00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.12.30 00:07:51 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 00:26:10 --- join: ncv (~quassel@79.118.11.63) joined #forth 00:26:10 --- quit: ncv (Changing host) 00:26:10 --- join: ncv (~quassel@unaffiliated/neceve) joined #forth 01:14:01 --- join: obobo (~d@dyn-216-168-110-140.nexicom.net) joined #forth 02:42:55 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:05:38 --- join: true-grue_ (~quassel@95-28-210-233.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 04:05:45 --- quit: obobo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 04:06:16 --- join: karswell` (~user@31.185.220.72) joined #forth 04:09:47 --- quit: true-grue (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:09:48 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:09:49 --- quit: karswell (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:09:57 --- join: ttmrichter_ (~ttmrichte@192.241.205.8) joined #forth 04:31:04 --- nick: ttmrichter_ -> ttmrichter 04:33:05 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net) joined #forth 06:15:17 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 06:19:46 --- quit: asie (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:47:57 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (*.net *.split) 06:53:26 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net) joined #forth 07:37:36 --- quit: karswell` (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 07:55:28 --- join: obobo (~d@dyn-216-168-110-140.nexicom.net) joined #forth 08:20:32 --- quit: obobo (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 08:39:24 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:48:31 --- join: kumul (~mool@67.224.178.92) joined #forth 09:53:46 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 10:00:00 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 10:05:35 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-224-152.prtc.net) joined #forth 10:36:09 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 10:43:54 --- join: obobo (~d@dyn-dsl-mb-98-124-28-245.nexicom.net) joined #forth 11:06:48 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 11:26:26 --- nick: mark4 -> I440r 11:26:42 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 11:54:47 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 12:13:42 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 13:23:13 --- quit: obobo (Quit: Leaving) 13:28:08 --- join: obobo (~d@dyn-dsl-mb-98-124-28-245.nexicom.net) joined #forth 13:28:16 --- quit: yiyus (Read error: Operation timed out) 13:31:13 --- join: yiyus (1242712427@je.je.je) joined #forth 13:38:25 --- quit: true-grue_ (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:09:28 --- join: obobo_ (~d@dyn-dsl-ly-98-124-43-39.nexicom.net) joined #forth 14:13:24 --- quit: obobo (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:20:58 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 15:48:49 --- join: obobo__ (~d@dyn-76-75-122-82.nexicom.net) joined #forth 15:49:43 --- quit: obobo__ (Client Quit) 15:51:54 --- quit: obobo_ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 16:45:00 --- join: kumul (~mool@67.224.178.92) joined #forth 17:55:58 --- quit: joneshf-laptop (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 17:56:06 --- join: joneshf-laptop (~joneshf@086.112-30-64.ftth.swbr.surewest.net) joined #forth 18:22:40 --- join: 17WAAN2MM (~dreamus@91.210.100.70) joined #forth 18:32:15 --- quit: 17WAAN2MM (Remote host closed the connection) 18:37:11 --- join: maloooy (~maloooy@91.210.101.90) joined #forth 18:41:07 --- quit: maloooy (Remote host closed the connection) 19:08:55 --- join: obobo (~d@dyn-76-75-122-82.nexicom.net) joined #forth 19:29:22 --- quit: john_metcalf (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:30:10 --- join: john_metcalf (~john_metc@150.20.208.46.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 20:50:21 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 22:02:22 --- join: shaunxcode (~chatzilla@c-24-6-217-122.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:58:00 cratuki: gforth is gnu - should be easy to find. if you want one to learn/play you can also try jonesforth 23:00:55 jonesforth SUCKS 23:01:10 isforth is way freeking better than jonesforth 23:01:22 What's your rating standard? 