00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.06.18 00:11:56 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 00:26:04 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 00:31:57 --- quit: carc (Quit: _exit(0);) 00:32:27 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 00:38:05 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 00:40:37 --- quit: carc (Quit: _exit(0);) 00:41:07 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 00:46:19 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00:50:12 --- quit: carc (Quit: _exit(0);) 00:51:45 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 00:53:22 --- quit: carc (Client Quit) 00:53:52 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 00:55:08 --- quit: carc (Client Quit) 00:55:38 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 01:16:01 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:17:19 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@93-43-168-8.ip92.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 01:20:23 --- nick: DGASAU` -> DGASAU 01:44:15 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: impomatic) 01:47:48 --- quit: impomatic_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 01:48:34 --- join: impomatic (~chatzilla@84.93.80.151) joined #forth 01:57:02 --- join: true-grue (~grue@128-69-60-24.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 02:36:14 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 29.0.1/20140506152807]) 02:36:33 --- join: impomatic (~digital_w@84.93.80.151) joined #forth 02:41:43 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 02:51:23 --- join: f-a (~f-a@se3x.mullvad.net) joined #forth 04:32:20 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-9-161.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 05:35:20 --- quit: teslacuted (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 05:36:29 --- join: teslacuted (~teslacut@skynet.skynet.ie) joined #forth 05:44:05 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 06:11:28 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 06:11:51 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 06:15:34 --- join: f-a (~f-a@nl4x.mullvad.net) joined #forth 06:24:06 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:36:14 --- join: f-a (~f-a@se4x.mullvad.net) joined #forth 06:51:41 --- join: Zarutian_ (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 06:52:49 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:52:49 --- nick: Zarutian_ -> Zarutian 07:07:45 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 07:14:15 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 08:02:37 f-a: yeah, I think FORGET isn't in later standards 08:02:43 ah, yes, here we go: http://www.forth200x.org/unobsolete-forget.txt 08:03:36 apparently one is meant to use MARKER 08:05:19 f-a: it is not a religion war. 08:06:03 MARKER allows for more efficient dictionary implementation than linked list. 08:06:24 ohhh, now I see. Thanks for the explanation. 08:06:36 Almost ten years and the new standard still isn't ready :-( 08:07:11 CL lives with the same standard for 30 years already. 08:08:43 The same standard for 30 years at least shows the language is stable. 08:08:48 I am quite new to forth, I am learning it in these days. 08:09:18 You could have found better thing to invest your time in. 08:09:29 go on 08:12:55 f-a: Asau, in his various personas, is in #forth solely to bitch about Forth. 08:13:17 He has no other reason to be here that he has ever shown. 08:13:23 I think Forth raped his mother or something. 08:13:28 does he elaborate on his bitching or just bitches? 08:13:50 He mostly just bitches. He will occasionally elaborate. He even occasionally has a point. 08:13:54 Mostly, though, he just bitches. 08:14:41 Contrary to various fans I know Forth from ground up. 08:16:41 As do I, DGASAU. It is only your arrogance that presumes you are the keeper of all that is Forth. 08:16:41 Well DGASAU, I am all ears. Please elaborate on your warning, if you have time/want. 08:19:14 f-a: try to find any serious product or any domain where Forth gives you any sort of advantage in the modern time. 08:19:39 Small embedded systems with a dynamic component. 08:20:00 And the market needs them, of course. :) 08:20:09 Mine does. 08:20:24 Yours only. 08:20:46 So you have surveyed everybody working in embedded systems and determined that I'm the only one? 08:20:50 Or is this more of your idiot arrogance? 08:20:55 (Hint: it's the latter.) 08:21:10 I was attracted to forth by its minimal syntax and its, err, template programming capabilities, DGASAU . 08:21:33 f-a: Where I do agree with Asau is that Forth is not suited to general purpose programming. 08:21:42 It's not suited to large code situations. 08:21:43 "Minimal syntax" in Forth is a misleading statement. 08:21:46 It's not suited to large teams. 08:22:06 Forth has as much syntax as Lua. 08:22:35 It's suited to small problem domains with constrained environments and small, capable teams. 08:22:42 As for template programming, Forth capabilities are really inferior. 08:22:49 inferior to what DGASAU ? 08:23:25 Even CPP provides you with better templates. 08:23:48 haha, I see I am being trolled. 08:23:52 And this is very far from state-of-art technology. 