00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.12.24 00:57:51 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 01:04:47 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-179-75.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:11:44 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:12:51 --- join: karswell (~user@87.113.227.45) joined #forth 01:35:29 --- join: ErhardtTheWhite (~quassel@93-43-163-57.ip92.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 01:35:47 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 01:54:23 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 01:56:01 --- quit: MrMobius_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:08:32 --- join: impomatic (~chatzilla@150.179.200.146.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 02:42:01 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-17.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) joined #forth 02:44:38 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 02:45:29 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:45:44 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@46.22.110.168) joined #forth 02:46:17 --- quit: Zarutian (Client Quit) 02:46:44 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 03:15:33 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@host-92-24-239-8.ppp.as43234.net) joined #forth 03:15:33 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 03:15:33 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 03:29:51 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:42:49 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 03:47:29 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 03:49:48 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:55:49 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 03:55:56 --- join: impomatic (~chatzilla@87.114.188.128) joined #forth 04:03:23 --- quit: gabriel_laddel (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 04:07:16 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@87.113.192.135) joined #forth 04:08:43 --- join: ASau (~user@46.115.17.87) joined #forth 04:08:57 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 04:09:09 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 04:37:22 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 04:49:24 --- quit: irsol (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 04:50:54 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:54:02 --- join: irsol (~irsol@unaffiliated/contempt) joined #forth 05:31:23 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 05:55:27 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 06:02:27 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 06:06:19 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: Irssi 0.8.17 http://irssi.org/ - gone) 06:15:30 ttmrichter, lol true story :) but try telling that to anyone hiring non degreed engineers :P 06:18:16 I440r: Which true story? 06:29:26 --- quit: darkf (Quit: Leaving) 06:31:07 --- quit: vanila (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:34:13 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 06:40:18 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 06:46:52 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 06:49:14 --- quit: carc (Quit: QUIT) 06:50:14 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 07:03:47 --- join: vanila (~vanila@unaffiliated/vanila) joined #forth 07:15:45 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.114.136.66) joined #forth 07:18:48 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 07:41:44 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-179-75.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 08:08:04 * proteusguy pays no attention to degrees when hiring developers. 08:50:07 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-17.dsl.dynamic.fusionbroadband.com) joined #forth 08:56:17 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 09:06:06 --- join: MrMobius_ (~MrMobius@c-71-206-218-187.hsd1.wv.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:19:17 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 10:12:44 --- quit: MrMobius_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:48:11 --- join: _spt_ (~jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 11:10:18 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 11:11:24 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.136.66) joined #forth 12:09:36 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 12:43:38 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 13:34:35 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@204.11.226.50.static.etheric.net) joined #forth 13:57:29 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:02:31 about engineers 14:03:08 ttmrichter, u w2ere saying degreed engineers can produce crap as good as anyone :) 14:03:12 or better 14:30:04 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:43:22 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-17.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 14:43:22 --- mode: ChanServ set +v proteusguy 15:23:58 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-238-22.prtc.net) joined #forth 15:56:54 --- quit: vanila (Quit: Leaving) 16:24:55 Merry Christmas FORTHers! :-) 16:35:14 Happy Grav-mass back at ya 16:37:26 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: Irssi 0.8.17 http://irssi.org/ - gone) 16:54:49 ho ho ho! 17:41:18 --- join: MrMobius_ (~MrMobius@c-71-206-218-187.hsd1.wv.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:48:02 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 18:03:00 --- quit: MrMobius_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:13:36 --- quit: klltkr (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 18:13:51 --- join: klltkr (~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr) joined #forth 18:32:34 --- nick: nisstyre -> nisscrooge 18:35:22 --- join: darkf (~darkf___@unaffiliated/darkf) joined #forth 19:34:53 marry xmas for sure! 19:39:00 but i am not christian 19:40:58 i am so i still wish you a merry xmas 19:41:15 i was going to say "well you should be!" lol 19:42:02 yunfan: Pretend you are and tell those heretics to fuck off then. 19:43:04 i would say you should watch your language 19:43:37 hate all you want but tone down the swearing 19:48:23 I440r: ASau i wont accept that, and yet i wont say bad words for people send good wish to me 19:51:43 yeah I think the F bomb is a bit much in this context 19:52:49 its interesting that in china, we have billions of people celebrate this day 19:53:55 while most of them are not belive in god or other :] 20:02:25 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144219217.atnat0028.