00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.05.25 00:28:24 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-28-164-167.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 00:50:56 ehaliewicz: nice work :-) Also, I spotted the Sonic icon! 00:59:25 ehaliewicz, are you going to try to make a cartridge out of that? 01:04:47 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 01:13:48 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 01:15:10 MrMobius: well I have a flash card to test it on 01:15:21 impomatic: well, that's the emulator's icon 01:21:48 ehaliewicz: nice 01:22:16 ehaliewicz: and that's running on a Genesis emulator? 01:22:20 it is 01:23:17 you want a Megadrive Keyboard now ;-) 01:23:51 those do exist, but they're rare, and my genesis has a serial port on the back :-) 01:24:33 ehaliewicz: okay, so get something like an Arduino and program it to convert from a PS2 keyboard to serial 01:24:47 nice easy Sunday afternoon project for you :-) 01:25:39 I nearly bought one of these when the computer shop I worked in closed down, some 22 years ago -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amstrad_Mega_PC 01:25:56 that's a good idea, i think i have a beaglebone or something similar laying around here 01:26:03 never touched it though 01:26:51 I should record my Forth booting on the Mirage 01:27:38 beaglebone as a PS2 converter? why not a $2 mcu instead? 01:27:47 well, i already have one 01:28:03 http://little-scale.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/sega%20mega%20drive%20%2F%20genesis 01:28:19 might as well just run an aemulator on the beaglebone then and leave out the genesis 01:28:31 it's hard to compete with "got it lying around" on cost 01:29:14 thats true 01:29:23 ehaliewicz: what did you use to make the amimated gif? 01:29:25 maybe you could just use the PC to relay keys to the genesis 01:30:15 MrMobius: that's the other option I'm considering. in the end it's a lot more practical, but less cool than running on physical hardware :) 01:30:47 i understand. that was kind of my point though. it seems strange to use a 700mhz computer as a keyboard adapter for a 7mhz system 01:30:56 less cool i mean 01:31:08 impomatic: i used licecap to do the screen capture 01:31:14 it's windows only afaik 01:35:23 Thanks, I'll try that. 01:37:30 ehaliewicz, cool project though by the way. didnt mean to be discouraging about the keyboard. 01:37:53 MrMobius: no problem, thanks 01:38:02 hmm 01:38:03 i'll post on here as progress continues 01:38:15 wonder if you've got time to just bit-bang the PS2 interface on the megadrive 02:01:37 --- quit: MrMobius (Disconnected by services) 02:01:49 --- join: MrM0bius (~Joey@194.176.111.176) joined #forth 02:29:27 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 02:43:52 --- quit: MrM0bius (*.net *.split) 03:00:17 --- join: MrMobius (~Joey@194.176.111.135) joined #forth 03:01:51 oh aye 03:01:55 5-0 at the door 03:02:11 asking about the car that appears to have been abandoned at the foot of the road 03:02:29 yes yes, come in, *DO NOT PICK UP THE CAT* 03:02:33 so what does the thick twat do? 03:02:37 give you three guesses 03:03:24 <_spt_> and.? 03:04:18 ach it's fine, she's obviously in a cuddly mood and he's still got all his fingers 03:05:42 <_spt_> my kids many years ago used to make ours cat walk like robots.. 03:06:22 <_spt_> by putting empty smarties tubes over their legs.. 03:07:00 https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/1468_10151716780888799_664239353_n.jpg 03:07:05 ^ not an outside cat, apparently 03:13:11 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 03:21:17 --- quit: ehaliewicz (Remote host closed the connection) 03:30:14 --- quit: Azel (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 03:37:07 lol 03:37:10 I love cats 03:37:27 --- nick: republican_devil -> heart-playedwith 03:38:06 I am a hypocrit I realised tonight 03:40:21 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 03:40:59 I am trying to wrap my head around idea that forth is extensible to any domain 03:41:12 so it can do what perl etc. does 03:42:59 <_spt_> what are you doing? 03:43:55 sobering up 03:43:59 b4 bed 03:44:03 I am nto sure yet 03:44:14 with forth I dont even well know the basics yet 03:44:47 forth intrigues me 03:44:59 <_spt_> lol sobering up .. its lunch time . 03:45:44 345am in los angeles :) 03:46:08 so my (ex) gf by accident wlaks by subway at 3am with her pal and holding hand of strange guy 03:46:15 accident? 