00:00:00 --- log: started forth/14.02.20 00:11:46 --- part: kc5tja left #forth 00:39:06 --- quit: kumool (Quit: Leaving) 00:50:28 Say WHAT?! 00:51:00 Esperanto is only marginally easier for Asian language speakers to learn than any of the natural European languages. 00:51:11 It's still filled to the brim with notions that don't exist in Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. 00:51:52 Grammatical gender. Verb conjugation. Hell, even inflection. 01:00:55 http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/ 01:01:42 "If Esperanto vanished from existence, nothing of value would be lost [...] Or the UN could hire a linguist or two and get a language purpose-built, the way Hollywood now routinely does for fantasy movies!" 01:37:58 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 02:26:39 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 02:30:20 --- join: aranhoide (~aranhoide@69.Red-83-57-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 02:34:42 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 02:38:40 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 02:58:30 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:03:19 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:05:52 --- join: nop0x07bc (~pon1980@h107n8-aepv-d7.ias.bredband.telia.com) joined #forth 03:18:56 --- join: aranhoide (~aranhoide@69.Red-83-57-126.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 03:26:02 --- 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(~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 13:07:47 --- join: crc (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bbwjhigoufdrtcay) joined #forth 13:07:47 --- join: Anarch (~olaf@c-73-53-44-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:07:47 --- join: yunfan (~root@unaffiliated/yunfan) joined #forth 13:07:47 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 13:09:42 --- join: KipIngram (~KipIngram@209.40.205.22) joined #forth 13:09:42 --- join: djinni (~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com) joined #forth 13:14:38 --- join: justanotheruser (~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser) joined #forth 13:15:19 Is it difficult to make a perfect conversion from forth to lisp? 13:16:10 justanotheruser: in what sense? 13:16:41 --- join: C-Keen (cckeen@pestilenz.org) joined #forth 13:17:28 gordonjcp: going from a statement like (equal (+ x 2) 4) to x 2 + 4 equal 13:17:37 Including all the ops such as pop/drop 13:20:27 hm 13:20:32 it's probably not that difficult 13:20:43 remember you don't really have variables like that in Forth 13:22:09 you'd say something like x @ 2 + 4 = 13:22:19 the @ is pronounced "Fetch" 13:24:06 I should really play with lisp more 13:24:39 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 13:27:43 gordonjcp: how do you handle pops and drops in lisp though? 13:31:22 --- join: Anarch_ (~olaf@c-73-53-44-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:31:22 --- join: yunfan_ (~root@192.241.238.111) joined #forth 13:31:35 --- join: crc_ (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/session) joined #forth 13:31:57 justanotheruser: I don't know lisp 13:32:26 gordonjcp: hmm, well forth is just rpn right? 13:33:41 --- join: djinni_ (~djinni@li125-242.members.linode.com) joined #forth 13:33:41 --- quit: crc_ (Changing host) 13:33:41 --- join: crc_ (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-urgvbuxgsprdmzdf) joined #forth 13:37:44 justanotheruser, probably not. forth is more integer oriented. and lisp has more good data types. 13:38:14 fantazo: I am speaking strictly syntactically 13:39:01 also then not. as forth sometimes hijacks the parser for things. 13:39:20 fantazo: I am only speaking of forth syntax 13:39:32 --- quit: true-grue_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:39:36 variable my-var 13:39:43 isn't rpn. 13:39:57 It is a stack machine 13:39:59 and you can't say it's syntax as it is a function call. 13:40:04 PUSH X PUSH X ADD 13:40:11 justanotheruser, and? 13:40:16 The only item in the stack should be X+X 13:40:40 fantazo: What do you mean hijacks the parser 13:41:35 I mean with it things like my own "words", which define other words. lispers would probably call them macros. 13:41:41 --- quit: KipIngram (*.net *.split) 13:41:43 --- quit: djinni (*.net *.split) 13:41:43 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@87.114.114.212) joined #forth 13:41:59 or keywords or "special forms" 13:42:16 --- quit: carc (*.net *.split) 13:42:16 --- quit: crc (*.net *.split) 13:42:17 --- quit: Anarch (*.net *.split) 13:42:18 --- quit: yunfan (*.net *.split) 13:42:18 --- quit: cataska (*.net *.split) 13:42:21 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 13:43:06 fantazo: Sorry, I'm don't know of these details. I am just curious about how hard it is to convert a forth-like language to a lisp-like syntax and back 13:44:29 I don't think either language will have the nuances of lisp or forth. The forth-like lang only has basic ops like push and add, etc 13:44:39 "variable" is a defining word 13:44:51 justanotheruser: "variable" is like ":" 13:45:05 the thing it defines follows it in the buffer 13:45:27 gordonjcp: I am referring to nuances like 16:37 < fantazo> also then not. as forth sometimes hijacks the parser for things. 