00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.09.26 00:03:33 --- quit: pgomes (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 00:08:27 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-175-72-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 01:03:31 --- join: true-grue (~grue@89-178-175-135.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:14:08 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 01:32:16 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 01:45:16 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-110.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:46:46 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@87.113.116.210) joined #forth 02:47:56 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:48:11 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 04:43:13 --- join: hellen_haskeller (~kvirc@64.116.185.9) joined #forth 04:48:01 --- quit: hellen_haskeller (Client Quit) 05:21:23 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-7-24.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 05:23:52 --- join: true-grue_ (~grue@89-178-175-135.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 05:25:56 --- quit: true-grue (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:24:26 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 06:31:48 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 07:04:55 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 07:56:43 --- quit: protist (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:07:23 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 08:08:08 --- quit: Zarutian (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 08:08:27 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 08:34:44 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@42.Red-83-59-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 08:51:40 --- join: nottwo (~trannie@nottwo.org) joined #forth 09:02:06 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 10:16:56 --- quit: bbloom (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 11:06:47 Hi folks. 11:09:45 I noticed the talk regarding PIC32s. I did a port of eForth to MIPS using subroutine threading with inlining optimizations. 11:10:16 I was preparing to release it earlier this year when I got sidetracked by other work. But now that I see there is interest, I am thinking of ramping it back up. 11:28:15 backer: just push it to github :) 11:50:35 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 12:04:43 xyh: need to resolve a few gnarly hacks ;) 12:06:09 It's running on PIC32MX150/250 and PIC32MX795. The former is being used in an audio player application. 12:18:15 backer cool! 12:18:26 i have a mips port of isforth planned :) 12:18:33 working on something else atm tho 12:25:15 Cool. I have yet to check out isforth. 12:25:49 This one is based on C. H. Ting's eForth2 model... 12:48:16 eforth is a good model and isforth has some similarities but i think isforth is presented better 12:48:32 not "all in one file" in the good old tradition of FIG forth 12:48:44 my code is broken up into logical units 12:48:58 no disrespect for eforth from /me however :) 12:58:14 mark4: you can use emacs org-mode to let "all code in one file", this is good to incremental string search in the text editor :) 12:58:48 xyh or you use a real source code editor like sublime text 3 :) 12:59:09 having all sources blobed into one source file is as bad as having all code blobbed into one single function 12:59:50 separate out the logical units and you can think of each logical unit individually, give it your undivided attention 12:59:59 i.e. you will find it easier to maintain 13:00:11 and emacs is a horrible operating system 13:00:23 }:) 13:11:11 in emacs org-mode, in its fold-able tree structure, codes are separated into logical units, but still in one file, embeded into documents and notes of your program by code blocks. (fold-able tree structure it gives your undivided attention of a unit) 13:13:16 you also can export your tree-structured code with your notes and documents into html 13:15:28 --- join: Mat3 (~Mat@91.65.76.247) joined #forth 13:15:30 hi all 13:15:37 hi Mat3 13:15:45 hello xyh 13:17:08 mark4: and emacs is a much better operating system then UNIX, emacs is the the ghost of LISP-machine 13:21:22 hi Mat3 13:22:43 An editor as unifying operating system.. hmm, Jef Raskin protegated this before his death as preferable GUI paradigm. His somewhat final implementation, the Canon Cat? environment was build from a Forth variant as I know 13:23:07 hello backer 13:24:47 backer: Are the sources of your MIPS based Forth environment uploaded somewhere ? 13:25:17 I would gladly take a look at it 13:37:10 Mat3: the Cat looks so cool :) going to study Jef Raskin's works a little, for I am writing my OS :) 13:38:30 there should be an Canon Cat emulator somewhere in the net 13:38:56 what OS have you in mind ? 