00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.09.16 00:56:33 --- join: pgomes (d4b9b9a4@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.212.185.185.164) joined #forth 01:56:58 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 02:19:08 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 02:32:26 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 02:37:25 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 02:45:02 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-164.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 02:48:03 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 04:15:19 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:16:07 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@hokuriku.rural-networks.com) joined #forth 04:55:56 --- quit: DGASAU (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 04:57:46 --- join: DGASAU (~user@p50993595.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 05:33:28 --- join: brinkhoff (~lars@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 06:30:09 --- quit: zlrth (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 06:53:34 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@113.119.215.58) joined #forth 07:07:20 --- quit: mr-foobar (Quit: Leaving...) 07:19:34 currently, I use different naming conventions on variables constants functions, so with an emacs mode I can highlighting them differently. any good styles about naming convention ? 07:20:30 --- quit: DGASAU (Quit: restart) 07:20:41 but, if we design a text-editor together with the language, which querys the dictionary about the types of each words, then we can do syntax highlighting even when they all follow the same naming convention. 07:30:30 --- join: DGASAU (~user@p50993595.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 07:53:07 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 07:55:40 --- quit: pgomes (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client) 08:22:58 xyh: If you read ... Thinking Forth I think it was? ... there's a section on naming conventions there. 08:23:01 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@2001:858:5:3a40:617a:a071:e3e6:6563) joined #forth 08:23:22 ttmrichter: ok 08:23:32 Like how ! implies setting, @ implies reading, > and < implies data movement, ? implies a test predicate, etc. 08:24:01 So >R means "to the return stack" and R> means "from the return stack" and stuff like that. 08:24:07 . means display. 08:24:13 " means some form of string. 08:24:20 ." means, therefore, display string. 08:25:06 --- quit: fantazo (Client Quit) 08:25:47 I'll be back soon, the cafe I am in is closing :P 08:25:53 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 08:26:14 I won't. I'm going to bed. :) 08:26:15 Chat later. 08:43:31 --- join: mr-foobar (~mucker@49.206.63.113) joined #forth 08:45:23 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 08:50:30 --- join: Celo (~Celo@200.185.202.251) joined #forth 08:50:38 hellow 08:51:04 fuck you 08:51:19 --- part: Celo left #forth 08:51:49 *sigh* 08:53:16 :D 09:31:23 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 09:33:30 --- quit: danfinch (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 09:37:13 ttmrichter: I just use "save" instead of "!", and "fetch" instead of "@" 09:41:13 --- join: zlrth (~user@c-71-206-216-100.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:42:12 --- join: danfinch (~danfinch@69.59.125.205) joined #forth 10:50:03 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:13:16 --- join: joneshf_ (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 11:14:57 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 11:16:23 --- quit: joneshf (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:23:43 --- join: joneshf (~joneshf@98.208.35.89) joined #forth 11:27:02 --- quit: joneshf_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 11:38:18 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is) joined #forth 11:51:35 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 12:10:03 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 12:17:10 xyh: I also find myself preferring literal semantics over symbolic. Though the later translates better, I'm betting. 12:27:43 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 12:29:30 krainboltgreene: by ``translates better'', you mean they get interpreted faster? 12:29:44 No I mean written language translate. 12:30:27 "save" may not have a perfect translation in other human languages. 12:35:31 if one uses another language (other than english) to program, the whole Forth dictionary should be changed, so this two words will not be a matter. and, about (for example) teaching a Chinese Forth, it would be equally easy to tell the Chinese the meaning of ":" and ";" in Forth, or to tell the Chinese the meaning of "save" and "fetch" in english. 