00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.06.08 00:32:33 --- join: true-grue (~grue@95-28-239-90.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 00:39:47 --- quit: goingretro (Remote host closed the connection) 01:01:48 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 03:02:28 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 03:33:36 --- join: protist (~protist@30.226.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 04:15:59 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-216-222.as43234.net) joined #forth 04:15:59 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 04:15:59 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 04:36:51 --- quit: petercommand (Quit: leaving) 06:33:41 --- join: aranhoide (~aranhoide@197.Red-83-40-72.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 06:35:56 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-2.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) joined #forth 06:52:08 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 06:56:48 --- join: aranhoide (~aranhoide@145.17.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com) joined #forth 07:16:44 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 07:24:05 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-216-37.as43234.net) joined #forth 07:26:43 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:40:15 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Remote host closed the connection) 07:40:30 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-2.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) joined #forth 08:08:46 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 08:18:55 --- quit: _spt2_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:18:57 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-218-148.as43234.net) joined #forth 08:18:57 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 08:18:57 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 08:44:59 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 08:56:57 --- join: aranhoide_ (~aranhoide@180.3.116.91.dynamic.mundo-r.com) joined #forth 08:57:11 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 09:03:02 --- quit: aranhoide_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 09:11:00 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 09:25:02 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-221-228.as43234.net) joined #forth 09:26:56 --- join: _spt3_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-222-2.as43234.net) joined #forth 09:27:33 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:29:33 --- quit: _spt2_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:34:19 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 09:48:45 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-222-245.as43234.net) joined #forth 09:48:45 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 09:48:45 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 09:51:15 --- quit: _spt3_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 09:56:39 --- quit: karswell (Remote host closed the connection) 10:02:51 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@91.192.67.235) joined #forth 10:10:02 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 10:16:18 --- quit: nop0x07bc (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:20:33 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:20:39 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-211-180.as43234.net) joined #forth 10:21:36 --- join: _spt3_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-211-180.as43234.net) joined #forth 10:22:56 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:24:53 --- quit: _spt2_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:27:19 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 10:30:02 --- quit: _spt3_ (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 10:37:04 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-214-153.as43234.net) joined #forth 10:38:45 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 10:43:20 --- join: nop0x07bc (~pon1980@h107n8-aepv-d7.ias.bredband.telia.com) joined #forth 10:43:38 --- join: karswell (~user@87.112.34.104) joined #forth 11:03:05 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 11:19:54 * Zarutian is looking into ngaro vm (the one that retroforth targets) 11:20:18 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-85-71.prtc.net) joined #forth 11:21:29 the spec is very very simple, was this deliberate? 11:35:34 --- quit: klltkr (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 12:20:32 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 12:30:51 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 12:33:34 --- quit: _spt2_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:37:06 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-220-113.as43234.net) joined #forth 12:40:04 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 12:54:21 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-254.prtc.net) joined #forth 12:57:34 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:27:48 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host86-157-30-139.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 13:28:05 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 13:44:19 Zarutian: yes. Ngaro was intended to be a minimal platform that could eventually be implemented in hardware. (I haven't had opportunity to try a hardware implementation yet though). 13:46:59 crc: any spefic reason for all the *_JUMP instructions instead of just the usual BRZ (branch if TOS was zero)? 13:49:31 That was a carryover from earlier versions of retro, which paired the conditionals to if. In retrospect, it was probably a mistake to do it that way, but I haven't bothered to add new byte codes since this approach does work. 13:51:46 it does, but it might complicate hardware implementation later. 