00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.12.01 00:02:22 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:16:00 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-11-97-150.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 01:05:11 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@188.159.53.9) joined #forth 01:12:36 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.130.167) joined #forth 01:18:23 --- join: Quozl`_ (~quozl@antitheft.laptop.org) joined #forth 01:19:18 --- quit: Quozl` (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 01:35:23 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 01:49:12 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-8-222-164.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:03:11 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:38:02 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 02:46:55 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@93-43-163-57.ip92.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 03:08:13 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-214-225.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 03:16:59 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 03:23:43 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-58-11-97-150.revip2.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 03:57:43 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 04:38:05 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 04:52:59 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 04:54:48 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 04:55:05 --- join: karswell` (~user@87.114.135.1) joined #forth 04:55:22 --- quit: malyn_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:55:45 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 05:16:24 --- join: samrat (~samrat@123.236.183.195) joined #forth 05:21:44 --- quit: cataska (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 05:22:32 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 06:10:12 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@97-83-152-151.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) joined #forth 06:35:52 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-141.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 06:45:37 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 07:28:53 which syntax in the following two do you prefer ??? --> http://img.vim-cn.com/f2/e81f57b00d0822816615f9005481f12ae2483a.png 07:38:47 left one. 07:38:52 :) 07:39:16 The one that isn't hosted by CloudFail so I can actually see it. 07:40:00 ttmrichter: give me a link please 07:40:50 xyh: Your link: http://img.vim-cn.com/f2/e81f57b00d0822816615f9005481f12ae2483a.png 07:40:59 Puts me to CloudFail's broken CAPTCHA. 07:41:07 I mean which host do you use ? 07:41:15 I'm ... confused. 07:41:20 What are you talking about? 07:41:25 I'm using my ISP. 07:41:42 xyh, what is this stuff? 07:42:06 Generally, xyh, avoid the use of CloudFail. 07:42:11 It's utterly broken at every level. 07:42:24 If you *MUST* use a CDN, akamai (sp?) is far more reliable and stable. 07:43:13 proteusguy: this is [or might be] a graph-processing backend :) 07:44:22 ttmrichter: I ll post it again, use another site 07:45:07 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@67.164.37.196) joined #forth 07:46:48 http://postimg.org/image/4b3rjc6sl/ 07:50:26 They're roughly equivalent, but the one on the left requires less pinky-stretching for shift keys. 07:58:50 for syntax, easy to input is also a matter !!! I hadn't see this fact before. [maybe for I input the "hard to input" Chinese Chars so often ... 07:59:48 I hope the left YAML-like syntax is actually parse-able 08:00:43 starting with syntax and then working backwards to see if it's decidable is problematic 08:00:47 that's how ruby happens 08:05:36 RodgerTheGreat: I think my syntax is not as fancy, just try to move YAML-blocks into language compiler [and I wish it be better than YAML 08:06:36 YAML is also pretty damned nasty to parse. 08:07:30 --- join: joneshf (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 08:07:33 also yaml has been responsible for like a dozen hilariously nasty security vulnerabilities in ruby on rails 08:08:26 this doesn't necessarily mean xyh is doomed 08:08:39 but yaml's got problems 08:12:20 RodgerTheGreat: I pretty like YAML. so do you know some criticisms I can learn from ?? a link will be ok :) 08:13:52 RodgerTheGreat: The YAML flaw in Ruby was the Ruby implementation's fault, not YAML. I mean I despise YAML as much as the next guy, but that problem was a Ruby community one. 08:14:25 If the Ruby community wrote an ASN.1 environment with that kind of lackadaisical approach to basic tenets of development they'd have been owned just as easily and thoroughly. 08:15:24 I think that as long as the tabs-versus-spaces debate rages on whitespace-delimited syntax is a really bad idea 08:15:54 so much potential for literally invisible mistakes 08:16:07 and terrible copy-paste related errors 08:16:35 whether it's taking examples from some website or rearranging data in your own files 08:19:15 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 08:22:33 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 08:24:27 so only tabs-versus-spaces is the main problem ? 