00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.12.27 00:03:16 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 00:03:29 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@c-71-206-218-187.hsd1.wv.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:28:58 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 00:33:11 --- quit: Savoyard (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 00:51:30 --- quit: scoofy (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 00:53:13 --- nick: MrM0bius -> MrMobius 00:53:38 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 01:31:46 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 01:39:34 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@84.241.8.144) joined #forth 01:42:03 --- join: protist (~javery@51.255.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 01:42:23 ttmrichter, I think he has an ARM isforth but not sure what asm set he's using. 01:45:11 --- quit: MrMobius (Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew.) 01:47:16 AFAIK it's not Thumb-compatible. But it's hard to tell given that iforth.com is down. :( 01:51:15 damn, just hindered by the security man of airport 01:52:06 she said no battery has a storage higger than 30k mA could be passed, and since mine dont has a storage number, i cant take it 01:52:58 then i told her that if she could store 30k mA into such a little things, then she could won a nobel prize for physics 01:53:30 but still i get refused unless i call a ems service 01:56:04 Security theatre at its finest. 01:56:54 ttmrichter: i could accept reasonable rules 01:57:14 but what they done is make trouble for good passengers 01:58:00 for eg, they say, if you have a storage number printed on that battery, and its smallers than 30k mA, then you could take it 01:58:26 ttmrichter, wayback machine keeps the download files and links but I think you're right that he's still wroking on thumb. http://web.archive.org/web/20140628045749/http://www.isforth.com/ 01:58:48 but cant a real terrorist make a special shell for that battery, which print a fake and smaller storage number? 01:59:06 yunfan, what airport is this? of course it's complete and utter nonsense. 01:59:22 proteusguy: i am in beijing airport 01:59:49 Last time I emptied my backpack I found it had a lighter in it full of fluid that I've carried with me for 2 years nonstop everywhere around the world. Never was detected. 02:00:15 If they wanna know if a battery is safe they need to have a multi-meter along. 02:00:49 proteusguy: looks like you have a you have a blog for isforth and other old chips? 02:01:06 yunfan, I don't have a blog about it. what link you referring to? 02:01:07 i used to found a blog introduced isforth and those old chips stuff 02:01:22 all this war on terrorism is funny 02:01:28 i might check my bookmarks 02:02:06 even the number of people that died in WTC is nothing tragic, the same amount of people die every month on the road in US 02:02:46 denysonique, welcome to #forth 02:03:28 yunfan: It's security theatre. They're not doing this to improve security. They're doing it to assert control using security as the excuse. 02:03:30 denysonique: nope, the war is very worth 02:03:43 denysonique: because it take china the oil from iraq lol 02:03:45 denysonique: I think it's actually quite a bit higher on the ruads. 02:04:33 yunfan, every time the govt declares war on something we get more of it. REmember the war on poverty? We've spent trillions increasing poverty. The way the "war on terrorism" has been conducted can only result in more terrorism. 02:04:48 ttmrichter: also i very angry of what they told you cant use your phone on the fly since its dangerous for flying 02:04:58 proteusguy: War on Drugs. War on Poverty. War on Terror. War on War... 02:05:08 but if this is true, why not real terrorist use their phone for attacking? 02:05:16 yunfan: That one is a little bit (stress LITTLE bit) more plausible. 02:05:32 proteusguy: i dont spent money, i am chinese :] 02:05:54 yunfan, when your government spends money on your behalf, you are spending money. :) 02:05:55 but since our gov boughts so many of your debts, i might spent money for your wars too 02:06:13 In the end everybody pays for America's wars. 02:06:22 indeed 02:06:23 In the form of total economic meltdowns. 02:06:29 Like 2008's. 02:06:37 btw, i heard of that the US has become the 2nd export oil country? 02:07:24 after the solution of shale gas? 02:07:31 Wrong time to do it with oil prices dropping like a concussed bee. 02:08:11 i am interesting of how middle east country change when all main country migarate to other energy souce 02:08:15 ttmrichter, oild prices dropped in large part due to the increase of supply due to shale oil. 02:08:31 like japan's hydrogen plan 02:08:44 yunfan, several are trying to diversify but they're having a difficult time. 02:09:07 ttmrichter: btw, when the oil price dropped, the oil consuming tax rised in china, have you mentioned that? 02:09:25 yunfan, hydrogen is not a power source, it's a form of power transmission and an incredibly inefficient one. (until we finally get fusion then everything will be hydrogen powered). 