00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.11.27 00:00:04 Well here we hit the problems, though. 00:00:18 Because USB 3.0 is such a clusterfuck, we rely on interface chipsets. 00:00:40 And the people making USB interface chipsets are in direct competition with FPGA vendors for who can be the most retardedly secretive. 00:01:03 So I submit that it's pretty much impossible to actually be USB 3.0 compliant in a way that permits interoperation. 00:01:12 all of usb is a horror, from the whacky gyrations I read of - AND they want to license id's for hefty change. It's not worthwhile for small users 00:01:19 Yep. 00:01:29 USB 1.n was tolerable. Barely. 00:01:33 2.0 was a nightmare. 00:01:39 3.0 is impossible. Literally impossible. 00:02:11 And if there's a 4.0, it will be laughed at in history as an example of why "standard" does not mean "usable". 00:02:32 even the documents talking about the ids and compiling the tables and that shit were just plain butt-ugly 00:03:08 sooo.. anyone wanna' buy a half-dozen pic24's? ;-) 00:07:56 actually, it'd be nice to even see if they work - but I ain't buying ANOTHER blower to learn it too refuses to work on the 24's 00:08:14 fastforth is said to work on them. 00:09:16 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 00:09:31 I can think of things I'd rather do than use PIC24s. Poking my eyeball out with a spork is up there. 00:11:02 indeed 00:13:19 Is it unfair to say that the 8-bit PIC world is basically the PHP of embedded hardware? Unfair to PHP I mean... 00:13:55 no idea, my EE buddy swore by them.. So, I bought suggested.. Found the blower would not work on them, and he moved on to ARM's 00:14:30 it seems fair to say folks love the price and size and packages 00:15:46 ttmrichter: i have 6 usb device , only 2 works under usb3 speed 00:15:59 the other 4 just got a 20M/S write 00:16:08 but still quicker than those usb2.0 :] 00:17:13 My problem isn't SPEED. 00:17:17 My problem is STABILITY. 00:17:37 I lost about 140GB of data to USB 3.0 until I realized where the problem was. 00:17:55 Once I shifted the disks to using my (only) USB 2.0 port the problems vanished. 00:30:43 ttmrichter: details? should I be leery of buying a USB 3.0 computer yet? 00:30:52 because here is the deal 00:30:55 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 00:31:07 this system, I got in 2011 not long before USB 3.0 came out 00:31:12 and it's a USB 2.0 box 00:31:50 my latest drive has a USB 3.0 cable with it. should I consider buying a USB 2.0 cable forcing it to use USB 2.0 while I can? 00:32:05 (if I need to plug into a box with only USB 3.0 ports available) 00:32:36 and what OS did this happen under? 00:35:57 same connectors/cable, afaik - and they autoadjust to lower speeds as necessary 00:36:38 no, USB 3.0 uses additional pins 00:36:49 ahhhhhh 00:36:54 if you use a USB 3.0 cable to plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 3.0 port, all the pins connect. 00:37:14 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@li611-52.members.linode.com) joined #forth 00:37:17 you can use a USB 3.0 cable to plug a USB 3.0 device into a USB 2.0 port, but you only get four connecting pins. 00:37:37 cool.. So.. if they call it a usb3 device, and give you a 2.0 cable, yer never gonna' know unless you count pins or buy another cable ;-) 00:37:37 USB 2.0 devices will only have a USB 2.0 cable and cannot accept a USB 3.0 cable. 00:37:49 ahh 00:38:04 DocPlatypus: If you're using Linux you're going to be fucked by USB 3.0 unless you're very lucky and have EXACTLY the same hardware as one of the kernel devs. 00:38:09 Good To Know.. I can avoid that easy 00:38:15 the device-side connectors for USB 3.0 are different. a USB 2.0 cable will fit the part of the pins it fits and work fine 00:38:41 And yes, you can use USB 2.0 cables in USB 3.0 kit. It will degrade gracefully. Except when it doesn't. 00:38:52 My USB 3.0 disks will not work with USB 2.0 cables. 00:38:54 ...so there are times it doesn't? 00:39:05 But they do work with being stuck into a USB 2.0 port. 00:39:10 It's very weird. 00:39:23 I really, really, really regret getting any USB 3.0 kit at all. 00:39:29 that should not happen. Electrically, it's the same connections or lack thereof. 00:39:32 (Not that you have a choice these days when buying laptops.) 00:39:54 DocPlatypus: What "should not happen" vs. what "happens" is often quite different. 00:40:20 In theory theory matches practice. In practice... 00:40:56 ok. well I got my mom's phone with a device-side USB 3.0 connector (not sure what they are properly called right now) to charge with a USB 2.0 charging cable 00:41:13 I did not try to run data over that connection though 00:41:35 ttmrichter: why you lost suck more data ? 