23:01:39 I typically consider code efficiency / inner interpreter efficiency to be the metric. 23:02:12 jonesforth source formatting is clusterfuck. theres no rhyme nor reason to the word definition order. my sources are WAY better commented (read his are hardly commented at all) 23:02:24 i have tons of example code in my extensions he has jack shit 23:04:46 code efficiency is NOT a metric for "how good is this forth for a beginner" 23:04:50 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-28-164-175.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:04:58 isforth is not inefficient but my primary goal was "can YOU read it" 23:05:37 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 23:07:02 nope :( 23:07:21 http://isforth.com/ seems to have disappeared. 23:07:44 yes the site is still there, the registration on the domain expired lol 23:07:50 i am working on that :P 23:08:21 But you should be able to have both of those things - the inner interpreter is pretty independent from the source code formatting. 23:08:28 ron oliver hosts it and he has been registering it for me but i dont want him to pay for it so im trying to get his mailing address to send him a check 23:08:49 clusterfuck source formatting makes things MUCH harder to read 23:09:09 and my inner interpreter is not difficult to understand at all. its way better factored than his 23:09:41 and im constantly working on improving readability and functionality 23:09:46 another guy was attempting to make a tiny forth like jonesforth but ansi-compliant. it's not as featureful as isforth 23:10:12 https://bitbucket.org/avanderhorst/yourforth 23:10:29 albert vanderhorst 23:10:30 I440r: do you have isforth mirrored online somewhere? 23:10:42 no i dont. i need to get that registration fixed 23:11:05 it wouldn't hurt to stick it in bitbucket or github too... 23:11:24 no 23:11:26 not ever 23:11:38 i wont use github and bitbuckt is for warez 23:12:14 why is it for warez? 23:12:19 Oh, I'm interested in your thoughts there. I use github - what's the concern there? 23:13:08 not a concern, i just hate sites like github and sourceforge 23:13:20 i dont want any of my projects hosted on sites like that 23:13:43 I440r: but... it doesn't matter if isforth is better than x, if x is available at the moment and isforth isn't... i'm just saying you've lost any potential users you might have gained from your advocacy, because your site is down... 23:13:47 i have a site, its even UP right now. you just cant get to it 23:14:03 what. ive lost all 3 of my users? :) 23:14:26 nm... i thought you were trying to convince someone to try it 23:14:57 i would recommend isforth over suckage like jonesforth any day of the week 23:15:01 tho maybe im prejudiced 23:15:26 i'd say so. if ppl can't get to it it's like it doesn't exist 23:15:50 i'll check out isforth once i can but found jones easy to understand, thus my recommendation 23:16:07 right now it doesnt exis lol 23:16:50 what's the ip? 23:18:08 it wont get you to the site i tried it 23:18:10 n/m - turns out i had 1.24b sitting locally 23:18:26 thats should do it 23:18:29 i'll go ahead and mirror the code in github for you :) 23:18:37 --- quit: ncv (Remote host closed the connection) 23:20:05 cant stop you doing so :P 23:26:28 from a learner's pov jones seems much more approachable so far - for someone who knows forths yours may be better 23:31:48 the nasm syntax and better macro facilities are nice 23:34:30 What does "macro facilities" even mean in a Forth system? 23:34:42 Extensibility is characteristic of all Forths. 23:34:53 the assembler's macros 23:35:09 But in a properly implemented system that should just merge right into the Forth. 23:35:25 i'm referring to the asm kernel - not the "forth" 23:35:48 Are you referring to the source code that the Forth is built from? 23:36:38 yes. the asm core - to me (any many disagree) that is the forth system - the rest is what you do with it 23:37:29 Well, I care about the execution flow of the innermost levels of the Forth system, but not a whit about the assembly source / C source / etc. that generates it. 23:37:51 * tangentstorm does disagree. 