03:46:18 heh 03:46:26 I admit ima hypocrit 03:46:58 im such a ninny 03:47:04 I shouldnt giv one rats ass 03:48:49 just funny the show it to your face draam way women are 03:48:51 sigh 03:48:53 anyway 03:48:56 back to forth 03:49:11 is there a free forth that can make machine code excutibles liek c compiler can? 03:49:29 when I heard starflight was made in forth I was like AWESOMe 03:49:37 I played that game in 80s on pc 03:49:40 what a grea game 03:50:15 <_spt_> i don't know that game, I only play with the Jupiter ACE 03:52:08 heart-playedwith: you could easily compile Forth into machine code 03:52:17 heart-playedwith: do you know how it works, internally? 03:53:46 no 03:54:01 gcc compiles c into an executible that u can run 03:54:08 okay, go and grab a copy of jonesforth and a coffee, and come back when you've read it 03:54:10 liek down to assembler or something 03:54:11 :-D 03:54:12 someoen said gforth doesnt 03:54:21 jonesforth 03:54:34 ? 03:54:59 okay, ignore the typing-stuff-in bits for now 03:55:08 forth words are a linked list 03:55:16 the dictionary is a linked list 03:55:34 this is all a huge overgeneralisation 03:55:56 each word contains its name, a pointer to where to start running code, and then a block of code of some sort 03:56:07 do you know what a primitive is? 03:56:54 that's a word that's written in the host machine's own machine code 03:56:56 <_spt_> heart-playedwith: some books here might help http://www.jupiter-ace.co.uk/index_forth_books.html 03:57:47 lisp is lists as well 03:58:17 heart-playedwith: so for example, the word + might consist of "pop de; pop hl; add hl,de; push hl; NEXT;" 03:58:20 I saw a quote from mccarthy, where he ssaid that since ruby has to iterate to do something it is not where lisp was in 1960 03:58:35 NEXT is special, but we'll get to that 03:58:35 pointers 03:58:39 or something 03:58:44 ok 03:59:21 when you add two numbers, you call +, it pops the two things off the stack, adds 'em, and pushes the value back on the stack 03:59:47 so the address to make + do stuff points to the start of the code 04:00:11 there is also the inner interpreter, which walks down a list of addresses and jumps to them 04:00:19 NEXT is the word that finds the next address in the list 04:00:35 so there might be a word LIT which pushes a literal value on the stack 04:01:10 that's another primitive, another word written in machine code 04:01:24 ok 04:01:29 if you write a word that adds 2 to the top of the stack you might say : 2+ 2 + ; 04:01:54 internally, that word would compile to LIT, 0x0002, +, NEXT 04:02:33 where LIT, + and NEXT are actually numbers that are pointers to the entry point of those routines 04:02:35 with me so far? 04:02:55 heart-playedwith: this explanation is a primitive 04:03:00 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144218110.atnat0027.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 04:03:02 I am telling you step by step what is going on 04:03:13 if it wasn't, I'd just tell you "go and read this page, and come back when you're done" 04:03:33 when you use a definition, you say "go and do this word, and come back when you're done" 04:03:45 now 04:04:02 you can look inside your word definition 04:04:13 you could unwind LIT and + into machine code, couldn't you? 04:04:58 ok 04:05:20 ok 04:05:46 rather than just say "go and do LIT, pass it 0x0002, go and do +, go and do NEXT" you could say "ld hl, 0x0002; push hl; pop hl; pop de; add hl, de; push hl; NEXT" 04:05:54 now say I didn't want to bother with details of low level, can I program at a higher level using forth? 04:05:57 obviously that push hl; pop hl; could be factored out 04:06:25 but do you see how you could unwind those definitions into the primitives they consist of? 04:06:53 okay, a higher level implies a higher level of abstraction, so you'd create a dictionary that wraps the things you commonly want to do 04:08:16 heart-playedwith: for example in my synth firmware I have a definition for setting the filters 04:08:20 yes 04:08:36 what is synth 04:08:38 I can say "20 filter 0 cutoff" 04:08:47 synthesizer, for electronic music 04:08:48 out of curiosity, do most forths define as many words as possible in assembly or do they switch to froth once they have enough primitives? 04:08:53 <_spt_> I have a quick graphic which shows you how words are linked together www.jupiter-ace.co.uk/temp/Ace-word-header.png 04:08:58 MrMobius: depends what you're trying to do 04:09:24 gordonjcp, i just mean how the compiler works internally. not that it matters. just cruious. 04:09:27 heart-playedwith: that sets the cutoff frequency for voice 0's filter to 20 04:09:53 some people including linus torvalds said data structures, not algrithms are central to programming.....does forth have powerful enuf data structures? 