00:41:40 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.17.236) joined #forth 00:42:08 you know this happened when USB 1.x first came out and then when USB 2.0 came out... 00:42:18 the free software OSes got the shaft for quite a while 00:42:21 yunfan: Because it randomly disconnected during file operations. 00:42:40 DocPlatypus: What irritates me is there was a lot of crowing about "LINUX IS THE FIRST OS TO SUPPORT USB3.0!" 00:42:40 ttmrichter: but this cant got you lost such huge data 00:42:47 ttmrichter: was data integrity okay for what transferred pre-disconnect? 00:43:02 ttmrichter: s/OS/OS KERNEL/ but yeah 00:43:11 DocPlatypus: Hard to say. HUGE buffers were involved. 00:43:28 It *looks* like what was actually physically transferred made it intact. 00:43:33 I have data corrupt sometimes on this system and I am not sure what is causing it because the power supply is almost brand new 00:44:01 but for stuff I can't afford to lose... I have gotten to where I copy then sha1sum every file on both ends 00:44:01 But since these transfers were backups (!), I'd basically flooded my buffers. Then the disk disappears for a moment. 00:44:02 ttmrichter: i guess it happened erased some super node info which indicated some nodes are used 00:44:20 yunfan: No, it was repeated failures of backups without me noticing how much damage was being done each time. 00:44:27 ttmrichter: then next time you write new files to that device, it will reuse those *used* node for storaging 00:44:34 and you got data lost 00:44:49 So I lost 140GB over about three weeks of daily backups. 00:44:59 aha, 00:45:08 devices disappearing is very bad juju 00:45:17 DocPlatypus: Yep. 00:45:20 VERY bad juju. 00:45:21 i think you got the bad mcu and flash cheep :] 00:45:34 in china, there're so many black disk 00:45:36 This is my notebook system. 00:45:38 I had a 16GB USB flash drive up and disappear when I accessed my webcam hooked up by the same hub earlier today. 00:45:39 you know what i mean 00:45:43 I was *not* thrilled. 00:45:54 luckily, it was no big deal, I wasn't accessing it 00:46:05 but if I was? shit could have really hit the fan 00:46:13 Anyway, I will not be buying any more USB 3.0 kit. 00:46:30 I'll be replacing my hubs with USB 2.0 hubs and my drive enclosures with USB 2.0 enclosures. 00:46:39 At this point USB 3.0 is dead to me. 00:46:49 It's still coughing up blood because I've got a lot of kit to replace. 00:46:56 But its days in my system are numbered. 00:47:21 I definitely feel the lack of bandwidth when I boot from a USB 2.0 device 00:47:48 ttmrichter: you're lucky for not meeting those black disk of usb2.0 00:47:52 but knowing if I had USB 3.0 devices and ports, I'd have to deal with possible disappearing devices and $deity knows what else... I guess now it will not be as bad 00:48:04 black disk...? 00:48:17 Me, I wish I had eSATA again. :( 00:48:24 Never had a problem with eSATA in my old notebook. 00:48:30 eSATA showed promise, dare I say it 00:48:33 DocPlatypus: someone flush the mcu's firmware, make it looks like other factory's or huge storage quato 00:48:35 is it just no longer being made? 00:48:49 USB 3.0 was the latest hotness. 00:48:56 It's hard to find a new computer with eSATA ports. 00:49:13 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.139.197) joined #forth 00:49:23 DocPlatypus: you could buy a 16G flash disk , and when you insert that disk to computer , it shows it has 16G, but you cant really store that 00:49:44 Yeah, I hit those way back when, back when you measured in MB. 00:49:54 ttmrichter: i am more interesting of usb3.0 power supply 00:49:59 100w :] 00:49:59 oh, that shit 00:50:22 yeah, I remember reading about that 00:50:28 512MB flash disk that was really 64MB with the top four address pins soldered together. 00:50:37 DocPlatypus: in china , its so popular :] 00:50:58 Quick solution: test the drive in place. I developed a little program that was able to quickly test for that specific scam. 00:50:58 also they will recycle the old flash chip 00:51:06 and re-made a new flash drive 00:51:22 then modify the mcu's firmware, makes it looks like a new one 00:51:25 That is far more insidious. 00:51:40 this of course might cause those problem ttmrichter has met 00:51:40 Very hard to protect against that short of going only to reputable sellers. 