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00:24:34 <wwall_> hello. simple question - where i can see example of read/write PNG image with forth
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00:34:01 <ttmrichter> wwall_: Probably nowhere?
00:34:55 <wwall_> bad. 
00:35:42 <ttmrichter> Forth systems aren't really intended to be "with batteries" systems generally.
00:36:56 <wwall_>  which library i need to use in wondows and sp-forth for reading PNG?
00:38:18 <ttmrichter> Forth systems aren't really intended to be "with batteries" systems generally.
00:38:32 <ttmrichter> That means you tend to write your own stuff.
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00:58:57 <yunfan> wwall_: as i knew, you need some libraries for lz77 or other png relevant compressing libraries
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01:46:33 <ttmrichter> Silly implementation question: is there any reason why a Forth kernel couldn't be Token Threaded with an overflow into some other threading technique if the token table gets filled?
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02:14:54 <proteusguy> ttmrichter, you mean like fall into an indirect threaded model for words outside the token table? Probably but I anticipate the complexity would be higher than doing something that allowed you to dynamically resize your token table when it hits a limit.
02:16:08 <proteusguy> Is your consideration related to wanting to keep key tokens in an L1 cache but let less common words resolve into a slower source?
02:45:16 <ttmrichter> That would be an issue, yes.
02:45:49 <ttmrichter> I was thinking originally of chaining token tables where token FF points to a code word that looks into a second (or third (or fourth)) token table.
02:46:53 <ttmrichter> But I was wondering if perhaps a hybrid approach wouldn't work as well and not leave me with the need to provide for dynamic token tables.
02:47:32 <ttmrichter> I'm operating under the assumption that the first 256 defined words are likely to be the most-used ones at run-time (since everything else will be built up from them anyway).
02:47:42 <ttmrichter> So it should be those optimized for things like caching, etc.
02:48:10 <tangentstorm> i don't think that's a good assumption. 
02:48:24 <tangentstorm> well.
02:48:35 <tangentstorm> okay yes i do. sorry. :)
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03:30:56 <wwall__> in win32Fotrh exists PictureView project. It's good example
03:31:10 <wwall__> for reading PNG
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04:31:01 <proteusguy_> ttmrichter, yeah I get your thinking. I've considered the same similar concept but never implemented it. Only one way to really find out I figure. :)
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04:34:24 <ttmrichter> proteusguy: Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.  :)
04:34:58 <ttmrichter> Well, when I move this onto an STM8 and recast the kernel as a token-threaded one, I'll see what it's like.
04:35:12 <ttmrichter> I'm thinking of backing the token table up with a subroutine implementation.
04:35:26 <yunfan> is token thread just the vm concept?
04:36:10 <ttmrichter> yunfan: Sort of.
04:36:41 <ttmrichter> Indirect threading has you faced with lists that point to descriptors of words.  You then use those descriptors to find the code and execute the code.
04:36:53 <ttmrichter> Direct threading removes descriptors from the cycle and point you directly at the code to execute.
04:37:14 <ttmrichter> Subroutine threading gives you lists of call/jsr/blx/whatever instructions.
04:37:40 <ttmrichter> Token threading gives you numbers that are indices into a table of pointers to the code that gets executed.
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04:38:46 <yunfan> but its looks like token threading seems be same with subroutine threading, if you got pointers from the token table, you of course need to call it
04:40:57 <ttmrichter> In all threading you have to call something.
04:41:10 <ttmrichter> The difference is only in how the calling is encoded and happens.
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05:02:35 <yunfan> then how the direct threading intepreter knews if a word is immediate or not?
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06:16:41 <ttmrichter> How does the indirect threading interpreter know?
06:16:58 <ttmrichter> It's a matter of which code you point to.
06:21:00 <ttmrichter> yunfan: http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm should clear up any mysteries.
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06:26:42 <yunfan> aha, it should be compiler which knews that, but when executing in the inner-intepreter, it dont need it , right?
06:31:48 <ttmrichter> Right.
06:32:01 <ttmrichter> With DTC the compiler is a bit more complicated but for that the inner interpreter is simpler.
06:32:10 <ttmrichter> (And faster.)
