00:00:00 --- log: started forth/15.02.01 00:14:03 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Remote host closed the connection) 00:16:13 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 00:16:25 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 00:33:13 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 00:37:38 --- join: Keshl_ (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 00:40:30 --- join: yunfan (~roooot@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 00:41:09 --- join: beretta_ (~beretta@cpe-65-185-42-203.columbus.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:42:00 --- join: backer_ (~backer@banjo.employees.org) joined #forth 00:42:09 --- join: Quozl`_ (~quozl@owl.laptop.org) joined #forth 00:42:41 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@73.156.200.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 00:47:19 --- quit: Bahman (*.net *.split) 00:47:19 --- quit: yunfan_ (*.net *.split) 00:47:19 --- quit: impomatic (*.net *.split) 00:47:20 --- quit: backer (*.net *.split) 00:47:20 --- quit: karswell` (*.net *.split) 00:47:21 --- quit: Quozl` (*.net *.split) 00:47:21 --- quit: ttmrichter (*.net *.split) 00:47:22 --- quit: beretta (*.net *.split) 00:47:22 --- quit: Keshl (*.net *.split) 00:47:22 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 00:48:39 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@104.236.165.12) joined #forth 00:49:58 --- nick: Keshl_ -> Keshl 00:52:52 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@89.41.21.166) joined #forth 00:58:08 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 01:04:41 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:05:00 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 01:51:09 --- quit: Keshl (Remote host closed the connection) 01:51:36 --- join: Keshl (~Purple@24.115.181.94.res-cmts.gld.ptd.net) joined #forth 02:13:17 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 03:23:00 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-174-53.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 03:45:54 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 03:47:56 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 03:51:08 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@104.236.165.12) joined #forth 03:56:51 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@host-2-97-60-182.as13285.net) joined #forth 03:56:51 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 03:56:51 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 04:01:19 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-14.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 04:01:19 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 04:17:26 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 04:21:11 --- join: darkf_ (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 04:25:15 --- quit: darkf (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:26:11 --- nick: darkf_ -> darkf 04:26:19 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@109.144.171.177) joined #forth 04:26:19 --- quit: denysonique (Changing host) 04:26:19 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 04:33:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:38:41 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:58:51 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: gone to fix a server for Staffc CC) 05:00:50 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@110.222.43.35) joined #forth 05:08:56 --- join: bedah (~bedah@g224154238.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 05:09:17 hi 05:10:32 new here, i clicked some links in topic, http://www.isforth.com/ is dead, http://forthfreak.net/ shows no content 05:11:38 isforth will be back when I440r can buy back his domain. 05:11:41 Don't know the other one. 05:12:00 Me, I tend to favour www.forth.org. 05:12:08 kthanx 05:19:25 so.. why i am here: i'm looking for a small stack machine for avr 8bit, i've tested amforth some years ago, but the codebase was lots of ASM 05:19:37 i am more the gcc guy.. 05:24:24 bedah: http://www.bradrodriguez.com/papers/moving1.htm 05:25:56 xyh, it would be better if you provide more explanation than just link the poor guy to another site. 05:26:43 --- join: bedah2 (~bedah@g230212187.adsl.alicedsl.de) joined #forth 05:30:11 --- quit: bedah (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:33:40 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 05:56:19 bedah2: Why is the code base of a language being in ASM a problem for you if you're ... using the language? 05:56:37 Coding a Forth in C for an embedded platform is actually kind of pointless. 05:56:47 You'll have the worst of both worlds. 05:57:32 hmk. point is: i have not much memory for saving "words" or how that is called in forth 05:58:10 i want to use some extra code for i/o, and i am not sure that i want to write that code in asm 05:58:27 So instead you're going to lose all the memory benefits of using a Forth by coding it in C. 05:58:38 That's what I mean by "worst of both worlds". 05:59:50 i want to have the benefit of programming the controller without reprogramming it. AVR is harward architekture, so if i want to run some code without reprogramming, i need something which is interpreted 06:00:19 and you are right, i will loose the speed and efficiency of forth 06:00:55 AVR is also one of the simpler ISAs. I suspect you'll find it easier to build up a small library of primitive code words in assembler than you will find it to make a C-based forth acceptable in size and performance. 06:01:06 C is a "portable assembler" only to a point. 06:01:37 There comes a point, however, where it doesn't work as an assembler very well, and IMO that point coincides roughly with where you code a Forth. :) 06:01:39 hmm. you are right. 06:02:07 Keep in mind that you'll only have to write a very small number of primitive code words that do REALLY low-level stuff in assembler. 06:02:15 The rest can be built up as threaded words. 06:03:55 you are again right. and coding in asm should be easy, as i get the asm code from the gcc. 06:04:08 That would be one trick, yes. 06:04:19 And then you can hand-optimize it and fit it into a code word. 06:04:41 If you have a decent macro processor in your assembler even that part can be pretty simple. 