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 20:02:37 --- join: saml_ (~saml@cpe-24-102-97-97.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:08:27 It's the same as "there's no reason not to drink [vodka]." 20:09:06 what is the conversation topic? 20:18:15 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:18:40 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 20:19:07 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144219217.atnat0028.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 20:22:23 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 20:52:51 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 20:59:10 ASau being an ass. Again. 21:02:56 what was the content of it? 21:03:49 again some definitions of forth or standard or comparision with a "real language" (like common lisp)? 21:04:15 I would like some "ASau Bingo". 21:06:49 No, this time just being as ass about Christians and Christmas. 21:11:31 ok. christmas time then. atleast I'm not offended today. but still being an ass about religions isn't nice either. 21:12:32 Being an ass about anything isn't really nice. 21:12:42 I don't think religion gets a special pass or fail here. 21:13:24 is being an ass about conforming to say ethical / moral standards like human rights, not nice? 21:13:43 ok serious question 21:14:00 is referring to "Christian mythology" offensive in and of itself? 21:14:05 sometimes maybe being not nice is by some considered a "good action" 21:14:30 DocPlatypus: No. 21:14:42 It can by circumstance be offensive, though. 21:14:48 well, I can't say anything about that, as I wasn't here when he wrote that. 21:14:50 ok 21:14:58 I've seen that used by some atheists/humanists 21:15:35 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:15:37 Yes. And when they use it they're often using it to offend. Being asses, in short. There's a reason why I don't get involved with organized atheism. :) 21:26:07 ttmrichter, some organized atheists would now maybe say, that you are not helping the "moral cause" of it by not participating. or something like that. 21:27:39 And I would reply "that's why I'm not with organized atheism". Because they treat it as a moral cause. 21:29:03 ttmrichter, that would be the moment, where I go to my fridge, get a beer and watch the flamewar in calm peace. :-] 21:29:41 Meh. Wouldn't be a flame war because I'd just resort to mockery until the guy shuts up. 21:30:31 :-) 21:33:38 so what was the latest cool forth issue thing going on, before the topic went to "and now for something totally different!" 21:35:34 at is organized atheism? 21:36:36 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 21:39:30 yunfan, what? 21:40:27 what is you say `organized atheism`? 21:41:26 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Excess Flood) 21:41:53 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@c-76-31-212-235.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:43:51 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 21:44:28 organized atheism is about religion hate 21:44:36 i.e. its about hate 21:45:16 I wouldn't say that 21:45:34 to me, it's about logic winning out over belief in some fiction of a deity 21:45:41 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-168-192.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 21:48:14 And its central tactic is attacking people. That pretty much summarizes hate. 21:48:28 DocPlatypus, go look on youtube for a video called "the privelidged planet" its scientific not religious but it shoots down alot of atheist logic 21:48:52 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 21:49:03 DocPlatypus, another good one if you can find it is "where does the evedence lead" 21:50:14 thers one good point in there that i can remember off hand, its about irreducable complexity and the bacetia flagellum motor. you CANNOT evolve this motoor with tiral and error. remove any component and the motor does not work 21:50:32 and it IS a motor and if you study it you will see it was DESIGNED 21:50:35 not "evolved" 21:51:21 they give a mouse trap as a good example of irreducable complexity. remove any one of the very simple components of the mouse trap and the entire thing fails 21:51:38 you look at a mouse trap and you dont say "this evolved" 21:52:09 I440r, are you really believing in creationism? 21:52:27 fantazo, go watch that video i mentioned and ask me again 21:52:39 fantazo: as a programmer , i used to think that the whole universe is just a virtual machine 21:52:47 and the light speed is just the bus speed 21:52:53 Sorry, that argument is debunked so many times over it's comical when I see it put forth seriously. 21:53:17 "God of the gaps" is a really unpersuasive argument because those gaps get closer and closer all the time. 21:54:27 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdBJt6sdDfI 21:54:51 Throw up all the YouTube videos you like. I'll still laugh. Sorry. 21:55:02 I said I avoid organized atheism. Not that I avoid atheism. 21:55:34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff-Gp194XUU <--- this is on topic for the date :) 21:55:35 I440r, have you actually read about that movie you are promoting there? that was done by people from the intelligent design movement. 21:55:43 i have the dvd 21:55:44 and honestly I don't care what's in the video 21:55:54 you want me to believe in a god, prove there is a god 21:56:09 don't show me bacteria flagellum and say this had to have been made by a god 21:56:09 That pretty much summarizes it, yes. 21:56:20 the proof is all around you if you simply take the time to look 21:56:23 ttmrichter: what about my vm theory? 21:56:31 No. The proof is not around you. 21:56:36 I440r: I have taken the time to look. it isn't there. 21:56:38 Argument from ignorance is not proof. It is fallacy. 21:56:42 ttmrichter: think of if we are all just npc in a huge GAME like GTA 21:57:37 yunfan: I have one tool I use to slice through those kinds of speculations: "what, materially, would change in my life if this speculation were true?". If the answer is "nothing whatsoever" then I ignore it and move on. 21:58:01 We could also just be the snot sprayed out by the Great Sneeze of the Arkleseizure. 