08:24:17 Right. If you want state-of-the-art you need Java EE. :) 08:24:19 There're CL and Scheme that do this. 08:24:25 argh 08:24:38 I wish people quoting scheme actually read scheme reports 08:24:40 I'd love to find a CL that'll fit in my devices. :D 08:24:55 Even a Scheme would be a tight fit with little room left for actual program. 08:24:56 R7RS small language is less powerful than Common Lisp 08:25:11 Common Lisp, while powerful, is quite a biiig language 08:25:22 Any standard Scheme is less powerful than standard CL. 08:25:26 So what? 08:25:29 no 08:25:32 we are talking about macros 08:25:36 It's also creaking with age, incapable for the most part of properly handling modern computing environments. 08:25:53 R6RS has 'syntax-case' 08:26:04 which is on par with CL (ok, module some edge cases) 08:27:29 Standard Forth doesn't provide even those capabilities. 08:27:48 Standard Forth is an oxymoron in my books. 08:28:00 The biggest mistake made in Forth was attempting to standardize it. 08:29:47 If you don't standardize it, you fall back to virtually no code reuse. 08:31:03 <<"Reusable" as in "you can rewrite it so that it can be useful to you.">> :D 08:31:33 Since I view Forth as only suited to small, constrained projects with small teams this is largely a non-issue for me. 08:31:53 Were I to use Forth for anything larger than a small, very focused embedded app I'd laugh at myself. 08:32:31 Past a certain point and I'd switch to Modula-2--if I could ever find one again.:(--or *spit* C. 08:33:17 pity 08:33:38 I find forth words (and instant) quite suited to some problems 08:33:49 *for 08:33:56 That's why professional embedded developers don't use Forth these days. 08:34:24 * ttmrichter is a professional embedded developer (again). Uses Forth. Disproves DGASAU's grand pronouncement. Again. 08:34:29 They take cross-compiler and write in C reusing a lot of knowledge. 08:34:36 Seriously, DGASAU, you really do need to curb your use of universals. 08:34:59 Any reasonable person knows the difference between mathematics and physics. 08:35:50 Few fanatics that produce fringe products do not count. 08:38:45 Again, I presume you have actual data backing up your grand pronouncements? 08:39:02 Or are you just letting your mother's rape at the hands of Forth get to you again? 08:39:48 Of course, I have actual data. 08:39:54 Show it. 08:40:10 thanks for your tip ttmrichter 08:40:10 http://google.com/ 08:40:15 (Hint: the plural of anedote is not data.) 08:40:23 Find companies that hire developers for embedded development. 08:40:35 Count how many of them put Forth into the list of requirements. :) 08:40:38 Ah. So your "data" consists of "I can't see it so it can't exist". 08:41:01 Your disputation has convinced me. It's time to shut down Forth and #forth. 08:41:09 I bow to your mastery of logical argument. 08:41:17 You sad putz. 08:41:22 Following your logic I can as easily assert that the whole world develops embedded software in Haskell. 08:41:37 Because I know one company that does it. 08:42:12 See, what you're doing now is called "straw man". Your logic is impeccable. 08:42:22 argh 08:42:23 (Hint: I never said the whole world develops embedded in Forth.) 08:42:34 please DGASAU , don't tell me you like Haskell :c 08:42:43 I like Haskell. 08:42:47 I just can't stand the ecosystem. 08:42:47 Me too. 08:42:59 For anyone that is not an idiot, lack of positions with Forth on the list of requirements tells exactly the same: 08:43:11 that Forth is used only on fringes. 08:43:23 Your logic, again, is impeccable. 08:43:41 I applaud your prowess in disputation. 08:44:00 And really, Forth is very sorry for having raped your mother. He feels really bad about it and wants to make amends. 08:44:52 He also wants to take a blood test in case he has paternal duties to perform. 08:46:03 Sure. :) 08:46:28 DGASAU: most cross-compilers for C output tremendously lousy machine code for most embedded MCU's. 08:46:30 You've lost the argument again. 08:46:35 Why not to resort to other boyish things? 08:47:27 What argument? Your arguments consisted entirely of "proof by lack of imagination", "proof by 'I have never seen'", "proof by calling the other side an idiot", and "proof by attacking straw men". 08:47:35 When you HAVE an actual argument let me know. 08:47:51 DGASAU: which is tremendously annoying when you do not have enough program memory space to entertain the 'optimizations' that they make. 08:48:06 ttmrichter: that professional embedded developers don't use Forth, for instance. 08:48:20 All I need to disprove that statement is provide one counterexample. 08:48:25 And here he is: 08:48:30 * ttmrichter ← 08:48:41 Bingo! Argument falls flat on its face. 08:48:45 Sure, that's because you believe it. 08:49:03 * ttmrichter counts down to "no true Scotsman". 08:49:03 But you're an idiot, so it doesn't actually prove anything. :) 08:49:10 DGASAU: they use assembly when the MCUs are small and something better when they are big (hint, aint C/C++) and occasationally Forth when the MCUs are in the medium range. 08:49:15 And here we have it, combined with ad hominem fallacy no less. 08:49:31 DGASAU masters disputation once again! 08:49:35 Such prowess! 08:49:44 You studied directly under Socrates, didn't you? 08:49:48 * Zarutian ignores DGASAU 08:50:07 Zarutian: "occasionally" as in "once in a blue moon"? 08:50:23 If they do it ONCE your "argument" is obliterated. 