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06:35:05 <yunfan> what about the subroutine threading's performance? as i knew if you keep on calling, it looks like would break the pipeline of morden processor?
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07:38:11 <ttmrichter> yunfan: ITC is slower than all but TTC.
07:38:33 <ttmrichter> But the choice of DTC or STC is highly variable by processor.
07:39:38 <ttmrichter> TTC is generally a size optimization and will usually (perhaps always?) be slower than DTC or STC.
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09:27:23 <markm_> mental note to self. do not try to solder an Atmega32U4 breakout board (adafruit) while USB is plugged into it, it will destroy your laptop AND the drive within it
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09:54:50 <proteusguy> markm_, that's a neat trick.
09:55:18 <markm_> inorite!
09:55:31 <markm_> managed to vaporize some of the skin off my finger while i was at it
09:56:13 <markm_> it was 2am, i was tired and a bit frustrated. all i did was wire the ISP pins out to a header
09:56:15 <proteusguy> I generally avoid soldering anything with power applied to it. :)
09:56:20 <markm_> was also going to wire the JTAG pins out too
09:56:42 <markm_> so do i but like i said it was 2am
09:56:45 <markm_> solder some wires, hmm lets see if it works
09:57:07 <markm_> plug target in to usb, plug target into avr dragon, nope doesnt work
09:57:09 <markm_> unplug dragon
09:57:13 <markm_> start soldering ZAP
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10:00:06 <proteusguy> funtimes
10:00:25 <mark4th> the real tragedy is the drive also died
10:00:51 <mark4th> now i have to find a way to get all my stuff of of it but when i plug it into my external usb drive connector thingie the board is hot and it does not spin up
10:01:08 <mark4th> maybe my work will pay to have the data rescued because some of those files are theirs
10:02:29 <proteusguy> backups dude. tragedy.
10:03:30 <mark4th> ive not needed a backup of this drive in 4 years. i have no place to back it up anyway, i cant even afford a new drive
10:03:44 <mark4th> i get $600 a week and i give 500 of that to my landlord to pay back rent
10:03:48 <mark4th> i owe over a years worth
10:05:19 <tangentstorm> do you want some work?
10:06:50 <mark4th> heh i have work but for now its super low pay. it takes up 200% of my time
10:07:10 <mark4th> but if you HAVE work... i have no way to do it till i replace my laptop lol
10:07:21 <mark4th> i have a desktop but its also got issues
10:07:21 <tangentstorm> how are you talking on irc now?
10:07:29 <mark4th> at work on works laptop
10:07:42 <mark4th> a very sucky slow one that i stopped using because of its suckage
10:07:47 <mark4th> it has less suckage now than mine
10:07:48 <tangentstorm> where do you work?
10:07:58 <tangentstorm> nm not my business.
10:08:01 <mark4th> company called Plasmacomp they do M2M and IOT stuff
10:08:09 <tangentstorm> are you working as a developer?
10:08:14 <mark4th> yes
10:08:54 <tangentstorm> how is it that they are paying you so little?
10:09:13 <mark4th> right now i have to create a XBee mesh network using arduinos and have that mesh track another arduino as it moves throught the net and have it report the position back to their analytics site.
10:09:25 <mark4th> i have a week to get this working which i can do
10:09:47 <mark4th> because for all intents and purposes i have been out of work for 4 years other than one very short term contract
10:09:51 <mark4th> so i took it
10:10:17 <mark4th> once i prove my worth ill negotiate a real wage
10:11:08 <tangentstorm> where are you in the world?
10:11:27 <mark4th> dallas texas
10:11:47 <tangentstorm> lol
10:12:00 <mark4th> not my fave place in the world. i would rather be in phoenix az
10:12:19 <tangentstorm> i've got a pile of old desktop machines if you want one. i'm in benbrook.
10:12:37 <mark4th> whers benbrook?
10:12:54 <tangentstorm> southwest corner of fort worth.
10:13:18 <mark4th> my desktop is an asus rampage iv extreme with an LGA 2011 cup (no longer overclocked) and 64 gigs of ram
10:13:42 <mark4th> problem is it got a little damp because something leaked and i can no longer overclock it to 4.7ghz
10:13:55 <mark4th> the desktop works, its just having issues 
10:14:03 <mark4th> if your THAT close we should meet some time lol
10:14:21 <tangentstorm> oh. the ones i have are like ancient dell machines. they've still got 3.5 inch floppy drives but they work.
