00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.03.19 00:04:49 --- join: Eth|cal (~sam@139.216.253.31) joined #forth 00:14:13 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 00:32:25 --- join: itsy (~john_metc@87.112.13.30) joined #forth 00:35:24 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 00:37:01 --- quit: itsy (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:37:05 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-68-203-183-77.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 00:37:09 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@87.112.13.30) joined #forth 00:49:41 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:49:53 --- join: TodPunk (Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 00:56:23 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:07:53 --- join: DGASAU` (~user@pD954C486.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 01:10:41 --- quit: DGASAU (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 01:23:51 --- quit: pvt_petey (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 01:29:12 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:29:24 --- join: TodPunk (~Tod@50-198-177-186-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 01:34:54 --- join: pvt_petey (~pvt_petey@host-92-16-158-80.as13285.net) joined #forth 02:21:04 --- nick: DGASAU` -> DGASAU 02:30:52 --- quit: mark4 (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 02:34:33 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:39:06 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 02:41:43 --- quit: mnemnion_ (Remote host closed the connection) 02:43:13 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-68-203-183-77.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 03:46:33 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-28-239-82.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 04:42:48 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:47:21 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:50:49 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@87.112.13.30) joined #forth 04:52:00 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:52:01 --- quit: pvt_petey (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 04:52:14 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 04:55:41 --- join: pvt_petey (~pvt_petey@host-92-16-158-80.as13285.net) joined #forth 05:30:43 --- quit: pvt_petey (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 05:55:11 --- join: ricky_ricardo (~ricky_ric@71-209-190-83.phnx.qwest.net) joined #forth 05:55:34 --- part: ricky_ricardo left #forth 06:11:51 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 06:14:38 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 06:15:00 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 06:42:24 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 06:46:47 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:57:12 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 08:04:19 --- join: impomatic_ (~chatzilla@30.74.125.91.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 08:06:54 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:06:58 --- nick: impomatic_ -> impomatic 08:06:58 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 08:11:14 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 08:14:33 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 08:20:05 --- join: madphilosopher (~madphilos@172.219.225.2) joined #forth 08:28:11 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 08:48:57 --- join: nisstyre (~yourstrul@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 09:18:03 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:05:05 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 10:37:38 --- join: pvt_petey (~pvt_petey@host-92-16-158-80.as13285.net) joined #forth 10:39:06 --- quit: fantazo (Quit: Verlassend) 11:12:37 --- join: spoofer (~cruella@72.10.28.164) joined #forth 11:15:20 --- quit: joneshf-work (Remote host closed the connection) 11:16:05 --- quit: DGASAU (Remote host closed the connection) 11:17:15 --- join: DGASAU (~user@pD954C486.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 11:24:46 --- join: joneshf-work (~joneshf@167.222-62-69.ftth.swbr.surewest.net) joined #forth 11:30:14 --- quit: DGASAU (Remote host closed the connection) 11:31:41 --- join: DGASAU (~user@pD954C486.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 11:46:09 yunfan: I think it's pretty telling that nobody uses T9 anymore. ;) 12:04:25 oh man 12:04:33 it's cropped up in the latest Motorola radio firmware 12:04:42 T9 as in predictive text? 12:06:46 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:12:22 gordonjcp: Using a DTMF pad as a replacement for a proper keyboard. 12:12:36 Predictive text is a feature to make it easier to use, but it's not a hard requirement. 