13:40:55 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 13:41:17 hello Zarutian 13:44:20 ciao 13:44:23 just ``an colored editor as unifying operating system'', powered by my forth dialect :) , I am also thinking of design the UI as a 2D role-playing game 13:44:41 xyh lol lisp is too cluttered :P 13:44:45 ()((()))()((()()()()))) 13:44:55 oopts i think i forgot 45345345245 parrens there 13:45:28 mat3 yes thats "THE" yes? 13:45:35 yes 13:45:35 raskin i mean 13:45:55 they have started to do what he suggested in web browsers. 13:46:16 i have to say i utterly disagree with his entire theory myself 13:46:47 its a diametric opposite of UNIX. small separate individual utilitues, each an expert at their task 13:47:16 or. one BLOB containing everything you need in an operating system, web browser, editor, music player, movie player, coffee maker.. . . . 13:47:32 (defun reality (x) (setq 'y (curry x))) 13:47:36 it is also totally un forth like. factor your code 13:48:05 to reality :x set "y tail :x end 13:48:38 (just two different syntax representations for the same language) 13:49:15 mark4: about ``experts at their task'' http://www.dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html 13:49:16 so a braces free Lisp is possible 13:50:04 ^set "y [tail :x] 13:51:20 --- quit: Mat3 (Quit: Verlassend) 13:57:19 why does braces/parens in Lisp scare people so much? One is basicly working with tree datastructures made up from lists. 13:58:15 in Lisp the datastructure one uses most is the list, in Lua it is the table, in Tcl it is the string/list and in Forth it is the cell. Incorrect? 13:58:36 its not scary. its obfuscated its like if(((((x = 1) && (y = 2))) | ((()()()))((((()()() 13:59:01 cluster fuck if/else statements with lots of nested logic is difficult to read 13:59:05 easy to fuck up 13:59:14 in c that is 14:01:58 c is and was trying to be too Algol68 like in its syntax. Algol68 tried to make it easier to just write the usual mathematical notation* into code. (* which is shit btw, I have been known to use Office2007 equation editor to write up an equation then looked at the generated MathML to see what it actually meant) 14:02:02 much cleaner in forth but even there you can do squrily logic 14:02:45 Zarutian: and in APL it is the array :) actually, in Forth it can be list too :) if you setup a GC in Forth, it will be very easy to implement list 14:02:57 GC? 14:03:08 garbage collection 14:03:12 garbage collection is horrible 14:03:30 if you need GC what you really need to do is rethink your HOW from the get go 14:03:31 depends on what you are doing with the memory where gc is done. 14:03:57 if your allocating billions of strings and concating them and writing them to files and what have you 14:04:06 gc is a good solution to the problem 14:04:14 if its a well implemented gc 14:04:44 if you are doing a chess program thats looking at billions of positions then gc is stupid 14:05:01 or you are implementing simulations of interconnected yet ephimeral stuff then GC is good too. 14:05:20 garbage-collector is good 14:05:35 all I am saying is the OO with decent GC has it place in the toolbox 14:05:48 if gc is so "good" why do i have to keep calling system.gc() in my android apps 14:06:03 because all 23487562896452 items it didnt yet free will OOM me if i dont 14:06:32 mark4: perhaps because there is no gc thread? I do not know honestly 14:06:51 instead of waiting till you have a large number of items to free and stalling the entire system at various intervals while you do it 14:06:57 take the time NOW to free that ONE item 14:08:09 I have seen an Mark&Copy continous GCollector. Rather nifty. The GC ran continously and didnt stop mutator threads but for some atomic actions. 14:09:39 i dont want a gc thread. android limits the number of threads in one app. why should that limit be limited further by a thread owned by the system 14:09:54 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 14:09:59 system.gc() ? after I write a GC and let it allocate list for me, I do not need to call such function as "gc" directly. maybe my gc is just better then java's :) 14:10:24 wait what? There is thread limit on android apps? 14:10:38 system.gc() is a call to "hey do that clean up NOW kthxbai" 14:10:56 as opposed to wait and HOPE its been cleaned up next time you need something 14:11:23 i believe there is yes... my memory says there is but ive been known to blur issues like this before.. . . . 14:11:30 trust but verify lol 14:12:29 ok i just looked, seems there is no actual limit 14:12:39 i must be bluring some other limit .. . 14:13:07 iOS limit perhaps? 14:13:07 oh. it might be an AsyncTask() limit... erm not sure 14:13:17 no i dont do ios dev. 14:13:39 not an expert at android dev either. i just wrote a native android forth library 14:13:46 java's GC is not incremental ? 