00:51:58 Buying from street vendors is a sucker's game when it comes to tech. :) 00:52:26 ttmrichter: but both good buy and bad guy are in shenzheng :] 00:52:43 you cant differency them 00:52:53 devices are cheap enough now that I only need to buy from Walgreens, Target (less so now because they only stock crappy brands), Best Buy, etc 00:53:24 Lexar and Emtec I have learned to avoid after having one of each completely shit its pants 00:53:38 "No medium inserted" type errors 00:53:38 DocPlatypus: of course device is cheap for you guys in westen country , especially westen programmer 00:53:48 they have a high salary :] 00:53:54 pfft 00:54:26 every time i saw those testing video for gun shot ipad or nokia's phone 00:54:27 even a cook can afford a 2T or 4T device at LEAST once a year. That's a shitload of movies or TV 00:54:46 i remind myself its only hundred local currency at their country 00:54:46 I'm making do with a 1T drive bought from Fingerhut 00:55:00 meaning I almost certainly overpaid for it 00:55:07 yunfan, lots of US devs gotta pinch pennies too. Growing up a blank floppy cost $4.50 and my weekly allowance was $5! Had to be super frugal to do anything. 00:55:18 I grabbed a 2T from bestbuy - Mybook - almost 4 years back, and I STILL got half a drive left 00:55:58 proteusguy: but that time has gone, enjoy the new time 00:56:47 yunfan, yes true but there are others starting off same as I did in school. things lot more affordable now luckily. 00:56:54 I am looking at either a Toshiba 2T drive, or a WD Mybook 3T 00:57:07 the latter is ungodly expensive per byte 00:57:14 the WD has been really good to me 00:58:00 actually iPad is a pretty good $300-$400 or so 00:58:04 at least 00:58:15 proteusguy: i am who the *others* you are talked 00:58:16 of course, when it DOES fail.. I'll loose 4 years of tv and movies I enjoy - AND all my backedup code 00:58:22 not sure about Nokia phones 00:58:28 but decent phones are still a good $200-$300 or so 00:58:47 PoppaVic: hopefully you'll have copied to a new device by then 00:58:49 well like indian programmer, thanks this lucky job got me to people who can afford a iphone :[ 00:58:57 yeah, DocPlatypus - we hope 00:59:10 btw, i actually like programming not because its high pay 01:00:00 PoppaVic: welcom to china, here we only hold the name list of your movie wanted 01:00:25 pfft.. china. Pass. 01:00:34 PoppaVic: you dont need to worry about disk collapse, you could found a copy from p2p network :] 01:00:47 in blueray or other hd format 01:01:03 so just keep the movie's name in your social network site 01:03:40 Friend of mine made a few blog posts about the counterfeit chip biz in China. He's become a bit of an expert in sourcing good stuff & bad out of China. http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=208 01:04:39 so?> 01:05:19 bbl 01:05:23 anyway, movie is over and it's cold.. Nighty-night 01:05:36 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Quit: Leaving) 01:06:21 but i think i could afford netflix's month fee if they accept my request 01:06:30 currently they dont accept my location 01:09:56 --- quit: PoppaVic (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 01:35:54 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-27-213-201.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:53:43 I pirate because I can't get legit stuff here. 01:53:53 So why pay for pirated stuff when I can just pirate directly? 03:53:14 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@2001:858:5:3a41:99d8:b33b:fce0:c986) joined #forth 04:25:56 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 04:26:12 --- quit: samrat (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 04:35:14 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-3-251.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 04:40:56 --- quit: saml_ (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 04:49:57 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 04:54:00 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-3-251.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 05:10:51 --- quit: 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#forth 14:43:42 hello there 14:44:03 hi 14:44:42 --- part: Mat4 left #forth 14:50:12 --- quit: saml_ (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 15:06:57 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:45:11 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 16:07:41 --- quit: nighty-_ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 16:22:58 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 16:43:51 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 18:18:22 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 18:25:23 --- join: rixard_ (~rixard@90-229-190-197-no63.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 18:26:31 --- quit: carc (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:26:51 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 18:27:00 --- quit: rixard (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 18:27:00 --- nick: rixard_ -> rixard 18:58:35 --- quit: cataska (Remote host closed the connection) 19:09:52 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 19:23:20 --- join: samrat 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