04:09:57 MrMobius: in my 6809 Forth I tried to keep it in assembly as much as possible because at 1MHz you need all the help you can get 04:10:26 still amazing that 1mhz is 1 million things a second right? 04:10:36 I have 6 cpu on this box 04:10:41 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 04:10:43 each at 3.2giga hertz 04:11:15 and it seems constant going to disk, the slowest part of the computer, by firefox etc. is what slows things 04:11:23 heart-playedwith: I work with some CPUs that run at 32kHz and have 64 bytes of RAM 04:11:36 youd think the program would simply keep things in ram 04:11:41 this pc has 16G ram 04:11:56 wow that is a small computer1 04:11:57 PCs are boring though 04:12:06 gordonjcp, neat. do you have a link to your computer? 04:12:11 all kinds of pauses n stuff 04:12:19 MrMobius: nope, it's a bit uhm "specialised" 04:12:24 even on this monster I have running freebsd 10 04:12:40 oh. i mean you didnt put up pictures or a write up? 04:12:53 MrMobius: not for a commercial product, no 04:13:12 that would have a deleterious effect on my ability to make money off it, and keep my jpb 04:13:15 *job 04:13:22 when I read some jeff fox stuff about how huge computing power is now 04:13:31 how bloated eveything is 04:13:36 gordonjcp, so you sell it but not to random people on the internet? 04:13:36 I get kinda inspired 04:13:39 MrMobius: sensor management stuff that draws a couple of microwatts 04:13:56 fair enough. doesnt sound like a hobby computer then. 04:13:59 nope 04:14:42 MrMobius: I probably can't mention that the chips themselves cost in the high three figures apiece and are designed for some quite hostile environments 04:15:18 so 800$? 04:15:23 my pc cost about that 04:15:29 6x3.2ghz 04:15:32 16g ram 04:15:40 heart-playedwith: yup 04:15:55 1T disk (2x500g 04:15:58 ) 04:16:04 and this is a single 18-pin chip that costs the same, runs at 32kHz and has 64 bytes of RAM and 1K of flash 04:16:16 so why not buy my pc 04:16:18 instead 04:16:26 and make forth run on it or something 04:16:27 because it wouldn't work 04:16:31 k 04:16:32 hmmm 04:16:57 this chip is made out of "interesting stuff" and draws something in the region of 10Î¼W flat out 04:18:21 so almsot nothing 04:18:26 heart-playedwith: one Big Petroleum company I do bits and pieces for have support contracts that cost (as a quick back of an envelope calculation) as much as your PC every two weeks, for 25-year-old VAXStation 3100s 04:18:32 why so stingy on power consume? 04:18:46 because it has to run off a tiny battery for a long time 04:18:54 hmmm 04:19:12 so why dont they get the data outa the vax and somehow put it on a pc like mine 04:19:28 and like redo the app on the pc with gforth 04:19:39 for example 04:19:42 because certifying it would cost as much as your parent's house, per unit 04:19:43 ? 04:19:52 and is your PC likely to last 25 years? 04:19:58 not even 04:20:10 certify it by who? 04:20:15 to do a job for 25 years? 04:20:17 woa 04:20:27 and to ensure it cannot possibly break down under any circumstances 04:20:32 and that the code is utterly bug-free 04:20:44 woa 04:20:44 or at least, any bugs are known and unlikely to affect operation 04:21:05 jeff fox said that forth done right is utterly bug free 04:21:30 it kinda contrasted with lisper paul graham who said he did exploratory programming 04:21:41 and said lisp make the cost of bugs low 04:22:01 and if it ever does break down, it won't turn a chunk of Scotland the size of Los Angeles into a smoking pit 04:22:23 you have to be quite careful with petrochem sites 04:23:10 heh 04:23:27 it can all get away from you very quickly 04:23:37 cf. Piper A, Buncefield, Deepwater Horizon 04:23:42 at least the latter didn't go on fire 04:23:46 its most excelent to hear that programming that has nothing to do with java or ruby rails is productive and awesome 04:24:14 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMZ4pYHAQV8 04:24:29 looks like shitty video-of-a-video 04:24:34 but I remember that being on the news 04:24:48 incidentally, this is why we have a pretty strong Health and Safety culture here 04:25:03 that was caused by people not following established H&S policies 04:25:53 what happened was that people had got a bit blase about handing back their permit to work 04:26:11 so jobs weren't being adequately tracked 04:26:40 a bit of pipe that was supposed to be replaced hadn't been fitted and a blanking plug had been bolted over the end of a pipe, and this had been noted on the permit to work 04:27:00 it didn't actually get read, though, and since the permit office had the permit back they just assumed that the job was finished 04:27:06 and what do they say about "assume"? 