:35 <abcq2> ah, okay
02:09:53 <abcq2> I assumed it would work like a break statement, given its placement
02:10:04 <abcq2> Is tehre a better way to structure it?
02:11:31 <impomatic> Make it a single test, check for Y, check for N, then use OR.
02:13:08 <abcq2> Okay, cheers!
02:14:55 <impomatic> Something like this:
02:15:00 <impomatic> : askyn
02:15:02 <impomatic> 	begin
02:15:03 <impomatic> 		key toupper dup dup
02:15:05 <impomatic> 		[CHAR] Y = swap
02:15:06 <impomatic> 		[CHAR] N = or
02:15:08 <impomatic>                 invert while
02:15:09 <impomatic> 		." Please press Y or N" cr
02:15:11 <impomatic> 	repeat
02:15:12 <impomatic> ;
02:15:33 <impomatic> Note: that's untested.
02:29:28 <abcq2> impomatic: that works perfectly! (with an over added to retain the value from the ='Y') Thanks!
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05:55:13 <agumonkey2> hello there
05:55:48 <agumonkey2> some days you wake up and you think, could one fits a Forth in the 512b of a MBR ?
05:59:39 <agumonkey2> in assembly; possibly with FAT/EXT/NTFS drivers, so it could actually be useful ~_~;
06:00:59 <Keshl> Do what I do -- Partition with 4 megs of free space at the end of the disc that's just wholly unallocated. oωo.
06:01:11 <Keshl> Have the MBR point there, continue. -ω-.
06:01:29 <Keshl> (Don't do this on SSD's, obviously.)
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06:04:44 <agumonkey2> and the MBR will just fetch code from that partition ?
06:06:52 <agumonkey2> Well, that's what you said just after.. (slow self)
06:07:21 <agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't be as universal.
06:07:48 <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?
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06:17:55 <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.
06:17:59 <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:18:24 <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the MBR. oωo.
06:19:38 <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.
06:22:47 <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:23:08 <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could fit in 512b of asm.
06:24:27 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't
06:24:27 <agumonkey2> 	     be as universal.
06:24:27 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?  [15:06]
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06:24:40 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and
06:24:44 <agumonkey2> 	stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.  [15:16]
06:24:47 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:24:50 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a
06:24:53 <agumonkey2> 	techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the
06:24:56 <agumonkey2> 	MBR. oωo.
06:24:57 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works
06:25:01 <agumonkey2> 	with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.  [15:18]
06:25:03 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:25:06 <agumonkey2> 								        [15:21]
06:25:09 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could
06:25:14 <agumonkey2> 	     fit in 512b of asm.
06:25:17 <agumonkey2> ERC> <agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't
06:25:20 <agumonkey2> 	     be as universal.
06:25:20 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?  [15:06]
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06:25:36 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and
06:25:40 <agumonkey2> 	stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.  [15:16]
06:25:44 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:25:47 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a
06:25:50 <agumonkey2> 	techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the
06:25:51 <agumonkey2> 	MBR. oωo.
06:25:54 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works
06:25:57 <agumonkey2> 	with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.  [15:18]
06:26:00 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:26:03 <agumonkey2> 								        [15:21]
06:26:06 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could
06:26:10 <agumonkey2> 	     fit in 512b of asm.
06:26:14 <agumonkey2> ERC> <agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't
06:26:15 <dzho> agumonkey2: please don't flood the channel
06:26:17 <agumonkey2> 	     be as universal.
06:26:20 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?  [15:06]
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06:26:35 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and
06:26:38 <agumonkey2> 	stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.  [15:16]
06:26:41 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:26:44 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a
06:26:47 <agumonkey2> 	techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the
06:26:50 <agumonkey2> 	MBR. oωo.
06:26:50 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works
06:26:54 <agumonkey2> 	with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.  [15:18]
06:26:57 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:27:00 <agumonkey2> 								        [15:21]
06:27:03 <Keshl> oωo; I think he made an oops.
06:27:03 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could
06:27:06 <agumonkey2> 	     fit in 512b of asm.
06:27:10 <agumonkey2> ERC> kkkra<agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't
06:27:14 <agumonkey2> 	     be as universal.
06:27:17 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?  [15:06]
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06:27:30 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and
06:27:33 <agumonkey2> 	stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.  [15:16]
06:27:36 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:27:40 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a
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06:27:44 <agumonkey2> 	techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the
06:27:47 <agumonkey2> 	MBR. oωo.