12:13:01 kc5tja: yes 12:13:07 kc5tja: it's *horrible*... 12:13:20 although we used to think it was great 12:13:34 It made for some seriously amusing texts at times. ;) 12:13:40 yes 12:14:01 mototrbo has text messaging, and in the newest version 2 firmware it has something nearly-but-not-quite T9 12:28:00 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@30.74.125.91.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 13:17:54 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-226-186.prtc.net) joined #forth 13:28:23 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 13:42:03 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@97-83-155-122.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com) joined #forth 14:18:42 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:37:17 --- join: ASau (~user@46.114.197.110) joined #forth 15:18:54 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:57:17 In roughly three hours hence, I'll be presenting Gophercloud to a Go users meetup of about 250 people. 15:57:26 I'm kind of nervous. 16:00:17 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@host-92-12-212-126.as43234.net) joined #forth 16:00:18 --- quit: _spt_ (Changing host) 16:00:18 --- join: _spt_ (~Jaat@unaffiliated/-spt-/x-5624824) joined #forth 16:03:45 go users ... /me shakes his head 16:04:08 people who actually think interactivity is not something worth having in a runtime 16:04:22 I will never understand that (outside microcontrollers) 16:08:01 Interactivity on a server is disastrous. 16:08:05 Production server, that is. 16:08:12 (useful on a test- or staging server, though) 16:08:18 Still, it's not that big a deal. 16:08:28 Forth is also not nearly as interactive as its advocates love to proclaim. 16:08:40 The days of self-hosted Forth environments haven't existed since mid-80s. 16:09:07 Modern Forth environments are, in my decades of using Forth, best used like any other -- you write unit tests, they run against production code, at load-time. 16:09:08 somehow people who program in C, C++, Java and Pascal get on with their lives without having a repl 16:09:10 Then, you quit. 16:09:43 Even if you do have a self-hosted Forth environment, you have to remember to MARKER your dictionary, so you don't run out of memory during your development process. 16:09:50 (or its equivalent -- typically FORGET or whatever.) 16:09:51 right 16:10:09 And that's all assuming your dictionary is in a working state. 16:10:31 If you have a stray pointer in a ! operator somewhere, there's a good chance it's not, and then MARKER destroys your runtime environment, ruining all your hard work. 16:10:36 (yes, been there, done that too.) 16:10:56 a sane forth development cycle involves blowing stuff away and recompiling from source quite frequently because otherwise you could have accidentally screwed something up invisibly 16:11:22 at which point the "interactive" part is just handy for debugging 16:11:26 Exactly. Forth's strength is in how quickly you can blow away your dictionary and start over from scratch. 16:11:43 And, also, its hyperstatic global envrionment. 16:12:49 the hyperstatic global environment is good in that it is simple (semantically and in implementation) and encourages programs to be written in reading order, but that same feature actually makes strictly interactive development rather clumsy 16:12:52 As far as Go is concerned, I maintain two SDKs written in Go, and have zero complaints. As compiled languages go, it's lightning fast, and rivals Forth in my ability to run tests and diagnose problems. 16:13:48 RodgerTheGreat: Beyond being simple, it also allows for context-aware programming, which eliminates the need to usingHorriblyLongSymbolNames for lots of things, even in the presence of vocabularies. 16:14:12 that is true 16:14:41 but it also means you can have hilariously subtle errors which stem from accidentally clobbering a name and then using the wrong word 16:15:24 I won't contest people run into that issue, but so far, I've not had a problem. 16:15:34 Usually that kind of issue comes up in unit testing. :) 16:15:38 and is solved early. 16:15:52 But, it does make generic programming quite nice. 16:16:10 I think I've done it twice, and each time took a fair amount of time to track down 16:16:24 if they tried to make me maintain production systems that didn't support interactivity I'd find a new job 16:16:41 RodgerTheGreat: http://sam-falvo.github.io/kestrel/2013/12/08/programming-without-lambdas/ -- Software as Logical Hardware -- isn't possible without it. 16:16:51 technomancy: You wouldn't be missed. 16:16:56 technomancy: do you mean to say that you are monkeying with things interactively on a production server? 16:17:02 RodgerTheGreat: of course 16:17:13 Not only would you not be missed, you wouldn't have time to quit. 16:17:22 We'd fire you so fast you'd break the sound barrier. 