08:26:16 I also think it has an unnecessary number of degrees of freedom. There are lots of edge cases and alternate syntaxes for convenience 08:26:21 "convenience" 08:26:36 preserving newlines adds a number of wrinkles 08:27:43 unquoted strings has potential for ambiguity 08:29:06 JSON has underspecified semantics but for the most part there is exactly one way to express a given data structure. For an interchange format that is very desirable 08:31:50 --- quit: samrat (Quit: [Textual IRC Client: http://www.textualapp.com/]) 08:34:34 I see, but still, if I do a design, I ll at least use two ways to express list-like data. and I ll make it much more simple then yaml. 08:35:12 if you keep it simple you can avoid many of the pitfalls of actual YAML 08:37:35 the most important thing to me is to make it easy to read, so it must be simple [maybe I ll try to make the spec under 500 english words :P to prove it is simple 08:37:56 or 500 is still too many ? 08:49:19 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@vig91-h03-89-84-5-35.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr) joined #forth 09:21:02 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 10:18:24 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 10:24:00 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 10:33:24 --- quit: joneshf (Remote host closed the connection) 10:36:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 10:37:23 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@67.164.37.196) joined #forth 10:41:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 10:44:36 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@67.164.37.196) joined #forth 11:35:08 --- quit: rixard (Quit: rixard) 12:04:40 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Leaving.) 12:16:11 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 12:16:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@67.164.37.196) joined #forth 12:21:19 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:41:30 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:48:16 --- join: Mat4 (~claude@ip5b407d3b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de) joined #forth 12:48:21 hello 13:06:09 --- join: true-grue_ (~grue@95-26-80-109.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 13:08:34 --- quit: true-grue (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 13:14:19 --- join: mnemnion_ (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:14:21 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:15:50 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 13:24:51 --- join: nox_ (sid3872@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hmhehpcvzhrjcvfe) joined #forth 13:26:05 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 13:37:15 --- quit: nighty^_ (*.net *.split) 13:37:16 --- quit: carc (*.net *.split) 13:37:16 --- quit: nox (*.net *.split) 13:38:09 --- nick: nox_ -> nox 13:41:19 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:41:47 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:57:48 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 13:58:16 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:59:44 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.130.192.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 13:59:56 hello :) 14:01:12 hi 14:01:23 hello rodger :) 14:01:27 and hello Mat4 14:01:47 what's the latest? 14:02:03 mostly tinkering with K 14:02:15 vaguely thinking about what it would take to write an implementation in forth 14:02:28 what's 'k'? 14:02:38 an array programming language; a relative of APL and J 14:02:44 okay 14:02:59 hi RodgerTheGreat and mayuresh 14:03:12 hello mat4 14:03:15 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:03:48 what sorts of things are you up to mayuresh 14:04:11 if I remembered correctly someone written an APL oriented library in Forth 14:04:17 i just got out of a major mess in my personal life 14:04:25 that had interrupted my self-training for forth 14:04:34 so am now returning, in a way ... ;) 14:05:00 well cleaning messes up sounds good 14:05:11 yeah 14:05:19 Mat4: the book "Scientific Forth" discusses some related ideas 14:07:04 i used to hang around over here before the mess 14:07:11 and have asked similar questions before 14:07:15 will be asking them again 14:07:23 pardon the repitition. 14:07:37 I haven't been around this channel in a while 14:07:52 i am a non-cs non-ee guy 14:08:05 what would be the best way to start off with learning forth? 14:08:26 i happened to stumble upon "forth application techniques" on amazon.com 14:08:45 and i got myself a copy of the evaluation version of swiftforth 14:08:50 should i be good to go? 14:08:58 that's not a bad way to start 14:09:13 or should i be training for "machine organization" first? 14:09:24 Starting Forth is usually the go-to book for total beginners to the language and it can be obtained online for free 14:09:44 oh, yes, i saw the modified version on the forth.com website 14:10:06 another good intro is this: http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm 14:10:37 Thinking Forth is definitely worth reading, but you'll get more out of it if you already know some forth first 14:10:49 okay 14:13:07 do you have something in particular you want to make with forth or does it just sound fun to tinker with 14:16:08 i have realized that i have had enough of the high level programming stuff 14:16:14 want to understand the machine better 14:16:32 during my excursions through various topics, landed upon forth 14:16:35 forth is a good language for that 14:16:47 and fell in love with the fact that it's a thin layer between the machine and me 14:17:12 if you really want to learn everything top to bottom you could get a logic simulator and build a little forth machine from gates 14:17:27 or you could do what I did and make a little VM and a forth that targets it 14:17:43 whoa, that sounds beyond me without structured training 14:17:51 i have no idea about electronics 14:18:10 you don't have to know electronics to understand gates 14:18:15 okay 14:18:22 beauty of logic gates is it doesn't matter what they're made of 14:18:34 any particular material you could suggest i should work through? 