02:09:31 proteusguy: i think they could success in a decade 02:09:39 yunfan, success at what? 02:09:52 proteusguy: of course, but they could use sunpower and nuclear power 02:10:14 for sunpower i mean solar thermal power not PV 02:10:45 there's a millions watts stations of solar thermal power at beijing, i am very interesting of it 02:11:13 i need to boarding now, bye 02:11:25 yunfan, solar power can't work large scale until power storage (like supercapacitors) is more efficient. I am a fan of solar as the most promising alternative energy, however. Especially for smaller scale distributed systems. SOlar thermal is extremely limited in application geographically and in terms of what it can be used for. 02:11:34 yunfan, good flight 02:11:45 I'm more a fan of wind myself. 02:11:56 Especially with some of the newer non-rotational systems coming out. 02:12:44 ttmrichter, wind is absolutely a loser when you review the physics. It also requires extraordinary space and is environmentally destructive. Few wind installations ever last long enough to even break even. 02:13:16 There's a very interesting one being developed here. A trial park that looks for all the world like a bamboo garden made of steel. 02:13:36 * proteusguy is amazed at all the attempts to utilize energy sources that require 98% efficiency to ever be useful. Demonstrates political motivations and not good science. 02:13:37 It generates from the flexing of the "bamboo". 02:14:04 Benefits: can blend in with real bamboo parks, doesn't require as much space, can take wind from any direction. 02:14:19 As a primary source it's likely nonsense, but as a supplement it's probably quite good. 02:14:19 ttmrichter, what are its efficiencies and at what wind speed ranges? When you review this you quickly see that wind can't work. 02:15:07 Don't know the efficiency, but I do know that the lights in said park are driven entirely by the "bamboo" and they're operational even in fairly light wind. 02:15:11 ttmrichter, also wind suffers from the same storage issues (battery) as solar. 02:15:23 Yes. Storage is the big killer. 02:15:26 we need to start utilizing nuclear power properly 02:15:31 denysonique, +1 02:15:56 and forget about climate change bs 02:16:12 in europe energy is expensive because of this 02:16:32 countries such as China don't care and are taking over economically 02:17:04 also nuclear energy == less CO2 02:17:54 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 02:18:09 meanwhile forth is really cool.... :-) 02:19:34 I'd rather have my atomic reactors controlled by a stack based forth processor than a java machine. :) 02:22:12 --- quit: Savoyard (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 02:23:28 proteusguy, a new dictionary is called a vocabulary. the search order is called the context 02:23:44 too see what vocabularies are currently defined use .vocs 02:23:51 to see the current context use .context 02:24:05 to add a vocabulary to context just name the vocabulary 02:24:15 to create a new vocabulary use vocabulary foo 02:24:36 to make new definitions go into a specific vocabulary name that voc then say definitions 02:24:45 so vocabulary foo foo definitions 02:25:01 to remove a vocabulary from context name the vocabulary then say previous 02:25:04 foo previous 02:25:09 foo is no longer in context 02:26:10 how do I change the order of vocabularies in a context? 02:26:10 in most forths you can add a vocabular to context more than once so you can have root forth compiler forth foo 02:26:31 well theres a word called only. that removes everything from contextg EXCEPT root 02:26:35 so 02:26:45 only compiler forth 02:26:53 root compiler forth <--- top 02:27:13 Any of this documented anywhere? :) 02:27:45 in isforth if you have root forth compiler foo and you want forth on top just say forth 02:27:55 you will get root compiler foo forth 02:28:06 I see... 02:28:13 naming a voc thats in context rotates it out to top 02:28:19 naming one thats not adds it to top 02:29:00 so a vocabulary name is a word that I call like any other word but it throws itself at the top of the context stack? 02:29:06 there are advantages to being able to add a voc to context more than once but i find it messy 02:29:32 so instead i have a mechanism to create a stack of contexts. 02:29:36 +context 02:29:43 you now have a totally NEW context stack 02:29:49 only foo compiler forth bar 02:29:54 do your thing 02:29:56 -context 02:30:04 you have now reverted back to the old context stack 02:30:19 erm you have to say context: my_new_context 02:30:46 erm i ferget how to switch lol ive not done it in ages. +context my_new_context ? 02:30:49 i ferget 02:30:54 and no none of it is documented 02:31:00 I440r, one thing I've always wanted to do, within the interpreter, is to create a new definition for a word, sub-word, which another word, primary-word, depends on and then rebind the definition of sub-word within primary-word to the new sub-word definition. 02:31:22 erm thats what defer does :) 02:31:51 how does that work? 02:32:04 you know what defer does? 02:32:15 defer foo 02:32:23 : blah ." blah" cr ; 02:32:26 ' blah is foo 02:32:29 foo 02:32:31 blah 02:32:46 a deferred word is basically a self executing variable 02:32:53 you POINT the deferred word at something 02:33:01 for example emit is a deferred word 02:33:19 but that imposes over head during the execution of blah as it dynamically resolves foo doesn't it? 02:33:31 you can change emit to call (emit) or (printer_emit) or (i2c_emit) or (wifi_emit) or what ever you want 02:34:05 it is very VERY marginally slower than calling a non deferred word 02:34:10 negligable 02:34:14 and it sloves a huge problem 02:34:33 you can also create a chain of deferred words. for example "Default" is a chain of deferred words 02:34:46 negligable is highly context specific. :) I agree dynamic dispatch is a powerful concept but sometimes I don't want to pay for the overhead and it will add up. 02:34:48 : my_module_init defers default blah blah ; 02:36:01 but it solves the something you wanted to do problem and i see no other way to do so :) 02:36:51 I440r, that's the answer I anticipated, "you can't" haha no forth I've seen supports this but it's always sometihing I've wanted for incremental development in the interpreter environment ala smalltalk. 