10:14:50 <mark4th> heh actually i have a compaq deskpro that i salvaed from a place i used to work at
10:14:59 <mark4th> it had a 20 megabyte drive in it!!
10:15:04 <tangentstorm> :)
10:15:05 <mark4th> woooohoo! 20 MEGA!!!
10:15:13 <mark4th> it has a 300G drive in it now
10:15:26 <tangentstorm> wow. my first 386 had 40mb.
10:15:35 <mark4th> yea i know
10:15:47 <mark4th> i think i had 20 to 40mb but i ferget exactly
10:15:55 <mark4th> this one was ANCIENT
10:16:15 <mark4th> but the cpu is an 800 mhz something or other
10:16:17 <tangentstorm> i don't currently have any work. i'm looking for clients on odesk.
10:16:25 <mark4th> whats odesk?
10:16:37 <tangentstorm> it's a freelancing site.
10:16:43 <mark4th> aha
10:17:06 <mark4th> are you limited in where you can travel to to work?
10:17:22 <tangentstorm> no you do everything online.
10:17:23 <mark4th> for example, if a contract came up in east podunk idaho could you take it?
10:17:29 <tangentstorm> it's all remote work.
10:17:53 <mark4th> i mean. if some head hunter called you and said "i have a gig in east podunk" could you take the work?
10:17:59 <mark4th> i.e. an on site not remote
10:18:03 <tangentstorm> there's another one called elance.com ... they're the two main players in the field and they recently merged. 
10:18:16 <tangentstorm> you mean could i personally relocate if i wanted to? yes.
10:18:33 <tangentstorm> i don't really want to though.
10:18:46 <mark4th> well i was thinking in terms of "drive to east podunk, do the work, finish the contract then drive to the next"
10:18:50 <mark4th> thats what i did for years
10:19:02 <mark4th> you wouldnt technically be MOVING to east podunk
10:19:33 <tangentstorm> i see what you mean. that's never come up for me. i guess i could do it if i wanted and had the opportunity. :)
10:20:15 <mark4th> well what kind of work do you do? i have been using 3 or 4 agencies for years, oxford, black diamond to name just two
10:20:17 <mark4th> HUGE agencies
10:20:39 <tangentstorm> just whatever.
10:21:01 <tangentstorm> my last gig was teaching someone about interpreters.
10:21:28 <mark4th> unless you spent about a year doing that then they didnt get much out of it... as long as you got paid tho :)
10:22:14 <tangentstorm> he had very specific questions. he wanted me to make a simple example interpreter for him and explain it. so i did.
10:22:31 <mark4th> cool
10:22:36 <mark4th> you use forth?? :)
10:22:45 <tangentstorm> no. pascal actually. :)
10:25:42 <tangentstorm> i've been working on my own thing for a long time, and i kind of ran out of savings so i'm having to hustle a bit myself. i'm currently learning unity (game engine) and planning to focus on making cross platform mobile apps/games.
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10:26:33 <mark4th> yea cool
10:26:47 <mark4th> i was working on an android game
10:27:08 <mark4th> i DO have a backup of that
10:27:35 <mark4th> that would have been a major catastrophy, i would have to rewrite my android forth :)
10:27:42 <mark4th> phew! wipes brow :)
10:28:07 <tangentstorm> so your hd is completely gone?
10:30:00 <mark4th> does not spin up, board gets hot
10:30:05 <tangentstorm> :/
10:30:06 <proteusguy> mark4th, github man!!
10:30:12 <tangentstorm> ^
10:30:13 <mark4th> if i can find another exactly like it i can replace the board
10:30:20 <mark4th> no i wont put MY projects on github
10:30:29 <mark4th> i have all my sources on isforth.com
10:30:30 <proteusguy> you can have private accounts.
10:30:36 <mark4th> dont care. 
10:30:43 <mark4th> for a start i HATE git
10:30:51 <mark4th> and yes i know you can use other vc there
10:30:57 <tangentstorm> dropbox then
10:31:29 <tangentstorm> or there's a bittorrent-like thing that lets you run your own dropbox if you want. 