06:27:50 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works
06:27:51 <agumonkey2> 	with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.  [15:18]
06:27:54 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:27:57 <agumonkey2> 								        [15:21]
06:28:00 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could
06:28:03 <agumonkey2> 	     fit in 512b of asm.
06:28:06 <agumonkey2> ERC> <agumonkey2> I don't get why this would be bad on SSD though. Also it wouldn't
06:28:10 <agumonkey2> 	     be as universal.
06:28:14 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> So you do use a Forth bootloader or a whole OS ?  [15:06]
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06:28:19 <dzho> ugh
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06:28:27 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> SSD's use uinpartitioned space to store garbage collection data and
06:28:30 <agumonkey2> 	stuff, so the code there'd get overwritten randomly. oωo.  [15:16]
06:28:33 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> *unpartitioned
06:28:36 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> I don't use a FOrth-style bootloader, but I know GRUB uses a
06:28:38 <Keshl> Hopefully he ain't in an infinite loop. xwx
06:28:40 <agumonkey2> 	techneique similar to this since it doesn't actually fit in the
06:28:44 <agumonkey2> 	MBR. oωo.
06:28:47 <agumonkey2> <Keshl> Actually, if all you're looking for is that, just use Grub. It works
06:28:50 <agumonkey2> 	with all three filesystems you mentioned, oωo.  [15:18]
06:28:51 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> True, they require a dummy partition to store most of the code.
06:28:54 <agumonkey2> 								        [15:21]
06:28:57 <agumonkey2> <agumonkey2> No I was just thinking about booting from Forth and if it could
06:29:00 <agumonkey2> 	     fit in 512b of asm.
06:29:03 <agumonkey2> ERC> 
06:29:10 <agumonkey2> OMG, I'm so sorry...
06:29:14 <agumonkey2> such paste spam
06:29:17 <agumonkey2> I wanted to link this http://www.reddit.com/r/Forth/comments/ay627/ask_rforth_whats_the_smallest_implementation_of/c0l1b1z
06:29:25 <Keshl> It's okay, I've done it too.. XD
06:29:27 <agumonkey2> dzho: my sincere apologies
06:29:30 <agumonkey2> Author, kragen, mentions a 399b forth source
06:29:32 <dzho> agumonkey2: :-)
06:29:36 <dzho> it happens
06:29:51 <dzho> I'm just glad it wasn't a loop, like Keshl said.
06:29:53 <agumonkey2> At least it was metacircular <o/
06:29:58 <dzho> quite.
06:29:59 <Keshl> You got lucky. Yours was about Forth. Mine, er, wasn't. <ω<'
06:30:00 <agumonkey2> I'm using emacs Erc, it's convenient and powerful, sometimes too powerful.
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06:30:23 <agumonkey2> Keshl: something embarassing, like COBOL ?
06:30:35 <dzho> irssi will warn you.  at least, I think it's irssi that's doing that.
06:30:39 <Keshl> ... Oh thank goodness it wasn't that. o_o
06:30:39 * impomatic eyes agumonkey2 suspiciously
06:31:03 <Keshl> Emberassing, yes. And meant to be private. ...And on another server. x.x
06:31:23 <agumonkey2> Keshl: self inflicted leakage is the best flavour
06:31:34 <Keshl> But, yeah. Languages that aren't Forth. More emberassing. Thank you for putting that in the right light. o_o
06:31:42 <agumonkey2> Lucky for you #forth logs aren't public. right, right?
06:32:10 <Keshl> (And seriously, thank you for making /a/ joke. I woke up to a nightmare. Well, two. x.x..) -- Anyway, Forth. ...Yeah, they're public. <ω<'
06:32:34 <Keshl> Said incident didn't happen anywhere I know stuff's publically logged, though. -ω-.
06:33:12 <agumonkey2> Tell me you have an automated smiley generator
06:33:40 <agumonkey2> dzho: impomatic: what's the smallest asm forth you've ever seen ?
06:33:58 <impomatic> I have an interaction Forth in approx 900 bytes. http://www.retroprogramming.com/2012/09/itsy-documenting-bit-twiddling-voodoo.html
06:34:12 <Keshl> agumonkey2: I /am/ an automated smiley generator. o_o. And I have search-and-replace magic goin' on. <ω<'
06:35:10 <dzho> agumonkey2: I can't help you here.  
06:35:12 <agumonkey2> impomatic: I had that url in my toread list 
06:35:15 <impomatic> I.e. it covers the basics. There's a prompt, you can define new words, etc.
06:35:22 <agumonkey2> dzho: that's actually helpful
06:35:29 <dzho> heh.  
06:36:10 <impomatic> Itsy is pretty easy to extend.  I have a 2K version which includes most of the stuff I use regularly.