08:50:35 No. 08:50:39 Because you do dunderheaded things with universals instead of actually correctly applying qualifiers. 08:50:41 what I find interesting with Forth (mainly from eForth which I have studied and some stuff I heard about figForth) is the bootstrapability 08:50:49 s/with/about/ 08:51:05 They must do it so many times that they become visible in Google. :) 08:51:20 Because, of course, Google is the repository of all corporate knowledge. 08:51:27 Otherwise, it is still as marginal as Haskell. 08:51:41 Funnily enough, only ... five years ago was it? I was told that nobody could be using Erlang because they didn't find job listings for Erlang. 08:51:42 Google has started to turn to shit after 'improvements' and DMCA 08:52:02 In the mean time, because of some contacts I have here, I knew of at least a dozen companies in China who were using Erlang. 08:52:05 Get any other resource, DuckDuckGo, Bing, whatever. 08:52:09 Why did it not show up in their listings? 08:52:13 galois.com 08:52:29 Because they felt Erlang was a strategic advantage. And they didn't want to advertise this tool. 08:52:35 http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Haskell_in_industry 08:52:39 They spent money training their people in Erlang instead of advertising. 08:53:01 So by the DGASAU Method of Analysis, nobody was using Erlang. 08:53:31 In the world of reality, however, Erlang was an increasingly common language for some seriously large software houses. 08:53:45 * DGASAU was writing in Erlang in a startup company six years ago. 08:53:54 Still, it was quite marginal back then. 08:54:02 what HR craps out into job adverts often only marginally reflect the actual job requirements. 08:54:04 (Including, among others, Alibaba, Tomtom and a handful of MMORPGS.) 08:54:35 so, me joining #forth awakens trolls :s 08:54:39 not a good start, f-a 08:54:44 Nah, it's OK. 08:54:56 Nowadays I can find open positions at common places rather than only through personal contacts among interested in Erlang. 08:54:58 DGASAU exists in here solely to warn people away from the evils of mother-raping Forth. 08:55:29 Try doing that for your beloved Forth that gives you strategic advantages. :) 08:55:31 Here's one for you: http://www.pikatechnologies.com/english/view.asp?x=347 08:55:40 Go look in their page. 08:55:50 Find the job listings if they have any. 08:56:00 Find any hint that they use Forth. 08:56:04 ttmrichter: Erlang stuff is rather robust from what I have seen. You could kill an entire server hosting a part of mmorpg and there would be minimal disruptions while the actors are restarted elsewhere. 08:56:14 Zarutian: Right. 08:56:27 You won't find a single reference to Forth anywhere on Pika's web site. 08:56:28 None. 08:56:46 Yet, in the Daytona line of boards they use Forth. 08:56:48 why give up the Secret Souce™? ;-Þ 08:56:55 (How do I know? I wrote it...) 08:57:18 Now it COULD be that over the years they've replaced that Forth code with something else, but I rather doubt it. 08:57:30 Jim (Pinard) doesn't replace working code. 08:58:10 Looking at the board there I see the same components in place where I had the Forth going. 08:58:17 Not a lot has changed. 08:58:45 My guess is my Forth code is still running (probably with some minor adjustments given some of the visible changes to the analog components.) 08:59:21 According to the DGASAU Method®, Pika doesn't use Forth because they don't advertise it. 08:59:22 Any new product developed in Forth after one crazy fanatic left? ;) 08:59:33 I have no idea. I left. 09:00:09 But again, it points out a slight flaw in your method: advertisements don't say shit about what people are actually doing. 09:00:16 ESPECIALLY not job advertisements. 09:00:44 --- quit: daowee (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 09:00:47 It doesn't point any flaw in my method because I talked about job advertisement. 09:01:01 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 09:01:02 Pika doesn't advertise a need for Forth in their job advertisements either. 09:01:08 And yet someone has to maintain that code. 09:01:30 At the very least to support the changes to the analog interfaces I'm seeing. 09:01:31 Ha-ha. Do you really think that it is that hard? 09:01:51 Again with the straw man approach? Such logic! 09:01:56 I didn't say it was hard. 09:02:04 I said they use Forth and they don't advertise the fact. 09:02:14 Not in their literature and not in their job advertisements. 09:03:38 So, your only proof is your own example that is about an old product line where most probably no new code is written and perhaps old code has been rewritten to get rid of Forth. :) 09:03:47 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 09:03:53 That's cool. 09:04:01 And your proof is "I can't Google it!". 09:04:24 Actual knowledge of implementation vs. spewing bullshit paired with one logical fallacy after another. 09:04:33 Much logic! Such impressive! 09:05:21 http://forthfreak.net/index.cgi?WikiWrittenInForth people didn't heed your words, ttmrichter :P 09:06:08 That you don't distinguish marginal case from the main practice really makes you look like an idiot. 09:06:21 And another straw man. 09:06:30 f-a: one can write wiki in almost any language, this doesn't prove anything. 09:06:31 You're really just not doing well today. 09:06:57 DGASAU: newsflash, I wasn't talking to you 09:06:59 (Actually you never do really well, but that's beside the point.) 