10:31:42 <tangentstorm> http://www.getsync.com/
10:32:05 <tangentstorm> (all of these things are free.)
10:32:38 <mark4th> the reason they are free is they get to mine the data for marketing research bullshit to sell to the spammers.
10:33:04 <tangentstorm> mmm. no? :)
10:35:10 <tangentstorm> hrm. okay that sync thing isn't open source but: http://syncthing.net/
10:40:58 <proteusguy> mark4th, I dislike git as well. much prefer hg, but everyone uses git these days. We actually host our own private git server.
10:41:19 <mark4th> i use HG at home
10:41:28 <mark4th> my beagleboard xm is my HG server
10:41:43 <mark4th> like i said, i have a backup of my source files
10:41:48 <mark4th> other than the ones for work lol
10:42:36 <proteusguy> I checkin early & often. Everytime a new piece of code does anything right I push it. 
10:43:04 <tangentstorm> same
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11:55:42 <Mat4> hello
11:57:07 <tangentstorm> heya Mat4 . how's it going?
11:57:39 <Mat4> hi tangentstorm, nice
11:58:12 <Mat4> I'm fnished the AOT compiler for Nim (there only need to build a backend from it)
11:58:19 <Mat4>  finished
11:58:33 <tangentstorm> cool :)
11:59:05 <Mat4> of couse I use it also for my own language
11:59:15 <Mat4>  course
11:59:23 <Mat4> (my keyboard get old)
12:01:13 <Mat4> what about your projects ?
12:01:36 <markm_> Mat4, your using the Nim language? (formerly Nimrod?)
12:02:13 <Mat4> yes because I found the syntax more readable (for me) as plain (ANSI) C
12:04:55 <Mat4> in addition the language has some more recent features like range types, closures, generic types and a usable type-system (read one which don't need to bypass to be productive)
12:05:16 <Mat4> ^which you
12:05:36 <markm_> mat4 a friend of mine was working with nim not long ago, he was very active in the forums and was working on some patches for it
12:07:13 <Mat4> probably one interested in embedded development
12:07:16 <Mat4> I guess
12:07:51 * tangentstorm has been learning unity.
12:08:32 <tangentstorm> i might adopt that little 'cat' language (it's sort of a high-level stack language in c#)
12:09:05 <Mat4> however, I use Nim as assembler replacement mainly
12:09:35 <Mat4> tangentstorm: what's unity ?
12:10:31 <tangentstorm> it's a tool for making cross platform games and other graphics apps.
12:10:46 <tangentstorm> http://unity3d.com/
12:11:09 <tangentstorm> it's .net powered, so that's the relation to c#
12:12:14 <Mat4> The Net environment(s) get more attractive for me at current, mainly because of F#
12:14:00 <Mat4> there exist even a Forth implementation
12:14:34 <tangentstorm> what, that targets the CLR directly?
12:14:42 <Mat4> yes
12:15:06 <tangentstorm> delta forth
12:15:14 <tangentstorm> http://www.codeproject.com/Tips/1752/Delta-Forth-NET
12:15:42 <Mat4> yes, this one
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12:19:17 <Mat4> why you are study Unity ? Writing a game ?
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12:22:32 <tangentstorm> for contract work.
12:24:05 <Mat4> good luck
12:24:15 <tangentstorm> thanks.
12:24:20 <tangentstorm> i do like making games though.
12:24:37 <tangentstorm> hrm. maybe i should port mako.
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14:43:45 <Mat4> ciao
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17:14:02 <yunfan> is there any mmorpg game using forth?
17:55:24 <kumul> PFFT
17:55:31 <kumul> well
17:55:55 <kumul> minecraft does support it
17:56:08 <gabc> wat, forth?
17:56:12 <kumul> yes
17:56:30 <kumul> although mincraft isnt an mmorpg
17:57:19 <gabc> Well, didn't think Redpower was that badass
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18:16:00 <yunfan> wat?
18:16:48 <yunfan> by using forth i mean use forth for making game 
18:16:55 <yunfan> or as a embeding language
18:17:21 <gabc> yunfan: look for 'Minecraft forth' it's basically that.. in a roundabout way
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