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09:15:47 <probonono> Keshl, I could be wrong but I don't think your comment regarding SSD sectors getting randomly overwritten is valid. A sector write is a sector write, even if it's outside of partitioned space. Certainly what might happen is that unpartitioned space might be considered fair game by other players, but that's nothing unique to SSDs.
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09:19:28 <probonono> Perhaps what you're thinking of is that an SSD typically has "spare" sectors which get swapped around for performance efficiency, wear-levelling, replacing failed flash pages, etc. but that's all managed transparently and shouldn't result in any sector data getting randomly overwritten.
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09:48:45 <Keshl> probonono: That's what I meant; trying to use the space where the SSD does that, as a bootloader. <ω<'
09:49:20 <Keshl> And yes, HDDs can do it too, but not as often as an SSD does. oωo.
10:06:55 <probonono> Keshl, yes but those areas are not subject to being randomly overwritten - from the user perspective - even if it's true internally. What was written is what will be read back. Have you experienced otherwise?
10:13:06 <probonono> The HDD case is different - spare sectors are allocated to replace "bad" sectors, but there is no "random overwriting" going on there. What is written will be read back (so long as the sector *can* be read).
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11:39:17 <Keshl> You're looking into this too deep. I know it's not random. x.x
11:39:43 <Keshl> It's easier to say "random" than forty-or-so-words explaining what actually happens there when it's not at all relevant to the conversation.
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12:35:16 <xyh> I have four versions now, who cares to do a little test ^-^ ? :: https://github.com/the-little-language-designer/cicada-nymph
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13:15:54 <bluekelp> four versions? do you mean the win/linux 32/64 bit alternatives?
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13:19:46 <xyh> yes~
13:19:46 <bluekelp> xyh: i think a better name for "xx" might be "cell" or "dc" (for "define cell")
13:20:38 <bluekelp> i'll check it out some time (more than just glancing at the asm file) - out of curiosity how large is the compiled object file?
13:21:18 <bluekelp> i'm a little obsessed (for no good reason) about tiny forth kernels - i even moved some of jonesforth's primitives from asm to forth to make the kernel smaller ;)
13:21:55 <xyh> 121K  cicada-nymph
13:21:55 <xyh> 118K  cicada-nymph-32
13:21:55 <xyh> 119K  cicada-nymph-32.exe
13:21:55 <xyh> 123K  cicada-nymph.exe
13:24:04 <bluekelp> i like your 32/64 "hacks" like redefining rax to eax - i think i'l borrow those for mine as well :)
13:29:07 <xyh> there are something tricky about this, when moving primitive-functions from 64 to 32 [or 32 to 64], you should test them step by step. otherwise it would be hard to find a bug after you moving too many primitive-functions.
13:30:04 <xyh> the function "show-dictionary" reports that I have 90 primitive-functions.
13:33:09 <xyh> I have to get some sleep :) I will read the clog
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13:33:48 <bluekelp> from my experience, everything in asm programming is tricky - until you've been doing it for a while :)
14:04:02 <mark4> bluekelp, want to help me do the same thing with isforth? :)
14:04:30 <mark4> x32 linux, ARM linux, Thumb2 Linux... would love to reduce the size of all of those
14:04:50 <mark4> maybe merge it all into one source tree and then just do make x32 make arm make thumb etc
14:05:02 <mark4> that would be a lot of work tho
14:13:52 <bluekelp> eventually sure - right now i'm in the middle of porting jones (don't hate me!) from gcc/gas syntax to nasm 
14:14:05 <bluekelp> but i love optimizing (space and time) so that's right up my alley
14:15:02 <bluekelp> once i start to grok how it works at a more intuitive level i would like to mess with other threading types - and even some non-threaded forths
14:15:10 <mark4> no that would make it somewhat more readable. hopefuly your also fixing the cluster$*^ formatting and "Wall of text" issues
14:15:22 <mark4> and maybe populating some of that puke with comments?
14:15:55 <bluekelp> re: non-threaded - i read in http://www.drdobbs.com/embedded-systems/modern-forth/210600604 about modern forths not being threaded and wondered how "deep" the inline compiles went, etc.
14:16:16 <mark4> let me know when you start wanting to learn isforth, i think you will find isforth far superior to jones
14:16:36 <bluekelp> well the wall of text in jones is what i currently find helpful. once i internalize the "forth way" i can rip it out for something much more concise
14:17:20 <bluekelp> jones is basic. but for now that's what i want. on top of (some forth kernel) i want to build a whole system to mess with for playing with PC hardware
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