16:18:09 editing things in production is like cutting out your car's seatbelt because it gets in your way 16:18:30 RodgerTheGreat: sure, if your tooling isn't built to support it 16:18:40 then popping the hood and replacing the spark plugs while you're on the freeway, not paying attention to the road. 16:18:41 interactivity during development and debugging? Powerful tools. Interactivity as a way to sidestep good process? Unwise. 16:18:45 Even if it is built to support it. 16:18:52 RodgerTheGreat: so... you never debug in production? 16:18:59 no I do not 16:19:08 how do you... find actual bugs? 16:19:21 More than once I've seen sites go hard-down for hours due to a seemingly simple slip-up at an interactive prompt. 16:19:44 by looking at logs, constructing reproduction cases and then fixing them 16:19:54 working with async distributed systems by definition involves problems you can't reproduce on your laptop 16:20:31 technomancy: First, you verify (on production) that a bug exists at all. Assuming it is there, you then replicate the bug again on a staging environment. Unit tests are written to cover bugs reported by users. Then you write the code to fix the bug, test again on staging, and then and only then do you push to production assuming tests pass. 16:20:48 kc5tja: exactly 16:20:50 kc5tja: you're lucky to live in a world where everything fits into your tidy boxes =) 16:21:16 if you can't simulate the problem on your laptop you build a damn cluster for staging 16:21:47 RodgerTheGreat: simulating traffic on a production scale is incredibly difficult once you grow to a certain level 16:22:05 bugs are very rarely irreducibly complex, dude 16:22:06 even then simulated traffic won't result in the same edge cases as production traffic 16:22:49 well... when you're processing billions of messages a day, very rare situations happen all the time 16:23:06 technomancy: Been in the industry for over 25 years, worked at CariNet, Google, Attributor, Ning, Rackspace, and now Mailgun (a Rackspace acquisition). I've consulted for more companies still, whove come and gone over the years. Not once have I met a bug I couldn't reproduce in staging. 16:23:23 kc5tja: cool story, bro 16:23:34 --- quit: _spt_ (Quit: gone) 16:23:43 "bro". I see. 16:25:18 facebook engineer spotted 16:25:23 Heheh 17:07:53 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 17:08:32 --- quit: spoofer (Quit: Leaving) 17:08:33 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:12:28 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:19:04 --- quit: pvt_petey () 17:26:18 wb RodgerTheGreat! :) 17:26:25 hello 17:26:35 how are things 17:27:46 good here. doing some android work. 17:31:25 aka waiting patiently for android studio to do anything. reminds me of the 90's. 17:48:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 17:54:36 I'm struggling to maintain motivation to complete my PhD and working on an educational video game 17:58:49 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 18:13:14 RodgerTheGreat: Correction. Facebook "engineer" spotted. 18:13:41 it was implied 18:13:43 but yes 18:27:59 I guess if you grow your big ball of mud code base you can wind up with literally undiagnosable bugs. 18:28:16 Well, undiagnosable but for this diagnosis: "You failed to do the right thing in building your application." 18:28:55 "I found religion; our entire codebase applies the God Object pattern" 18:31:04 Hahaha, I like that one. 19:31:51 --- join: kumul (~mool@66-50-97-135.prtc.net) joined #forth 19:54:39 ttps://wx.qq.com/cgi-bin/mmwebwx-bin/webwxcheckurl?uin=1529789020&sid=SlTG1F95Zh5fVHaZ&skey=7D3F01EE1F9DAE08A8FD3D6417C4CD690805A3C5C870F2AC&deviceid=e834044422964430&opcode=2&requrl=http%3A%2F%2Fmodernfarmer.com%2F2014%2F03%2Ffloating-farms%2F%3Futm_source%3Drss%26utm_medium%3Drss%26utm_campaign%3Dfloating-farms&scene=1&username=chuangyi_0181 i am very glad to see this come true 19:55:02 used to thought this when i heard the news of graphene filter for desalination 19:59:44 uhh, is the page mordern farmer or wx.qq? 20:00:55 oop sorry http://modernfarmer.com/2014/03/floating-farms/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=floating-farms 20:01:18 thanks 20:01:44 i pasted it and it just searched. but at least i have something to do now 20:03:18 i think the econemy power might be translated to those pacific countries 20:03:53 since they have the cheapest supply of water/land/power/tranfering 20:55:05 --- join: bbloom (~bbloom@cpe-68-173-7-82.nyc.res.rr.com) joined #forth 21:38:58 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:21:50 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 23:07:39 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 23:25:47 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.03.19