14:14:03 ported isforth to arm and then ported that to android as a shared lib 14:14:10 no idea 14:14:10 xyh: it is generational for most of the time iirc. 14:14:29 all i know is gc stalls were common in android, google claims they improved their gc. 14:14:32 isforth is what kind of forth? 14:14:58 direct threaded x32 linux forth. written in asm, uses no external libraries for anything 14:15:04 does it all with direct syscalls 14:15:15 noice 14:15:27 and its own extensions. like its curses extension and memory manager extension 14:15:43 is the syscalls sectiontioned off making it portable? 14:15:52 ive not released the arm or android versions and there are bugs i discovered while doing them that need to be applied to the x32 version 14:16:01 it is in syscalls.f 14:16:12 but porability was NEVER a goal 14:16:36 but it has been ported to PPC and FBSD in the past tho neither of those are maintained and both probably broken now 14:16:43 so it wouldnt be that hard to port to seL4 or capros then. (Given the apropos filesystem servers and such) 14:16:47 i ported it to arm forth with no problems 14:17:07 www.isforth.com 14:32:28 mine is very portable too , I will generate some html files for you to view :) now 14:49:03 http://cicada-language.github.io/source-code/ :) 14:51:05 mark4: in emacs, the tree structures are fold-able :) you see, it is in one file, and still in logic units 14:53:24 i hate folding editors. thats why i hate eclipse. its a folding editor wth NO way to globally disable folding for all file types PERMANANTLY 14:53:40 you can only disable folding in the curreng file for the current session 14:57:24 mark4: the interface of folding in emacs org-mode is one of the best interfaces human ever invented :) 14:57:51 you just give org-mode a try, you will love it :) 14:58:11 you need to take a look at something... 14:58:11 mark4: http://orgmode.org/ 14:58:13 http://code.tutsplus.com/courses/perfect-workflow-in-sublime-text-2 14:58:26 watch every single one of those vidos and tell me emacs is worth a damn then 14:59:38 those videos are for sublime text 2, st3 is out now and is improved 15:05:22 the author of those videos says he have "try text-editors all" but have never used emacs :) [ and maybe this is why he is still using sublime :) ] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQAd41VAXWo http://emacsrocks.com/ 15:08:13 mark4: can I add syntax highlighting to a new language in sublime ? 15:11:19 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 15:49:04 --- quit: true-grue_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:01:52 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16:14:40 xyh: Sublime is god-awful. It's the single editor that I'd almost be willing to use Emacs over (and I utterly hate Emacs!). 16:44:19 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 16:58:51 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 17:40:08 ttmrichter: what editor do you use? 18:03:05 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-175-72-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:17:30 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 18:37:41 --- quit: dch (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 18:37:57 --- quit: nox (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:38:19 --- quit: aksatac___ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 20:39:19 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-7-24.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 20:57:36 --- quit: carc (Quit: QUIT) 20:58:17 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 21:12:57 --- join: dch (sid1310@couchdb/committer/dch) joined #forth 21:16:07 --- join: nox (sid3872@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-yasmvbpvtppnqkkt) joined #forth 21:26:30 --- join: aksatac___ (sid12717@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qvqtwahfvdmjkill) joined #forth 21:43:54 backer: I use ABE. 21:43:59 (Anything But Emacs.) 21:44:24 I guess I should update that to ABEAS, though. Anything But Emacs And Sublime. :) 21:44:44 More seriously, my primary editor is Textadept and my backup editor is Vim. 21:45:04 And my "in emergencies where nothing else can work" editor is ed. 21:51:56 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 21:59:40 I've waffled between emacs and vim for years. I'm back on emacs these days. ;) 22:40:00 I was never able to warm up to Emacs. 22:40:25 It's just never clicked, and I even did a one-month "I will only use Emacs" stint. 22:40:44 In that month I could only look forward to X days, Y hours, Z minutes until I can stop using Emacs. 22:40:48 That's generally a bad sign. :) 22:42:37 --- quit: DGASAU (Remote host closed the connection) 23:02:50 --- join: DGASAU (~user@p50993595.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:37:56 --- join: true-grue (~grue@93-80-109-62.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.09.26