02:37:19 every forth supports deferred words 02:37:19 naturally I can use forth source code and recompile but I'm trying to speed up my round trips. 02:37:27 and deferred words is exacutly what you are talking about 02:37:56 I440r, yes, I just wanted to avoid the dynamic dispatch. I want to recompile the primary-word to utilize the new version of sub-word. 02:38:27 Thanx for the info about vocabularies. I like the way you've done it. I have to run to dinner now. ttyl. 02:38:30 well you CAN do that too but... youwould have to recompile everything you needed AFTER that recompiled word too 02:38:53 forget foo : foo defintion of foo ; : bar definition of bar ; 02:38:59 forget foo : foo new definiton of foo ; 02:39:04 but forgetting foo forgets bar too 02:39:16 make me dinners too! 02:39:23 except its breakfast lol 02:40:16 yeah I wish forget were more selective but it makes me thing setting up temporary vocabs might allow me to play in a shallow context until I find what I want and save it in forth source. 02:40:23 dinner in bangkok. :) 02:41:22 :) 02:42:01 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:43:14 i need to publish my avr forth lol 02:43:27 not ready for public consumption yet tho 02:43:51 and im working on the thumb2 port of the ARM forth. ill retire the arm32 forth once the thumb2 version is working 02:45:31 the context stack stack works like this.. 02:45:43 context: my-context \ create a new context stack 02:46:01 my-context \ make my-context the current in use context stack. 02:46:29 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:46:37 the previous context stack will be copied into my-context when you activate it 02:46:37 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 02:46:55 so if you dont want that you can do only forth compuiler foo bar bam whatevetr 02:48:02 when you are done you need to revert back to the previous context stack and i ferget how to do that now lol give me a sec 02:48:24 -context 02:48:40 my-context still exists but its no longer active 03:59:38 --- join: scoofy (~spirit@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu) joined #forth 04:06:49 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 04:11:25 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-239-150.prtc.net) joined #forth 04:11:43 --- quit: Savoyard (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:24:49 --- quit: Adeon (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:25:55 --- join: Adeon (shannon@sukima.trankesbel.com) joined #forth 04:31:03 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:35:41 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 04:46:29 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 04:54:20 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:59:24 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 05:14:58 I440r, why kill arm32 forth for thumb? Sometimes you don't want thumb. 05:18:20 well thumb is more space efficient and its guaranteed to work on any arm device that supports thumb2 05:18:30 and i already have 28465294765 different versions of isforth to maintain lolk 05:18:37 and i really need to sort that out 05:18:52 every version has its own version of the extensions because i make optimizations i dont port back 05:19:16 too busy developing to develop right! lol 05:19:37 the arm version isnt quite working yet and i also have the android arm version so thats THREE different versions for arm 05:20:03 :) how different is the android version from the arm32? 05:20:17 well the arm32 and the thumb are subroutine threaded 05:20:24 the android version had to be indirect threaded 05:20:29 absolutely ZERO choice about that 05:20:34 why is that? 05:21:06 because with subroutine threading and with direct threading the entry point to all words is a 1 liner of code that jumps to the specific handler for that word type 05:21:15 so for example the entry point to a colon definition is a "call nest" 05:21:31 and the return address is the colon definition to be interpreted 05:21:39 well on android you CAN NOT write to code space 05:21:43 you can not execute data space 05:22:02 oh - Android enforces a Harvard model? 05:22:10 so when i allocate a buffer for user code its data 05:22:16 its secure linux 05:22:24 selinux 05:22:40 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 05:22:47 even on x86 you have data execution prevention 05:23:14 do you have to build a new apk to change your dictionary? 05:23:16 in the REAL non android linux versions i just sys mprotect the entire process space to +r +w +x 05:23:26 do not have permissions to do that in android selinux 05:23:52 are you familiar with android dev at all? 05:23:58 you know what assets are etc? 05:24:33 a little bit - i usually write the platform independent part in C++ and then let my team deal with the rest so I hear these terms but don't typically have to deal with them. 05:25:43 i put forth sources under the assets directory. at JNI_ONOAD i auto include the assets/naf/system.f 05:25:47 Guess my question is whether you can develop incrementally in the interpreter like you can with a full hosted forth or do you have to rebuild the apk and redeploy to change core dictionaries? 