13:45:47 yup, it pretty much does 13:46:17 gordonjcp: What about forth-like languages that just are basic stack machines 13:46:41 justanotheruser: what about them? 13:46:53 gordonjcp: do they need to hijack the parser? 13:46:57 depends 13:47:05 do you understand how Forth works internally? 13:47:06 a forth like language is always easily done, with such restrictions. but if you want to say 100% conversion, then difficult. 13:47:20 gordonjcp: no 13:47:29 fantazo: what restrictions 13:48:55 justanotheruser, restrictions like, that you have a couple of selected keywords, to 80% hit the language features. you could then translate a good bunch of code, but not all. 13:49:41 justanotheruser: okay, maybe it's worth looking at that first 13:49:56 fantazo: what couldn't I translate? OPs moving the stack vals around? 13:50:05 justanotheruser: see if you can find the files for jonesforth, for example - that's a simple implementation that runs on a PC 13:50:07 gordonjcp: Is it worth it if it is just a "forth-like stack machine"? 13:50:15 yes 13:50:39 justanotheruser: how does your "forth-like stack machine" implement words? 13:51:02 Could you do me a big favor and name some OPs that wouldn't be able to be translated https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script 13:51:56 you could translate just about anything 13:52:36 gordonjcp: on that list? 13:52:44 --- quit: aranhoide (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:52:54 or in general 13:52:59 justanotheruser: you know that Forth is mostly written in Forth, right? 13:53:30 --- quit: clog (^C) 13:53:30 --- log: stopped forth/14.02.20 13:53:46 --- log: started forth/14.02.20 13:53:46 --- join: clog (~nef@bespin.org) joined #forth 13:53:46 --- topic: 'Forth Programming | logged by clog at http://bit.ly/91toWN | isforth.com | forthfreak.net | http://forthworks.com/standards/DPANS/ | www.greenarraychips.com' 13:53:46 --- topic: set by I440r!~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com on [Thu Jan 02 15:51:09 2014] 13:53:46 --- names: list (clog john_metcalf djinni_ crc yunfan_ Anarch_ C-Keen justanotheruser sklr_ nighty^_ Zarutian pvt_petey bluekelp kumool TodPunk ASau bbloom mark4 newcup bjorkintosh fantazo dzho_ nighty^ ttmrichter nop0x07bc kludge` nisstyre karswell mnemnion impomatic b_jonas drobban c00kiemon5ter klltkr malyn Eth|cal koisoke kulp mullein Adeon backer gordonjcp rprimus bstates) 13:53:53 justanotheruser: you start off with maybe a dozen or so "primitives" 13:54:00 these are words implemented in native machine code 13:54:27 In this stack machine there are no primatives, just a certain number of bytes to be pushed to the staack 13:54:30 these are things like adding and subtracting, basic stack manipulation, memory manipulation and so on 13:54:39 --- join: karswell` (~user@84.93.180.60) joined #forth 13:54:49 oh, I thought you meant primative types 13:54:51 the rest of the Forth language is written in these primitives 13:56:27 --- join: crc_ (sid2647@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bfckqgcpitazmlxq) joined #forth 13:56:49 gordonjcp: Were you saying nothing on that list couldn't be converted to lisp? 13:57:11 justanotheruser: well, far more complex things are written in lisp 13:57:14 why not try it and see? 13:57:47 gordonjcp: My biggest problem is stack manipulation 13:58:00 It kindof breaks down the model I was thinking of 13:59:48 Like (+ 5 (+ 4 (DROP))) doesn't really make sense 14:00:06 s/really/ 14:00:35 --- join: kulp_ (kulp@kulp.ch) joined #forth 14:01:56 --- quit: crc (*.net *.split) 14:01:58 --- quit: mark4 (*.net *.split) 14:01:59 --- quit: karswell (*.net *.split) 14:02:01 --- quit: Eth|cal (*.net *.split) 14:02:02 --- quit: kulp (*.net *.split) 14:02:05 --- nick: kulp_ -> kulp 14:02:11 --- nick: crc_ -> crc 14:02:34 --- nick: kulp -> Guest53285 14:04:37 --- join: Eth|cal (~sam@139.216.253.31) joined #forth 14:07:38 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-68-203-183-77.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 14:08:13 --- join: carc (~carc@2001:41d0:51:1::814) joined #forth 14:08:13 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 14:08:13 --- join: KipIngram (~KipIngram@209.40.205.22) joined #forth 14:09:17 --- quit: carc (Changing host) 14:09:17 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 14:28:04 gordonjcp, I always wanted to see hunchentoot in forth 14:28:44 --- quit: carc (*.net *.split) 14:28:44 --- quit: cataska (*.net *.split) 14:33:52 --- nick: Guest53285 -> Guest00000 14:34:48 --- quit: john_metcalf (*.net *.split) 14:34:50 --- quit: KipIngram (*.net *.split) 14:35:06 --- quit: Guest00000 (Changing host) 14:35:07 --- join: Guest00000 (kulp@unaffiliated/kulp) joined #forth 14:38:14 --- join: KipIngram (~KipIngram@209.40.205.22) joined #forth 14:38:14 --- join: carc (~carc@unaffiliated/carc) joined #forth 14:38:14 --- join: cataska (~cataska@118-163-69-1.HINET-IP.hinet.net) joined #forth 14:42:37 --- nick: Guest00000 -> kulp 14:47:49 --- quit: KipIngram (*.net *.split) 14:48:43 --- join: KipIngram (~KipIngram@209.40.205.22) joined #forth 14:50:58 --- quit: fantazo (Read error: Operation timed out) 14:56:29 --- nick: dzho_ -> dzho 14:58:52 --- quit: dzho (Changing host) 14:58:52 --- join: dzho (~deejoe@unaffiliated/dzho) joined #forth 15:12:17 --- nick: justanotheruser -> just[dead] 15:17:57 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 15:22:53 --- quit: pvt_petey (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:24:10 --- nick: just[dead] -> justanotheruser 15:25:13 --- join: pvt_petey (~pvt_petey@88-107-51-20.