09:07:22 ... and I wasn't even trying to prove a point 09:07:31 f-a: you are talking on public channel. ;) 09:07:58 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:07:59 which part of "... and I wasn't even trying to prove a point" wasn't clear? 09:09:47 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 09:09:52 What about it? 09:10:05 /ignore DGASAU 09:10:22 :p 09:10:50 f-a: He's used to it. 09:11:03 The only people who talk to him for long are newcomers. 09:11:09 Most people just give up and /ignore. 09:14:25 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 09:26:03 haha, I love this. 09:26:31 DGASAU is so deeply invested in promoting Forth as to stand as a sparring partner for anyone who wants to sharpen their forth advocacy skills. 09:26:37 it's noble work, and thankless. 09:26:41 wtg DGASAU 09:37:06 As if these "advocates" can learn anything... 09:56:46 --- join: xyh (~user@121.33.190.151) joined #forth 09:57:55 DGASAU: do you actually use Forth for anything? 09:59:02 It runs our bootloader. 10:00:02 But that's legacy code, nobody maintains it. 10:05:47 I don't think that we need all that code actually, but since it is irrelevant, I don't see any reason to invest time into it. 10:12:50 an open x86 bootloader ? 10:13:10 Yes. 10:13:28 But I guess it will be the first thing to die when we become constrained by space. 10:13:44 Among the first for sure. 10:14:56 a link for it ? I want to try :) 10:17:14 http://svn0.eu.freebsd.org/base/head/sys/boot/ 10:20:00 DGASAU: thx, and you work for freeBSD ?? 10:20:33 Our product is based on FreeBSD currently. 10:27:48 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 10:35:59 --- join: daowee (~daowee@m80-170-84-114.cust.tele2.se) joined #forth 10:36:35 DGASAU: what's your product? 11:08:07 --- join: malyn_ (~malyn@unaffiliated/malyn) joined #forth 11:08:09 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144197145.atnat0006.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 11:13:13 bile 11:16:49 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 11:20:43 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-62.prtc.net) joined #forth 11:21:32 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 11:28:01 --- quit: bbloom (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 11:47:39 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-212.prtc.net) joined #forth 11:49:53 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 11:50:38 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 12:07:02 --- quit: xyh (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 12:09:16 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:17:13 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 12:58:59 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:05:09 --- join: f-a (~f-a@se3x.mullvad.net) joined #forth 13:46:00 --- quit: true-grue (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.) 13:46:17 --- join: true-grue (~grue@128-69-60-24.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 13:54:51 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 13:55:55 --- quit: danfinch (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 13:58:14 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@www.taiyolabs.com) joined #forth 14:03:35 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 14:28:13 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.4.19) joined #forth 14:39:39 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:46:06 --- quit: nighty-_ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 14:54:56 --- join: danfinch (~danfinch@69.59.125.205) joined #forth 16:14:22 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 16:17:23 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 16:19:16 --- join: f-a (~f-a@se3x.mullvad.net) joined #forth 17:05:31 --- quit: f-a (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 17:22:05 dzho: And a bit of whine. 17:24:42 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 17:30:56 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 18:07:28 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:07:42 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~quassel@93-43-168-8.ip92.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 18:41:24 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 19:01:22 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-9-161.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:51:22 --- join: daowee_ (~daowee@m90-141-146-197.cust.tele2.se) joined #forth 19:54:06 --- quit: daowee (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 19:58:30 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:06:09 --- quit: saml_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 21:06:04 --- quit: dch (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:07:25 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-212.prtc.net) joined #forth 21:08:00 --- join: dch (sid1310@couchdb/committer/dch) joined #forth 21:08:20 --- join: noneofmynickswor (~mool@adsl-72-50-85-190.prtc.net) joined #forth 21:11:53 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 21:36:25 --- quit: noneofmynickswor (Quit: Leaving) 23:16:07 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 23:25:37 http://wavepot.com/ this is cool 23:30:26 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.06.18