06:05:11 define_codeword "WORD", word_label, FLAG_WHATEVER 06:05:21 /* put assembler here */ 06:05:32 end_codeword 06:05:58 All the rote stuff that goes into building the dictionary chain or setting up labels and pointers as needed goes into the macro once. 06:06:53 * ttmrichter doesn't quite understand the assembler fear many people have. 06:07:10 It's more tedious than fearsome IMO, once you've spent about a week learning the main things in the ISA. 06:07:54 And a lot of the tedium can be dealt with by careful use of macros. 06:08:58 hmk. 06:10:00 Now, to be fair, I don't know the AVR's ISA. Maybe it's a nasty one like PIC's. :) 06:10:15 one advantage of c would be: easier to port to, lets say, arm. and other c programmer could be interested in it. 06:10:55 Well, I'm (slowly) making a Forth that will be multi-MCU architecture. 06:11:01 And it's ASM-based. 06:12:09 Relying, of course, on macros, etc. Taking a page from SNOBOL4's implementation. 06:13:13 yesterday a friend showed me this espruino on a stm32 board. kind of crazy. 06:13:25 javascript on cheap arm 06:13:36 * ttmrichter shudders. 06:14:48 the main problem i had with amforth was the interface: only UART. i would really like to use a ps2 keyboard and a small alphanum display, but ps2 decoding needs some interrupts and a lookup table for each keyboard layout 06:15:12 i could use another controller as terminal, erx 06:16:35 Huh. AVR looks pretty sane actually. 06:17:09 avr has lots of documentation, that's why arduino is so popular 06:17:41 I'm an ST fanboi myself at the moment. 06:17:44 Loads of STM32 kit. 06:17:56 And some STM8 kit just to be contrarian. :) 06:18:33 it was the stm32 f3 yesterday, the board with javascript interpreter on it 06:18:46 Yeah, but I won't touch JavaScript. 06:19:04 And JavaScript for anything realtime makes me giggle. 06:19:13 me neither, only at work.. in my spare time i do real controller stuff 06:19:49 This is my hobby horse of the moment: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=36481303532 06:19:54 First target for my Forth. 06:20:20 This will be the second: http://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=35058243143 06:20:41 This will be the third: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=18823653550 06:23:16 Once I have the STM32F103 and STM8S covered I'll cover both sides of this: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=17059282677 06:26:46 i had a stm8 discovery board some years ago, i gave it away - to cumbersome to find proper docs and software for linux 06:27:32 but i really like THT stuff 06:27:41 THT? 06:27:50 And yeah, building a Linux toolchain is a pain. 06:28:08 When time comes for STM8 support I'll be adding SWIM support to OpenOCD. 06:29:29 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 06:30:42 Through Hole Technology 06:31:40 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:32:27 Ah. 06:33:12 item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=20038841120 - 128k rom, 4k ram, and some eeprom for words. some passive parts and an ftdi, one programmer, and it runs amforth 06:33:42 smaller ones are way cheaper 06:34:45 Yeah, but I can get an STM32F030F4P6 for a lot less. Hell, I can get an entire BOARD with one (http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=36481303532) for cheaper. 06:35:44 detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=41682594988 that would be one of the cheapest boards with an atmega and an bootloader. 06:36:39 What are the specs on that one? 06:37:09 plug n play under linux, (udev rules needed), 32k rom, 2k ram, .5k eeprom 06:37:25 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@109.144.171.177) joined #forth 06:37:26 --- quit: denysonique (Changing host) 06:37:26 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 06:37:33 you might need two, one can be used as an programmer for the second one 06:38:01 programming is done with the software avrdude 06:38:34 all i/o 5V, 20mA per pin. and 16mhz 06:39:12 See, I have tons of JTAG/SWD kit so going with one of the STM32 boards is still more cost-effective for me. 06:39:35 Like that one: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=22097803050 06:40:03 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 06:40:38 .oO i should learn more chinese 06:41:27 64KB Flash, 20KB RAM. 06:41:33 Cortex-M3 core. 06:41:39 Gorgeous board. 06:42:11 jlink is the jtag adapter? 06:42:35 i never used jtag/in circuit debugger.. most time i simply write correct code 06:42:38 J-Link is a JTAG adapter. 06:43:04 I'm making this for my son using it: http://imgur.com/gallery/f7c3CTr 06:43:09 JTAG is also used for programming. 06:43:27 Easier than screwing around with boot loaders on SPI, USART, USB, etc. 06:43:54 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@110.222.43.35) joined #forth 06:44:38 i allways have to compile my c code, connect the programmer, upload the code. 06:45:05 forth could do the trick 06:46:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dZNd3DgT5o this is one of my toys: five wheel robot 06:47:14 Yeah, Youtube isn't an option for me at the moment. 06:47:25 My back door is saturated in bandwidth at the moment. 06:47:40 http://imgur.com/zkUjjDv than here is a pic 06:50:28 so.. i think the easiest way for me would be: 1. small terminal with display and keyboard in c. 2. amforth, adding words which i need, this can take a while 06:53:16 i need to do some dishcleaning 06:54:23 That's a weird bot. The wheels look cool. 06:56:12 "transwheels", the cheaper form of omniwheels 06:57:10 friends built a soccerbot with three omniwheels, i helped them doing the math, and then i wanted a bot with more wheels 06:57:11 Now to find out how to say that in Chinese... :( 07:00:45 全向輪 there you are ;D 07:03:28 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 07:18:15 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:22:58 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 07:39:35 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-237-201.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:52:25 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:56:07 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@89.41.21.166) joined #forth 08:08:49 badah i have an avr forth 08:10:18 its not quite finished tho :( i didnt get the talker done yet 08:17:37 talker? 