12:40:48 The word, however, still carries the culture's bias for that term where as for a symbol you're simply introducing instead of overwriting. 12:55:33 --- quit: brinkhoff (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 13:07:54 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 13:15:07 --- quit: newcup (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 13:20:40 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 13:39:44 --- quit: zlrth (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 14:27:03 --- quit: mr-foobar (Quit: Leaving...) 14:29:44 --- join: xyh (~xieyuheng@2001:250:3002:5550:6ea1:cc0f:bcb2:b187) joined #forth 14:51:35 --- join: brinkhoff (~lars@c-4957e555.012-14-67626717.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) joined #forth 14:51:52 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 31.0/20140716183446]) 15:01:44 --- quit: xyh (Remote host closed the connection) 16:15:17 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 16:15:42 --- quit: koisoke (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16:16:44 --- join: koisoke (xef4@epilogue.org) joined #forth 17:28:32 xyh: The problem with using words like save/fetch over !/@ is that when you start combining them (as you inevitably will) you're going to hit Spring levels of stupidity in names. 17:30:45 Hit http://spring.io/docs, take a look at just the list of classes and interfaces, then tell me without laughing that things have been made any clearer by using "clear words" over symbols. 17:33:46 Well it's Java too.. 17:36:19 And Java has a fetish for the "use full words" thing. 17:36:37 Fetish really is the word. 17:36:39 It's the go-to ecosystem for showing why using full words doesn't make things clearer. 17:37:05 Well, if it was only that.. 17:38:02 If spring.io would actually talk I could give you a list of (literally) hundreds of class names that are all full words and yet all complete gibberish to the point that replacing them with judicious contractions and/or symbols would not impede learning in the slightest. 17:38:33 I'd go farther. It would make it easier. 17:38:41 I can't write Java without an IDA. 17:38:45 IDA? 17:38:51 IDE* sorry 17:39:05 Heh. Sorry here as well. Haven't had my caffeine yet. 17:39:29 Anyway, yeah, the "use words, dammit!" fetish is silly. Like every other cargo cult in computing. 17:39:33 Don't worry, I came back from school not long ago. I'm cooling off 17:39:46 Yeah 17:40:21 R> vs. FETCH_FROM_RETURN_STACK 17:40:43 If you *learn* a language and the naming conventions (presuming there are some!) of its library, the first is no less readable than the second. 17:40:56 And if you don't learn it, the second has no meaning anyway. 17:41:10 Well there is naming convention, whatever language you use. 17:41:16 But yeah. 17:41:24 Zag: You haven't seen PHP's library recently have you... :D 17:41:27 Return? Fetch? Stack? I'm a dog now? 17:41:37 Oh shit right. 17:41:38 Sorry. 17:41:46 The stupidity of PHP continues to amaze every time I look at it. 17:42:03 I haven't really. But I will probably really soon. 17:42:10 The "naming convention" consists of "I needed to change the spelling because my 'hash function' was strlen." 17:42:23 I am emphatically not making this up. 17:43:23 Ahaha 17:44:29 Oh, I confused 'naming convention' with 'syntax'. I think. 17:44:58 Ah, that could be. 17:45:13 I'm talking naming conventions like @ meaning fetch and ! meaning store and R referring to the return stack, etc. 17:45:30 Even in Spring there's a naming convention of sorts. It's just a ludicrously long-winded one. 17:45:30 Yeah. I really think I mess those us. 17:45:34 s/us/up 17:45:50 But "Facade" and "Decorator" and "Factory" and such all have actual meanings. 17:46:13 Well, if my French were as good as your English I'd make fun of you. 17:46:51 Sadly my French was only ever good enough to have simple conversations or to read a newspaper with some difficulty. And it's rusted over from disuse over the past 20 years or so. 17:46:56 Go ahead. My French is better than my English :D 17:47:24 French is weird at best. 17:48:09 * ttmrichter guessed wrong then? 17:48:18 I thought you were in France. :) 17:48:32 I'm from Québec. I'm just using my friend's server. 17:48:55 Ah. 17:49:16 SEPARATIST BASTARD! *ahem* I mean, I'm Canuckistani too, but I'm from Germany and in China. :) 17:49:49 Ahah, never heard that one. 17:50:05 What? Being called a separatist bastard? 17:50:07 The "Canuckistani" one. The other.. Not that much. 17:50:18 Ah, beautiful Canuckistan. 17:50:35 I'll keep that one tho. It's great. 