00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.05.19 00:13:36 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 00:25:12 --- join: xyh (~user@2001:250:3002:5550:5642:49ff:fe5f:39f7) joined #forth 01:26:09 --- part: xyh left #forth 01:39:31 --- join: protist (~protist@9.225.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz) joined #forth 01:47:38 --- join: DGASAU (~user@p50993595.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 01:50:21 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:52:33 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 02:18:28 --- join: Mat3 (~Mat@91-64-127-6-dynip.superkabel.de) joined #forth 02:18:35 Good Day 02:27:16 Is it? 02:33:25 --- quit: protist (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 02:40:22 of course 03:43:45 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95.28.245.227) joined #forth 04:22:28 --- quit: pon1980 (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 04:27:31 --- join: nop0x07bc (~pon1980@h107n8-aepv-d7.ias.bredband.telia.com) joined #forth 04:42:10 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined 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#forth 13:43:15 --- quit: nop0x07bc (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:51:56 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:54:42 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:55:03 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 14:07:10 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 14:10:24 --- join: nop0x07bc (~pon1980@h107n8-aepv-d7.ias.bredband.telia.com) joined #forth 14:14:34 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~Lawrence@93-43-164-5.ip92.fastwebnet.it) joined #forth 14:15:03 hello 14:15:36 according to ans forth 94, #tib is deprecated 14:16:22 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.17.29) joined #forth 14:16:23 how do I change the characters in the buffer then? 14:16:31 *the character count 14:22:26 it probably depends on your forth implementation - maybe there is no way 14:23:27 it depends on the Forth implementation I guess 14:23:48 uh 14:23:51 that's bad 14:24:54 why is that bad? 14:25:20 some forth implementations may do Bad Things(tm) if they're not setup to support this. it might have been deprecated to support systems that didn't need this to be mutable 14:25:29 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 14:25:30 (apart from lol ANS Forth) 14:26:20 if it's not fig it's not forth 14:26:27 I'm trying to make my forth implementation 14:26:41 and I wondered how should I handle that 14:27:12 do you need to? 14:27:26 well, it is part of the Forth 83 standard 14:27:37 the interpreter needs to 14:27:45 right, but don't let it stand in the way of getting it running 14:28:28 an implementation that works and works well is far better than an implementation that is 100% standards compliant but hasn't been written because you are still struggling with the language lawyering 14:28:50 what is #tib? 14:28:59 concensus here seems to be that the standard is optional :) 14:29:28 i mean, even CM didn't follow the standard with colorForth/etc, right? 14:30:02 gordonjcp: standard compliance can be achieved together with good code 14:30:41 standards are overrated 14:31:25 I like the idea that standard compliant code would run just fine on my implementation 14:32:12 ErhardtMundt: how is your implementation? write in what? 14:32:18 sounds like you want Python, then 14:32:23 ErhardtMundt: I do not see any reason for excluding #tib in your own Forth if you found it useful. If this word is not part of ANS Forth, compliciant programs will not depend on it ?!?? 14:32:34 Forth is absolutely *astounding* for small highly-specific systems 14:32:52 I just kind of don't see huge portability as much of a goal 14:33:05 xyh: x86 assembly, for now 14:33:11 I'm unlikely to want to port my Forth electronic ignition firmware across to my synthesizer 14:33:21 ErhardtMundt: which assembly? 14:33:32 ErhardtMundt: which assembler? 14:33:38 xyh: nasm syntax, x86 architecture 14:33:42 nasm 14:34:47 gordonjcp: standards are there for a reason 14:34:59 ErhardtMundt: yes, mainly to secure funding for standards bodies 14:36:05 well, I admit that forth without a standard would still be a great language 14:36:29 I never saw it from that point of view 14:36:29 if it looks approximately like forth, it's standard 14:36:53 the whole point of developing in Forth is that you start with standardish Forth then deviate from it in a way that suits your requirement 14:37:01 ANS is a *formal specification*, not a implementation standard like F83- it does not define language internals 14:37:16 oh 14:37:23 the *astonishingly* useful thing about Forth is that you can just smash bits off it with a hammer and weld other bits on until it fits 14:38:49 ErhardtMundt: case in point, in both my ignition firmware and my synth firmware I didn't even bother writing an outer interpreter 14:38:58 i think teh standard can help *if* implementations agree on the exact semantics/side-effects of words - bc that could get really hairy if you're "borrowing code" from somewhere and importing the bugs 14:39:03 there's no way to read a line of input and parse it into words 14:39:17 is it still Forth? 14:39:23 but embedded systems are often very specific so reuse might be less than, say, the web world 14:39:47 I see 14:39:58 the definitions *do* have normal word headers, so if I ever get my arse in gear to write the outer interpreter and all its associated guff it should work 14:41:07 --- quit: Mat3 (Quit: Verlassend) 14:45:07 ErhardtMundt: and it is much more fun to ignore standards and traditions :) to make your own design 14:45:46 xyh: I'm kinda doing that designing my own internal system 14:45:52 but, yeah 14:46:03 I should use my own wordset as well 14:59:07 ErhardtMundt: !!! #TIB = number of char of terminal input buffer. how you going to use this word ? you want to write ``readChar'' function in forth but not in nasm ?? 