13:51:48 At this point though, if I revised the byte code, I probably wouldn't have conditional jumps at all, just conditional calls as in my other language/vm (parable). 13:51:58 True enough 13:53:21 recommended reading in this area is Stack Machines The New Wave (just google it) and having a look at the J1 softcore. 13:53:40 But I don't have as much desire to do a hardware implementation as I once did. Ngaro itself can run on fairly limited/inexpensive hardware (arduino, pic32) 13:53:50 I've looked at that in the past 13:55:06 heck, I am tempted to make an Ngaro vm implementation in eForth on the J1 just to be able to run ngaro images too ;-) 13:58:05 There's an ans forth implementation that could serve as a starting point for that 14:02:34 have you come across, do not know what to call it, subwording? (that is colon definitions that can nest inside each other iirc) 14:07:22 Retro used to allow for that. I eventually dropped it because no one really used it. 14:09:00 I am curious how you implemented it 14:13:03 It was basically : being a compiler macro (essentially IMMEDIATE), and laying down a jump over the header if the compiler was already on 14:13:55 retro uses combined or split dictionary? 14:16:38 (figForth uses combined name and code dictionary while eForth has the name dictionary entries point to their code in the code dictionary) 14:17:17 Presently everything is mixed in a flat memory space 14:19:13 when you define a word its header with name gets appened into that memory before the code that implements the word? 14:20:35 Yes 14:21:21 well, it depends on the tradeoffs 14:21:22 --- join: PuercoPop (PuercoPop@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:feae:c11b) joined #forth 14:21:28 This will be more configurable in the next major retro release 14:25:52 in ngaro spec there are mentions at various instruction sections that the instruction implementation needs to decr the program counter if and after the instruction has modified it. 14:26:48 That's a side effect of keeping compatibility with the original implementation 14:26:52 whouldnt been easier to specify that first the instruction is fetched, then the pc is incr'ed and then the instr is handled? 14:27:02 oh, I see 14:27:40 (The spec was only written after a couple of implementations had been written) 14:28:06 --- join: andreina06v (~canaima@181.208.122.137) joined #forth 14:28:36 well the only diffrence that is observable is that the address stack (which I just call return stack) contains return addresses that are off by one, so to speak. 14:28:44 holiiiz a todos 14:29:04 quie es homnre en enta szala 14:30:21 andreina06v: english please 14:33:26 ahhh thought speak English speak Spanish sorry 14:33:27 good as are 14:35:01 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 14:35:47 okiiizzzz 14:35:50 --- part: andreina06v left #forth 14:36:25 --- quit: _spt2_ (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 14:39:54 uh, right 14:54:11 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-209-173.as43234.net) joined #forth 14:56:54 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:30:39 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 15:30:51 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@91.192.67.236) joined #forth 15:38:20 --- quit: _spt2_ (Quit: the Jupiter ACE has lost connection) 16:02:38 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 16:39:04 crc: hmm.. Ngaro images dont have the data stack, return stack, or the pc register saved. But the VMs always start at address zero, no? 16:39:43 That would be correct 16:42:14 --- join: klltkr (~klltkr@unaffiliated/klltkr) joined #forth 16:43:08 so one can be sneaky and have one routine to save them in the vm image by copying them first to memory, then put an call to the restore routine at address zero (saving the data that was there somewhere else first). The restore routine just copies the stacks back (fixing the word at address zero) and returns. 16:43:55 (effectively 'returing' to the caller of the save routine) 16:46:24 Yes, if that is desired 17:58:58 --- nick: klltkr -> klltkr[ORL] 18:45:35 --- quit: c00kiemon5ter (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 18:48:11 --- join: c00kiemon5ter (~c00kiemon@foss-aueb/coder/c00kiemon5ter) joined #forth 18:55:05 --- quit: c00kiemon5ter (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 18:57:31 --- join: c00kiemon5ter (~c00kiemon@foss-aueb/coder/c00kiemon5ter) joined #forth 19:30:12 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 20:21:36 --- join: noneofmynickswor (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-254.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:24:40 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-254.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:25:05 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:27:29 --- quit: noneofmynickswor (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:31:07 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@194.176.111.175) joined #forth 21:33:42 --- quit: MrM0bius (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:40:30 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:40:48 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host86-157-30-139.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 21:55:42 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 21:59:50 --- join: Kumul (~Kumul@adsl-72-50-84-254.prtc.net) joined #forth 22:00:21 --- quit: Kumul (Client Quit) 22:01:55 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-84-254.prtc.net) joined #forth 22:47:53 --- join: backer_ (~backer@user-387h3hl.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 22:50:59 --- quit: backer (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:57:26 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.06.08