17:50:38 It's a quaint country that has, believe it or not, its own culture, government and laws! 17:50:58 I just go with ROC. 17:51:23 (Incidentally, don't take the separatist bastard thing seriously. Had I the vote in Quebec I'd vote for separation too.) 17:51:28 ROC? 17:51:35 Rest Of Canada 17:51:35 Royal Ottawa Chiropractic? 17:51:40 Oh, right. 17:52:23 I didn't take it seriously. Don't worry. 17:53:06 At least now you know why I bothered learning French at all. :D 17:53:44 Yeah. I like it. But jesus it's has problem 17:54:11 French is a gorgeous sounding language ... until you Quebecers get ahold of it! :D 17:54:18 (I jest again.) 17:54:32 Ahaha :D 17:54:36 But yeah, French grammar is almost as crazy as German grammar and the orthography is insane. 17:55:01 Yeah. It's just.. There's no simple rules that *just* works. 18:02:25 Wouldn't it be nice, if we could simply 'see' any words.. 18:03:00 Like in Chinese? 18:03:18 I was trying to make a forth pun. I think I failed. 18:03:26 Oh, sorry. :) 18:03:33 Ahah x) 18:03:43 More like Color Forth then. :D 18:04:11 Yeah. I saw the talk Moore did about it (at least one of them). 18:04:15 It's insane.. 18:04:32 Not a big fan of it here. 18:05:18 I don't have opinion about it. I saw the talk about his chip. And it's insane what you can do with.. basically nothing. 18:05:43 What, the GA144? 18:05:47 You can do loads with it. 18:06:01 There are two problems with it: 18:06:03 Yeah that one 18:06:16 1. It's a radically different style than anybody is used to so it's a major uphill battle to sell. 18:06:43 2. The company is singularly unresponsive to the point that a project I had started based on it is now canned; four-month turnaround time in communication is unacceptable. 18:07:12 1. I don't mind different style, but yeah. 18:07:15 2. Outch. 18:07:57 What the GA144 is really suited to is a situation where you'd otherwise want an FPGA, but can't afford the cost, size, and/or power requirements of an FPGA. 18:10:23 Probably. I don't know, it's really not my expertise. 18:10:36 I just roam around on the internet when my classes are boring 18:19:19 --- join: beretta (~beretta@cpe-74-135-127-101.swo.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:49:56 --- quit: newcup (*.net *.split) 18:50:04 --- quit: Adeon (*.net *.split) 18:55:21 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 18:55:42 --- join: Adeon (~shannon@sukima.trankesbel.com) joined #forth 19:34:57 --- quit: TodPunk (Quit: This is me, signing off. Probably rebooting or something.) 19:38:36 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 19:39:56 --- quit: TodPunk (Client Quit) 19:42:52 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 19:42:52 --- quit: TodPunk (Client Quit) 19:45:15 --- join: _schulte_ (~eschulte@12.155.35.66) joined #forth 19:45:15 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 19:45:39 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:47:31 --- quit: _schulte_ (Client Quit) 19:47:48 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 20:08:03 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:34:03 --- quit: cataska (Remote host closed the connection) 20:36:11 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 20:55:47 --- part: DKordic left #forth 20:56:07 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 21:09:11 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-110-168-229-164.revip5.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 21:12:41 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 21:19:02 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 21:28:37 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:03:43 --- quit: MrMobius (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 22:04:35 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:19:34 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 22:19:47 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:39:44 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:39:59 --- join: mr-foobar (~mucker@49.205.90.227) joined #forth 22:40:40 --- quit: MrM0bius (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:41:18 --- quit: mr-foobar (Remote host closed the connection) 22:42:54 --- join: mr-foobar (~mucker@49.205.90.227) joined #forth 22:54:13 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 22:54:26 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:58:35 --- quit: MrM0bius (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:59:12 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:31:37 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 23:31:50 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@c-98-223-189-47.hsd1.in.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.09.16