14:59:44 xyh: the interpreter is going to ACCEPT in order to refill 15:00:12 and I need to store the result of that ACCEPT to know when to refill again 15:05:01 https://scontent-a-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1.0-9/10256419_10152442622478799_487717510679000117_n.jpg 15:05:03 oops 15:05:17 excuse the mixer cat 15:06:19 dj meow 15:07:00 cats are surprisingly good tape ops 15:07:52 haha 15:08:30 --- quit: bluekelp (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 15:08:52 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@2001:470:1:41:d424:8f66:d565:3b43) joined #forth 15:10:13 ErhardtMundt: I were wondering why I have not meet this function , and found out there is a bug ! 15:11:30 what bug? 15:12:23 ``no refilling'' bug ... I am stupid ... 15:12:47 about my implementation 15:13:11 oh 15:13:43 xyh: I found an awesome blog 15:13:45 so inspiring 15:13:46 http://www.retroprogramming.com/2012/03/itsy-forth-1k-tiny-compiler.html 15:14:47 * tangentstorm copied that out by hand and looked up each word as he went along. 15:22:08 :-D 15:22:41 ErhardtMundt: https://www.refheap.com/85649 my interpreter in fasm 15:35:17 --- quit: bluekelp (Quit: hasta) 15:36:25 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@2001:470:1:41:d424:8f66:d565:3b43) joined #forth 15:41:24 --- quit: bluekelp (Quit: hasta) 15:42:43 `interpret' and `compile' are two functions, I really think there should not be two modes in the interpreter ... Squeezing two functions into one function ... 15:42:53 --- join: bluekelp (~bluekelp@2001:470:1:41:d424:8f66:d565:3b43) joined #forth 15:44:21 xyh: are you working on a common executable running on an existing os? 15:45:32 and, why are you using fasm? 15:45:58 for fasm is cool 15:46:43 which were your criteria? 15:46:59 did you think about nasm? 15:47:00 ErhardtMundt: an ELF on linux 64 15:47:40 oh 15:47:41 ErhardtMundt: just cool ... 15:47:53 so you've got to handle alignment issues 15:48:00 ErhardtMundt: you are not running on linux ? 15:48:29 do you mean the layer I'm planning to run my forth interpreter on? 15:48:37 yeah 15:49:11 my target is x86 real mode 15:49:21 so I'm going with dos com file for now 15:49:38 my aim is native x86 real mode code 15:49:47 currently 15:51:46 :) so you can boot your forth without OS in the future. I would like to learn that 15:53:07 I would jump to long-mode first 15:55:59 I'm trying with the simplest approach first 15:56:43 working in other than real mode implies setting up interrupt vectors and stuff 15:57:04 I'd rather stay focused on the interpreter code 15:57:43 yeah, running on linux is more simple 15:59:13 well, once you wrote a wrap for the core part of your interpreter 15:59:18 ErhardtMundt: a good reading for you! http://www.figuk.plus.com/byof.htm 15:59:31 it's simple with dos as well 15:59:46 oh, thanks xyh 16:01:26 xyh: so a cell is 64bit on your forth? 16:03:52 yeah, a little waste 16:05:48 xyh: did you plan to provide any network "word"? 16:08:26 ErhardtMundt: i do not know a lot about `network', but I will learn :) , my code contain a lot of Chinese notes now, I do not dare to open it ... 16:09:13 it would be a problem only in the very case you're not chinese nor you can read that 16:09:25 ErhardtMundt: if you would like to ignore the chinese notes, I can share it now 16:09:35 ErhardtMundt: i am chinese 16:10:32 I meant to be ironic 16:10:51 ? 16:11:13 ok 16:11:15 --- join: saml_ (~saml@pool-71-190-4-101.nycmny.east.verizon.net) joined #forth 16:11:32 I'd had never thaught you were chinese actually 16:11:45 hehe 16:12:06 is that code online? 16:12:28 yeah 16:13:24 ErhardtMundt: wait 16:13:45 ok 16:14:03 https://bitbucket.org/repo/all?name=xiaolinguist 16:14:51 ErhardtMundt: `xiao' means little in Chinese, so it is little linguist 16:15:07 oh, I love those kanji 16:15:24 if you call those the same as the Japanese 16:16:41 no, `han' `zi' in chinese, `zi' means character 16:17:27 they're so cool 16:17:40 ErhardtMundt: hehe, do you use emacs ? 16:17:48 sometimes 16:18:21 only when I'm on linux/bsd 16:18:38 there is a mode for my language 16:18:45 I saw that 16:18:51 interesting, really 16:19:04 are you a confident elisper? 16:19:25 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 16:19:44 no, I am a good schemer, but bad elisper. 16:20:03 oh 16:20:14 I wrote an extension for guile years ago 16:20:44 you are the first reader of my code now! haha 16:21:46 well, I'm staring at those hanzi for the moment 16:22:11 well, I will write english documentation soon. 16:38:31 xyh: I'm planning to port my code to run on a 6502 16:39:11 that'd be awesome to have it on my old C64! 16:47:36 ErhardtMundt: that's cool !! I would like to try something other than x86, but not condition. 16:49:33 what do you mean? 16:57:42 ErhardtMundt: sorry. I mean no conditions. 16:58:14 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-72-50-87-207.prtc.net) joined #forth 16:58:29 if you're looking for hardware, you can try raspberry pi, for instance 16:58:48 which gives you an ARM architecture 16:58:58 or try with MCU 17:00:17 if you're interested in electronics 17:02:55 ErhardtMundt: great web site ! thx :) 17:03:12 you're welcome 17:04:34 --- quit: dkcl (Remote host closed the connection) 17:08:36 yes, and if you do a ARM forth w/thumb support, you can help me figure out what's not working with mine :) 17:10:26 bluekelp: what's the issue? 