04:27:10 so 04:27:32 when the system was pressurised up with gas at roughly 1000 times atmospheric pressure, the plug blew out 04:27:38 that's the first bit of fire you see 04:27:48 this is Quite A Bad Thing 04:28:06 this damaged other stuff, and oil from the oil well leaked all over the place and went on fire 04:28:48 the *second* explosion was where a puddle of oil under a safety cutoff valve (and we're talking about pipes wide enough for you to crawl through) cooked up the valve enough that it melted and burst 04:29:07 that released gas again at 1000 ats into the rest of the fire, from several miles of pipe 04:29:10 whoomph 04:29:25 like I said, you have to be kind of careful with petrochem sites 04:29:41 heart-playedwith: this is why you need to be really, really sure about your code :-D 04:31:12 woa 04:31:29 culture of profit and not giving a shit 04:31:36 thats the bad sign fo the times 04:31:57 everyone so not legit and thinking they dont have to work hard and work is for losers 04:32:07 that they are lazy and sloppy 04:32:12 and shit happens 04:33:07 there must be a way to change peoples minds 04:33:14 to influence them in a good direction 04:36:10 scary to work in these places 04:36:12 well, Piper A did certainly influence things 04:36:16 gt bured or blown up 04:36:36 the biggest cause of workplace deaths in the UK *now* is harbours 04:37:36 heart-playedwith: if you want to see how you can *really* screw up writing software, go and read about the Therac-25 system 04:37:54 http://courses.cs.vt.edu/professionalism/Therac_25/Therac_1.html 04:38:13 heart-playedwith: that will scare the shit out of you, and prevent you ever working around medical equipment or computer software :-D 04:44:36 <_spt_> I thought the biggest fatal injuries to workers was in 04:44:36 <_spt_> agriculture 04:44:36 <_spt_> with 29 in 2013 04:44:57 no, we've got that down quite a bit now 04:46:34 burning people 04:46:39 lol 04:46:42 bastards 04:46:51 heart-playedwith: shitty software 04:47:06 soem atomic power advocates showed me how atomic power is least deaths of any power source 04:47:12 heart-playedwith: your shitty software could kill someone 04:47:17 :( 04:47:28 heart-playedwith: got to be careful, ejh 04:47:29 *eh 04:47:34 my ex girl waked by subway I was eating at 3am 04:47:37 accient? 04:47:40 holding hand of some guy 04:47:48 yep 04:47:48 meh 04:47:54 you can't step in the same river twice 04:47:56 i am hypocrit 04:48:09 I went to massage place 2 day ago 04:48:13 it was awesome 04:48:20 same river twice, I heard that saying b4 04:48:21 hmm 04:49:34 Heraclitus 04:51:33 would you ever use forth for cgi website kinda stuff? 04:51:52 me? no 04:51:55 I use Python for that 04:55:48 now why can forth not extend to web? 04:55:59 abstract away annoying parts of web etc? 04:56:12 well, it's generally not very good at dealing with strings 04:56:27 hm 05:01:02 python..... 05:01:18 was it grok? soem web tool in python like zope3 05:05:26 I use flask 05:09:58 I have vagely heard of that 05:10:00 heart-playedwith: anyway, at least if you screw up with web dev probably the worst that'll happen is you'll leak someone's password or bank details 05:10:03 they'll shout a bit 05:10:14 --- quit: asie (Remote host closed the connection) 05:10:17 the bank will refund them any fraudulent payments 05:10:31 they shouldn't use the same password on multiple sites *anyway* 05:10:46 I lost password for my yahoo account 05:10:47 email 05:10:50 and you haven't turned some poor cancer patient into pulled pork 05:10:59 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 05:11:10 and the email it sends to when you goto help, I forgot that password its been years 05:11:16 so IM screwed 05:11:38 not sure what to do 05:13:01 lol 05:13:06 pulled pork 05:13:07 lol 05:35:29 --- quit: heart-playedwith (Remote host closed the connection) 06:05:09 --- quit: DGASAU (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 06:07:13 --- quit: asie 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join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@98.255.30.38) joined #forth 10:32:38 --- log: started forth/14.05.25 10:32:38 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 10:32:38 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | isforth.com | forthfreak.net | http://forthworks.com/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com' 10:32:38 --- topic: set by I440r!