08:17:48 congrats, I440r :) 08:18:04 avr forth from http://krue.net/avrforth/ or amforth? 08:18:31 its a teathered forth that worst through isforth. i just need to make the talker so you can intereact with the target via forth 08:18:36 or https://github.com/nfz/asforth ? 08:19:05 i wrote the avr assembler and the forth over a year ago 08:19:23 oh an own development then 08:19:30 yes 08:20:08 the assembler will assemble for any avr but i only have a description file for the atmega 32u4 08:20:35 that's the small one with built in usb 08:20:41 yes 08:21:30 i mostly have atmega328, the cheapest boards from china beneath the 32u4 08:21:39 :) 08:22:02 just need a description file for that and my assembler will assemble for that device 08:22:34 but my forth needs the talker and i stopped development because i need to single step the primitives in the kernel to debug 08:22:59 is a talker just the normal prompt where you type forth words? 08:23:00 and while i have an avr dragon i cant use it because the 32 u4 board i have scatters the pins for jtag 08:23:06 "talker" is the little console via uart? 08:23:16 yes or via usb cdc 08:23:37 there are no compiling or creating words on the target, no headers. 08:23:43 all the compiling is done on the host 08:29:52 the talker would be a seamless interfae between the host and the target 08:30:03 : foo .... ; <-- a host word 08:30:05 target 08:30:10 : foo ..... ; 08:30:21 a target word compiled on the host and written to the target 08:30:23 host 08:30:24 foo 08:30:27 execute host foo 08:30:28 target 08:30:28 foo 08:30:32 you get it :P 08:34:28 i got some external ram chips, but only few AVR support these, the rest need some abstraction, but that would give quite a lot of ram 08:35:00 afk 08:40:20 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 08:42:17 ah cool 08:43:17 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@109.144.171.177) joined #forth 08:43:17 --- quit: denysonique (Changing host) 08:43:17 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 09:18:33 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 09:49:03 --- join: Quiznos (~lamar@c-73-28-150-83.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:49:21 anyone home? awake? 09:50:25 bo0? 09:54:20 ? 09:54:32 --- part: Quiznos left #forth 10:03:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 10:30:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:35:20 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:45:22 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 10:45:57 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 11:03:33 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 11:28:06 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 11:36:05 --- join: karswell` (~user@201.67.208.46.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 12:07:13 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@c-76-31-212-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:17:55 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144209159.atnat0018.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 12:29:21 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 12:59:25 --- nick: beretta_ -> beretta 13:14:51 --- quit: bedah2 (Quit: schnellquitten) 13:23:27 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-64-237-237-201.prtc.net) joined #forth 13:25:56 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:33:14 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 14:30:16 --- quit: nisstyre (Changing host) 14:30:16 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 14:57:54 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-8.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) joined #forth 15:03:14 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 15:04:57 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 15:06:56 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:23:47 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 15:39:29 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:49:56 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Leaving.) 16:18:42 --- nick: backer_ -> Backer 16:49:27 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 17:17:45 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-64-237-237-201.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:48:00 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 18:01:07 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@222.58.89.63) joined #forth 18:34:28 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 19:28:51 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 19:35:06 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 19:58:11 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 20:49:51 --- join: protist (~javery@95.176.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 21:17:15 --- quit: kumool (Quit: Leaving) 21:17:40 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-237-201.prtc.net) joined #forth 21:29:46 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 21:31:09 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@183.89.209.51) joined #forth 21:31:09 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 21:37:19 --- quit: denysonique (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:49:48 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@109.144.171.177) joined #forth 21:49:48 --- quit: denysonique (Changing host) 21:49:48 --- join: denysonique (~quassel@unaffiliated/dennisonicc) joined #forth 21:53:14 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Quit: Leaving) 21:53:57 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:04:55 --- quit: I440r (Quit: Leaving) 22:08:30 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 22:08:37 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:25:12 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 23:26:04 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 23:30:48 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@73.156.200.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 23:31:00 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 23:31:13 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/15.02.01