17:11:17 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:15:30 when i move the wor definition from flash to ram it breaks - i suspect it's a poitner de-reference issue but it works fine for flash-located words 17:15:53 so either i'm getting *really* lucky with where in flash the words _all_ line up or there's somethign else going on w/the cpu i don't understand 17:16:00 word* definition 17:16:02 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 17:17:11 mmh 17:17:29 thumb has just been a major pain w/forth bc of soem gcc/asm particularities and having to sometimes want the thumb addr for a word and other times need the "logical" addr for it (like when de-referencing the forth word-list from memory) 17:18:19 bluekelp.com/stm32forth.zip - it's not on github yet 17:18:45 mainly bc i'm embarassed by how bad my ARM asm is and hot long it's taken me to get a non-working inner interpeter this far 17:19:25 how* long - i'll rewrite the commits to make it look like i did it all in a few hours before "publishing" it ;) 17:20:37 I know nothing of ARM assembler currently 17:20:52 but I'm buying a rpi within a month 17:21:00 and start playing with it 17:26:17 i think rpi is thumb. i tried some basic arm asm on rpi but it misbehaved so ttmrichter recommended the stm32-f4 instead 17:26:29 i got farther w/it but am stuck here now 17:26:56 the tutorials for asm on rpi i was using resulted in code that never worked reliably for me, so beware of what you find online 17:27:16 iirc it was a "course" written by an intern at an otherwise respectible uni 17:27:57 uh, that's weird 17:28:34 i think i went back and tried the thumb fixes i did on the stm32 but they didn't fix the rpi issues i had 17:28:42 I'll look for some info before I buy it 17:29:00 it's fun to play with - i recommend getting one 17:29:08 even if you don't do asm/forth on it 17:29:13 --- quit: Zarutian (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 17:29:24 you could always write one in c and reverse eng the asm from that - 17:29:31 hrm that's not a bad idea :) 17:30:12 though i was trying for "bare metal" asm on the rpi which meant i may not have setup the chip properly or encountered some weird interrupt i wasn't expecting, etc. 17:30:12 I like to play with electronics as well 17:30:40 rpi is fun for digital stuff but beware that it doesn't do analog - which is where a lot of the fun sensors come in 17:31:02 so you'll need a ADC board/chip to do that - or try something like the stm32-f4 17:31:06 so the idea to have a real "pc" with something like the rpi GPIO is great for me 17:31:16 -but i don't think anyone has run linux on the stm chips - that i've seen 17:31:42 do you have any link? 17:31:56 for the stm? 17:32:02 or the rpi asm stuff? 17:32:10 stm 17:32:32 http://www.st.com/web/catalog/tools/FM116/SC959/SS1532/PF252419 17:32:52 you can get them via mouse, digikey, etc. tho not sure if you're in US or outside 17:33:19 they seem pretty available so shouldn't be an issue - not as powerful as the rpi but cheap and has ADC 17:33:22 thanks 17:33:27 the f4 board also has some cool extras 17:34:03 ignore their toolchain - get openocd and a cross-compiler gcc for arm - i've been happy with that 17:34:15 I'm in Europe 17:34:33 very bottom of page has european distributors 17:34:47 and some who will ship world-wide or have distro setup - but you should be golden 18:07:06 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:10:58 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 18:11:09 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:19:43 --- quit: jonasbits (Quit: jonasbits) 18:20:54 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:23:04 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 19:36:17 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 20:12:57 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20:14:28 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:28:56 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 20:39:17 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 20:40:43 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:40:57 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:07:31 --- join: mnemnion_ (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:07:32 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:14:15 --- quit: saml_ (Quit: Leaving) 21:24:13 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 21:34:07 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:37:17 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:37:27 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:52:24 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-26-80-104.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 22:01:21 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:03:21 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 22:06:02 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@089144208007.atnat0017.highway.a1.net) joined #forth 22:18:45 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 22:20:46 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 22:39:29 --- join: mnemnion_ (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:42:11 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 22:55:18 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:55:29 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:26:08 --- quit: mnemnion (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:26:10 --- join: mnemnion_ (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 23:29:28 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.05.19