23:38:30 to me, forth is an abstraction layer. you have a series of words... it shouldn't matter if any particular word is written in asm or forth or c or whatever. they should be indistinguishable. 23:38:34 By that I mean that if I can write more complex assembly source that produces a more efficient Forth system, I will do so. 23:39:15 tangentstorm: I agree with that, but you're referring to the final system. Once the system is up and running you should be able to write at any level. 23:39:25 But before the system exists you have to use other tools to produce it. 23:39:55 oh 23:40:02 fair enough :) 23:43:45 I'm working on a GNU C Forth right now - it's restricted to GNU C because standard C doesn't support labels and goto, and gcc's support of that proves to be *perfect* for implementing an inner interpreter in C. 23:44:14 The snag I've hit, though, is that I'm developing this for Android, and my development system spits up on me when I try to use getchar(). 23:44:24 I got way into it and then ran into that. :-( 23:44:44 android probably doesn't do console apps? no stdin/out 23:44:47 why does that happen? 23:44:58 And having character-by-character control over the input stream just isn't something I want to give up; handing control over the whole input line to C just doesn't cut it for me. 23:45:04 A bug, I think. 23:45:16 I found some references to it online, but it's not something I know how to fix. 23:45:24 oh. huh. bummer. 23:45:28 I get a linker error. 23:45:41 you could switch to free pascal :) 23:45:52 :-) 23:45:58 i'm obsessed with 'bare hardware' asm-rolled forths and making them as small as possible. not really sure why but it's my thing 23:46:04 Is there a good dev system available for android? 23:46:30 In slightly different ways I'm equally "bare metal" obsessed. 23:46:39 if you don't mind spending $1.99 or something, there's a free pascal implementation that generates native code directly on the device 23:46:52 Hmmm. 23:46:58 Ok - I will look, and no, I don't mind. 23:47:14 By the way, I intend for my android forth to have an assembler and generate native code too. 23:47:23 Maybe I'll charge $1.99... ;-) 23:47:33 it's 'PascalGUI' in google play 23:47:35 Or maybe I'll just give it away, source and all... 23:47:40 Ok - thanks. :-) 23:48:03 Hang on a sec and I'll post my inner interpreter (NEXT)... 23:48:13 fpc is open source and can compile itself. this guy just figured out how to make it work smoothly and it was cheaper for me than the hassle of figuring it out myself :) 23:49:51 hrm. looks like i downloaded another one called 'PascalDevelop' somewhere along the line... it might be a free version of the same thing... 23:50:16 #define NEXT p = *(ip++); goto **p 23:50:28 i mean a completely different app, but the same kind of thing. 23:50:36 that's it? :) 23:50:41 Exactly. 23:50:57 The inner interpreter, at least. 23:51:07 Of course there's more stuff around it, but that's the threading. 23:51:26 That's the core of any forth system - it needs to scream. 23:52:15 hrm. so are you jumping to an arbitrary address in ram? 23:52:38 Yeah - the target will always be a gcc label, though. 23:53:06 So the prototypical primitive would look like this: 23:53:14 label: NEXT; 23:53:48 what is the type of ip? 23:54:18 register void ***ip; 23:54:38 hrm. what are the labels? 23:54:40 The line of code is actually 23:54:47 register void **p, ***ip; 23:55:00 That's a feature supported by gcc but not by standard c. 23:55:10 Which is why I'm restricting this to gcc. 23:55:16 It's well-documented online. 23:55:55 i don't know if you can actually do that with pascal's goto statement. 23:56:11 It's been so long since I've programmed Pascal that I don't either. 23:56:27 in pascal, you can put a label anywhere in the code and goto it, even if it's in another function/procedure. 23:56:49 but i don't know if you can do a calculated goto 23:56:59 You can put a label's address in a structure by using this syntax: &&label 23:57:13 you can drop down into assembler though. 23:57:37 Anyway, this was all going *great* until I ran into the getchar snag. 23:57:41 Yes, I could use scanf. 23:58:05 And I may decide to forge ahead that way for now - maybe this bug will get fixed. 23:58:11 But it leaves me very very unhappy. 23:58:52 ah well. good luck. :) 23:59:00 :-) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.12.30