21:58:20 It's equally meaningless a form of speculation. 21:58:32 ttmrichter: you might heard of Decare 21:58:53 you are taking the time to ignore some good evidence i just referenced 21:59:09 No, I'm ignoring videos from unsourced fanatics. 21:59:13 and his 'Brain in a vat' 21:59:15 any video from illustria media 21:59:17 Show me peer-review. 21:59:28 Show me something other than "God of the gaps". 21:59:30 wath with an open mind then come back and tell me it was all bunk 21:59:47 No. I have better things to waste my time on. 21:59:59 Seriously, God of the gaps was debunked BY CHRISTIANS in the '50s. 22:00:14 You're 60 years behind the times with it. 22:01:15 we watched probably all bill nye vs. that-guy-from-the-creationism-museum, so no. I don't watch stuff, which is heavily debunked, the only place on this earth where creationism is rising is the united states of america. 22:01:41 Here's a very basic concept: if there's a God who can literally do anything, he can prove his existence trivially. 22:01:43 He doesn't. 22:02:04 Ergo: 1. He's an ass and doesn't deserve recognition and/or worship. 2. He doesn't exist. 22:02:44 and else you never can prove or disprove god. 22:05:16 Basically the burden of proof is on the positive claimant, and the more grandiose the claim, the more solid the proof needs to be. 22:05:20 creationism fails, because it gets the facts wrong. it isn't scientifically useful. 22:05:50 If you post the existence of an absolute, omnipotent, omnipresent being, that's a pretty grandiose claim. You'd need some pretty huge proof to back it up. 22:05:58 ttmrichter, that would be nice, if people who adhere to that rigor. 22:06:01 And what "proof" do we get? God of the gaps. 22:07:09 who disappears after more gaps are re-solved. 22:07:14 Here's a better proof that this omnipotent being could use that would be better than "God of the gaps": rearrange all the stars in the sky to say "Dear Earth, I exist, love God." Being omnipotent he could have that message look to everybody like it's in their native language. 22:07:29 fantazo: That is, in fact, the big flaw in God of the Gaps. The gaps get closer. 22:08:20 ttmrichter, and what did I say? 22:08:26 I remember watching all the "we don't know of an intermediate between X and Z in the fossil record, so there's no evolution". Then they find Y in between. So it's "nothing between X and Y". So they find A. Then B. Then C. And so on. 22:08:42 Is the fossil record complete? Hell no. It can't be. 22:08:54 But every time someone says "we can't find X", they find X. 22:09:56 You see similar problems in fields like AI. 22:10:18 and fossils records are more of a luck, than of certainty. 22:10:19 "Computers will never do X." Computers do X. "Computers will never do Y." Computers do Y. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. 22:10:25 Right. 22:10:39 It's amazing that ANYTHING has survived over millions of years in recognizable form. 22:11:13 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:12:10 --- quit: nisscrooge (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 22:13:59 and maybe in some very long time we could get there where we want to be with AI. or not, I'm not really sure if that "project" is really a good idea, or more of a bright idea as developing atomic weapons. 22:14:36 I *do* think that strong-AI proponents grossly underestimate the complexity and difficulty of the task before them. 22:14:39 --- join: nisscrooge (~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com) joined #forth 22:14:50 I mean seriously, we don't actually even know what intelligence *IS* yet. 22:15:03 We don't know how the brain works. 22:15:14 Last I checked we can't even model one human neuron completely yet. 22:15:37 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 22:15:46 in the end it all matters what people really want to do with the technology. and I'm scared that this part is gnastly ignored, which has brought us huge problems and will bring us much more problems if we continue on the road of blissful ignorance. 22:16:32 ttmrichter, I really wonder why that is. 22:16:51 --- nick: nisscrooge -> nisstyre 22:17:01 --- quit: nisstyre (Changing host) 22:17:01 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:17:07 --- nick: nisstyre -> nisscrooge 22:17:42 fantazo: Because even a neuron is fantastically complicated. 22:17:49 And we lack the tools to see it running live. 22:18:02 So we can only infer, badly, with inadequate information, what goes on inside. 22:22:35 we are the blind people with sticks who maybe poke at some truths. 22:25:38 it is fascinating that we aren't anymore in the dark ages. were we found killing witches and magicians a nice hobby. 22:25:54 s/were/where 22:26:54 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 22:27:46 Sure we do. 22:27:58 We just call them "Muslim extremists" or the like. 22:28:06 The favourite hobby of humanity is demonizing humanity. 22:28:48 Which is why organized atheism is a bad thing for me. 22:29:05 Once you get a group of primates together, they find some way to demonize the Other. 22:29:05 ttmrichter, true. 22:29:40 Look at all the "rational" atheists like that Sam Harris guy who swallow the whole "all Muslims are evil" twaddle. 22:30:00 They're just as irrationally filled with hate as the more ludicrously religious of the world. 22:31:15 tangentstorm, agreed 22:33:09 fantazo: in that case, i changed my mind. :) 22:33:38 fantazo, in what case? 22:33:42 eh.. 22:33:47 tangentstorm, in what case? 22:36:41 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 22:39:14 Christmas = Peace on Earth, Goodwill towards man. Hopefully we can all believe that's something worth striving for and play nice. 22:48:02 was just 22:48:14 joking. i think you pinged me by accident. :) 23:15:41 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:16:21 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 23:24:53 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:27:02 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 23:35:35 --- quit: samrat (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:36:08 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:38:14 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 23:43:08 --- quit: nisscrooge (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.12.24