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com) joined #forth 16:02:12 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFED39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 16:03:53 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 253 seconds) 16:47:22 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:49:45 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Max SendQ exceeded) 16:50:50 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@c-98-208-36-36.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:51:27 --- join: Anarch (~olaf@c-73-53-44-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 16:52:29 --- join: rprimus_ (~micro@ec2-50-16-189-142.compute-1.amazonaws.com) joined #forth 16:57:31 --- quit: karswell` (*.net *.split) 16:57:31 --- quit: Anarch_ (*.net *.split) 16:57:33 --- quit: rprimus (*.net *.split) 17:05:41 --- quit: pvt_petey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 18:47:00 justanotheruser: there're people who implemented forth in lisp and also an 80's paper about implement lisp in forth 18:47:20 yunfan_: link please 18:52:35 hold on, i have add the forht in lisp article in my favorite, but not that paper 18:54:25 --- join: PoppaVic (~pops@unaffiliated/poppavic) joined #forth 18:55:51 justanotheruser: http://formlis.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/forth-in-lisp/ 18:57:33 justanotheruser: and here is the lisp in forth paper from 1987 soton.mpeforth.com/flag/jfar/vol5/no1/article22.pdf‎ 19:06:59 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 19:07:07 --- nick: justanotheruser -> just[dead] 19:11:43 --- part: PoppaVic left #forth 19:31:51 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@87.114.114.212) joined #forth 19:39:56 --- nick: just[dead] -> justanotheruser 19:40:10 yunfan_: can you relink the 1987 paper? Its formatting i weird 19:40:32 soton.mpeforth.com/flag/jfar/vol5/no1/article22.pdfâ@N 19:40:37 Is what I see 19:40:53 Nevermind 19:40:59 I feel dump, just had to get rid of a@N 19:50:37 justanotheruser: just remove those symbols after '.pdf' 19:51:21 yunfan_: yes, my bad 20:10:04 --- join: Tod-Autojoined (~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 20:10:07 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 20:20:57 --- join: noneofmynickswor (~mool@66-50-66-157.prtc.net) joined #forth 20:24:35 --- quit: kumool (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 20:32:38 --- quit: noneofmynickswor (Quit: Leaving) 20:36:01 --- nick: Tod-Autojoined -> TodPunk 21:21:35 --- join: asie (~textual@078088168214.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 21:37:06 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 22:14:10 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 22:15:59 justanotheruser: so have that satisfied you? 22:24:42 --- join: nisstyre (yourstruly@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:30:44 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: WeeChat 0.4.3) 22:33:32 --- join: nisstyre (yourstruly@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:33:32 --- quit: nisstyre (Client Quit) 22:33:48 --- join: nisstyre (yourstruly@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:38:33 --- quit: nisstyre (Client Quit) 22:40:44 --- join: nisstyre (yourstruly@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:50:41 yunfan_: I read it, but most of the information is specific to forth and not this forth-like language 22:51:20 But the explanation of how lisp can be thought of as just a binary tree and each child node in order is the forth 22:51:28 was helpful 22:57:44 --- quit: ASau` (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:03:19 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFED39.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 23:11:30 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 23:26:43 --- quit: bbloom (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:34:55 Most languages can be thought of as a binary tree. 23:35:07 There's even a term for this: AST. Abstract Syntax Tree. 23:37:18 Programming in Lisp is like programming in the AST directly, almost. 23:37:29 Programming in Forth is more like programming in the AST's tree walker. 23:41:50 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 23:41:56 ttmrichter: so how about the ga144 board? 23:42:21 and i have heard tinyforth from forth-taiwan group, but none of them gave a site for me 23:42:29 anyone have a link for it? 23:44:38 Greenarrays is being uncommunicative after an initially impressive start. 23:44:48 So the project is still a go, but is now product #3 or so. 23:45:04 If GA get off their asses and start providing engineering support it can go back up. 23:47:20 i was wondering if ga144 is a must have chip for your hardware product? 23:47:42 maybe it could be replace to some fpga chip ? 23:48:07 with the j1 forth design from euroforth conf 23:58:46 --- join: solrize_ (solrize@unaffiliated/solrize) joined #forth 23:59:28 --- part: solrize_ left #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/14.02.20