05:25:54 naf stands for native android forth (not native threading tho) 05:26:05 not YET. 05:26:24 How would you get around selinux to allow that capability? 05:26:36 you cant, not even on a rooted device 05:26:48 SO why the "yet"? :) 05:27:20 to make the android forth interactive im going to add a tcp client to allow you to sort of telnet in to the forth 05:27:44 right now i develop java code that calls the forth library and use printfs to debug lol 05:28:21 fun.... we deal with a lot of JNI stuff ourselves. Java is such complete garbage. 05:29:57 lol jni is horrendous 05:30:03 and i learned it by DOING lol 05:34:51 the complicated part is referencing classes from JNI 05:34:59 copying data to/from etc 05:35:27 the android forth is on hold while i get this one working 05:37:49 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 05:40:32 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 05:52:11 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 05:54:36 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 05:55:43 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 05:59:56 --- quit: Savoyard (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 06:00:57 --- quit: I440r (Remote host closed the connection) 06:14:26 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@cpe-68-203-183-77.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:18:35 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144216016.atnat0025.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 06:19:03 regarding creationism propaganda which was posted here some time ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W96AJ0ChboU 06:24:59 <_spt_> fantazo: what do this have to do with Forth? 06:26:20 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 06:27:21 nothing? 06:28:13 _spt_, nothing really. I'm just not feeling comfortable if people follow a creationism set of beliefs as this leads straight to other inhuman beliefs. and I like this channel. and I don't want to leave it, because I won't considered anymore a part in this channel. 06:28:52 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 06:29:49 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 06:31:27 cool vid. thanks 06:39:25 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:40:44 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 06:53:34 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-201.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:53:34 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 06:57:44 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 07:13:09 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 07:28:30 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 07:41:24 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 08:19:11 --- quit: bluekelp (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 08:22:50 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@2001:470:1:41:49e3:c8c0:a427:e201) joined #forth 08:22:51 --- mode: ChanServ set +v bluekelp 08:47:33 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@vig91-h03-89-84-5-35.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) joined #forth 09:02:36 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-139-75.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 09:08:00 --- quit: Azel (Quit: Azel) 09:20:09 --- quit: Savoyard (Quit: Be back later ...) 09:31:02 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Leaving.) 09:59:33 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 10:08:31 --- quit: scoofy (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 10:11:11 --- quit: tangentstorm (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2) 10:28:07 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 10:50:11 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:08:59 --- join: scoofy (~spirit@catv-89-135-80-2.catv.broadband.hu) joined #forth 11:31:48 --- quit: Savoyard (Quit: Be back later ...) 11:39:29 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-239-150.prtc.net) joined #forth 11:46:09 --- join: Savoyard (~Savoyard@unaffiliated/savoyard) joined #forth 11:46:39 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 11:57:02 --- quit: Savoyard (Quit: Lingo: www.lingoirc.com) 13:20:40 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@2601:9:4f81:acb0:221:6aff:fea4:6db8) joined #forth 13:23:11 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Changing host) 13:23:11 --- join: gabriel_laddel (~user@unaffiliated/gabriel-laddel/x-9909917) joined #forth 13:47:19 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:01:06 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 14:02:14 --- join: spt_1 (~jaat@host-92-30-232-119.as13285.net) joined #forth 14:05:37 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 15:40:02 --- quit: yiyus (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:41:04 --- join: yiyus (1242712427@je.je.je) joined #forth 15:49:58 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:54:31 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 15:55:00 --- quit: spt_1 (Quit: Irssi 0.8.17 http://irssi.org/ - 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