~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com on [Thu Jan 02 15:51:09 2014] 10:32:38 --- names: list (clog joneshf-laptop Zarutian mnemnion ASau` daowee_ MrM0bius DGASAU _spt_ true-grue dkordic goingretro impomatic backer bbloom nop0x07bc irsol dch yunfan tangentstorm cataska joneshf jimt danfinch aksatac_ Zag enthos dzho malyn bluekelp crc djinni nisstyre nighty^_ koisoke_ Guest25077 john_metcalf ttmrichter gordonjcp KipIngram bstates karswell carc TodPunk bjorkintosh C-Keen Adeon yiyus rprimus Anarch) 10:37:35 --- join: asie (~textual@178235032161.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 10:37:59 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 10:42:59 --- 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Probably rebooting or something.) 12:56:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 12:56:35 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:02:06 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144217099.atnat0026.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 13:23:18 --- join: _spt2_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-220-230.as43234.net) joined #forth 13:26:24 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 13:27:05 --- quit: _spt_ (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 13:33:59 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 13:40:48 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 14:15:42 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 14:20:55 --- quit: _spt2_ (Quit: gone) 14:28:45 --- quit: irsol (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 14:38:18 --- part: xyh left #forth 14:53:07 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 14:55:43 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:57:44 --- join: irsol (~irsol@unaffiliated/contempt) joined #forth 14:59:12 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:02:45 --- quit: MrM0bius (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 15:03:51 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:04:15 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 15:32:28 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 16:03:03 --- join: ehaliewicz (~user@50-0-50-2.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) joined #forth 16:35:02 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-86-193.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:07:33 --- join: daowee (~daowee@m37-199-124-89.cust.tele2.se) joined #forth 17:11:09 --- quit: daowee_ (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:12:38 --- join: daowee_ (~daowee@m37-2-200-71.cust.tele2.se) joined #forth 17:12:40 --- quit: daowee (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 17:22:26 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:22:35 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:29:38 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 18:13:50 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-4-101.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 19:11:41 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:12:09 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:26:26 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:26:49 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:40:33 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:40:53 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 20:13:16 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 20:53:21 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host86-157-30-139.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 20:57:38 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 21:14:37 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 21:19:37 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 21:37:42 --- quit: bluekelp (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 21:41:15 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@2001:470:1:41:d44f:ca14:a2a6:b722) joined #forth 21:54:20 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 22:03:27 --- join: ASau` (~user@46.114.8.100) joined #forth 22:06:14 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22:10:33 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144217099.atnat0026.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 22:20:53 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host86-157-30-139.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 22:39:34 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 23:23:53 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 23:56:54 --- quit: dkordic (Quit: Ex-Chat) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.05.25