14:18:59 I think reading those forth books and documents we discussed is a good first start 14:19:07 learn forth and then you can probe deeper 14:19:11 okay 14:19:32 i just found this book on "machine organization" by randall hyde 14:19:43 looks good "prima-facie" 14:19:55 may i solicit your views/opinion about the same? 14:20:58 also studying a recent book about assembler programming can be advantageous 14:21:06 dang 14:21:13 now i am even more scared 14:21:21 i have no idea about assembler 14:21:28 looking up on amazon.com 14:21:49 okay, there's a book on "linux assembler programming for 64-bit systems" 14:22:02 assemblers are just tools which let you express machine code and data in a form the computer directly understands 14:22:03 let me see how that is on the inside 14:22:34 an assembler is a direct bridge to the machine 14:22:51 in many ways you can think of forth as being a particularly powerful and flexible assembler 14:22:52 you mean, even thinner than forth! 14:23:02 oh, okay 14:23:05 now i get it 14:23:11 about the same level of abstraction really 14:23:23 but I think forth is much nicer to use than most assemblers 14:23:31 indeed 14:24:05 oh, okay, with forth i can communicate with the hardware without being machine like 14:25:45 it is also more sophisticated because you can build up every abstraction level you want simply by extending the language itself 14:26:13 yeah, that sounds a lot like reflection 14:26:31 that would be fun to use with "a-i" related projects 14:26:37 using very little compute resources 14:26:53 the idea in forth is you basically start with a really simple extremely low level language and then you build it up to add the features you need to write your application 14:27:19 umnn, now that sounds like a "dsl" toolkit 14:27:47 kinda 14:28:04 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Ave atque vale) 14:28:40 both viewpoints are related I would say 14:29:07 forth metaprogramming works very differently than in most other languages 14:29:13 okay 14:29:56 same kind of power as metaprogramming in lisp, totally different approach to get there. simpler in some ways, more complicated in other ways. 14:30:39 okay 14:32:11 it's actually really interesting to compare lisp and forth to one another; in many ways they're two sides of the same coin. Lisp is more conceptually pure, but forth is simpler in implementation. 14:33:14 hmnn, now it's getting clearer 14:33:40 it's like, forth is a functional assembly language :) 14:34:02 a little bit, when you use it in a disciplined way 14:34:08 okay 14:34:12 alrighty 14:34:14 i gotta go 14:34:24 thanks for the information rodger and mat4 14:34:33 but, it's like 0400 out here 14:34:46 gotta sleep a while before day breaks. :) 14:34:58 thanks again 14:35:12 no prob 14:35:16 ciao 14:35:20 and if "asau" is around, tell him it's okay to be the bastard child of "forth". ;) 14:35:42 oh man don't even start getting that guy wound up 14:35:48 :D 14:35:52 later then 14:36:00 see you all tomorrow ... 14:36:02 bye 14:36:09 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: off to sleep) 14:36:40 get some sleep 14:36:52 --- part: Mat4 left #forth 14:46:20 --- quit: true-grue_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:49:26 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 14:54:32 --- nick: karswell` -> karswell 15:35:51 --- join: Zarutian (~Adium@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 15:58:53 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:03:14 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 16:13:09 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:13:58 --- quit: mnemnion (Client Quit) 16:50:30 --- quit: ggherdov` (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16:53:27 --- join: ggherdov` (sid11402@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-chlfnkegueisidfk) joined #forth 17:05:37 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-2-207.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:03:49 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Leaving.) 19:13:06 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 19:20:59 --- join: protist (~javery@196.252.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 20:04:01 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:05:10 --- join: karswell (~user@87.114.135.1) joined #forth 20:23:24 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 20:46:56 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.41.114) joined #forth 20:47:30 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 22:02:21 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 23:02:46 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 23:18:07 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:54:32 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@84.241.8.144) joined #forth 23:56:10 --- quit: Bahman (Remote host closed the connection) 23:56:20 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@84.241.8.144) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.12.01