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16:57:13 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 17:01:54 --- join: ASau (~user@p54AFFA8B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 17:04:14 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-64-237-224-74.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:06:12 --- join: kumool (~mool@67.224.178.69) joined #forth 17:09:49 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 17:12:10 --- join: chaotic_good (~g@23-127-54-186.lightspeed.irvnca.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 17:12:23 is greenarays making sales? 17:12:36 any bg on the web websites pwoered by green arays? 17:12:38 big? 17:28:57 chaotic_good: I don't know of any websites powered by greenarrays chips yet 17:29:02 what do you mean about sales, though? 17:29:26 are you interested in buying some chips? 17:30:04 or do you just want to know in what quantities are they being sold? 17:38:28 uh 17:38:42 is there a pc like device i can run something like firefox on? 17:38:47 even a small one? 17:38:58 I wouldnt know howto exploit a chip by herself 17:45:05 there is not, at this point. the closest thing is the evaluator board: http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/products/index.html 17:45:48 you can get a software simulation in your computer by downloading their development tools: http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/support/download-02b.html 17:46:11 manual: http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/DB004-131030-aFUSER.pdf 17:47:03 there are cheaper alternatives to testing the chips, but unfortunately nothing like, say, a raspberry pi 17:47:42 the evaluation board is more like an arduino kit (nobody hesitate to correct me if this is a bad comparison) 17:53:30 Umm... GreenArrays chips are not actually intended for making PC-like devices. 17:53:43 They'd be entirely unsuited to that, in fact. 18:06:35 --- quit: chaotic_good (Quit: Lost terminal) 18:09:16 --- join: I440r (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:09:16 --- mode: ChanServ set +o I440r 18:37:36 ttmrichter: the modern web browser suported too many features that made the potential competitors pay huge effects 19:17:22 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 19:20:42 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@191.Red-79-157-1.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 19:52:58 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.211.149) joined #forth 20:47:39 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 21:01:59 I agree with ttmrichter there - the GA chips are targeted at very specialized applications. 21:02:20 I try to fathom how I'd create solutions with them, but it still feels out of reach to me. 21:02:40 I think I see what they have in mind, but it's very hard for me to "tune" my creative faculties to that sort of orientation. 21:02:59 KipIngram: Do you use Unix (or a Unix-alike)? 21:03:29 Yes - I've used Linux and Windows. But I've also written a lot of embedded "no OS" type stuff as well. 21:04:26 OK, here's one way to think of the GA144. 21:04:27 I've also worked with a crazy system called "Quantum Frameworks" - I wound up not a fan. 21:04:38 Ok - listening with great interest. 21:04:50 Think of each one of those cores as the Unix ideal of a utility: does one thing well. 21:05:07 And you build complicated behaviour by "piping" the output of each utility to others in a chain. 21:05:43 So foo | bar | baz has a direct analogue in the GA144 where foo, bar and baz are very small transformations done to a data stream. 21:05:53 Ok. Fair enough. 21:06:01 Instead of chaining utilities, however, you're chaining cores. 21:06:05 That makes sense to me - I do that sort of stuff with the Linux command line all the time. 21:06:15 KipIngram: quantum system? 21:06:22 No, Quantum was just in the name. 21:06:47 ok 21:06:52 Quantum Frameworks is just a scheduling system for multi-threaded applications. 21:07:10 It's not even truly "real time," which was one of the problems - the guys that were favoring it were trying to use it for real time work. 21:07:12 i thought it was the competitor of dwave :] 21:07:41 They had achieved success with it for very low-speed real time applications, but then they were trying to use it in a high-speed system where it couldn't do what it needed to do. 21:07:50 No - I don't know of any dwave competitors. 21:08:23 I used to pay a lot of attention to progress in quantum computing, but hen I found out that there are cryptography systems that are strongly believed to be immune to "quantum assault." 21:08:39 As long as we still have secure ciphers to fall back on then I'm a lot less worried. 21:13:43 I think the threat of quantum computing is grossly overstated anyway. 21:14:01 How many qubits (real ones, not fake ones) have actually been put working together so far max? 21:14:30 There's one company that claimed thousands, but when you read it they're not qubits in the real sense. 21:26:11 so is there any fundamental reason why a GA144, or an array of them, couldn't be used to do the job of graphics cards, sound cards, input controllers, etc? 21:26:29 I mean, it's probably not the most straightforward use, to put it lightly 21:26:39 but it could be done 21:26:56 sound card, input controller sure... 21:27:00 I think that *sort* of app is exactly what they have in mind, though some of those apps might have extra special requirements. 21:27:10 performance would not be the same of a GPU, for sure 21:27:12 Like some graphics cards have 2048 processors, or maybe even more these days. 21:27:24 yes 21:27:31 But that general sort of parallel activity is what is targeted, I think. 21:27:35 there're scheme implementation for GPU 21:27:47 i wonder if there could be a gpu forth 21:27:48 graphics card seems harder... even if you matched the processor count, it would probably need a completely different routing mechanism. 21:28:54 because graphics cards are optimized for single instruction, multiple dispatch (where all the processors are doing the same thing)... although that's starting to change. 21:29:21 I think that Forth could be a great language for programming the individual processors of a GPU. 21:29:31 well, I'm not saying compete with NVidia here. there are many useful apps that don't require nearly the power of modern GPUs 21:29:33 Yes, that does need to chasnge. 21:29:36 change 21:29:37 with the GA chips, you can't just blast a single instruction to all 144 cores. 21:29:45 Different parts of the screen might be doing different things... 21:29:49 you talk to one core, and it talks to its neighbors, and so on. 21:30:58 i've been idly thinking about a GPU-based forth for a while now, but haven't really pursued it. 21:31:08 But I'm thinking about how different cores might be responsible for different bits of the display. One might be moving a game character, one might be having trees blow in the wind, etc. 21:31:26 Well, keep in mind just how restrictive those cores are. 21:31:35 You don't have a lot of memory to play with (to put it mildly!). 21:31:37 So the whole thing would be "concept controlled" from the game running on the main CPU, but each processor would be focused on different sorts of appropriate tasks. 21:31:47 Same for the GA144. :-) 21:31:58 THat's the core I was talking about. :P 21:33:08 yeah... my thought was to try and model something like the GA144 on a GPU... make them into very tiny cores with maybe 256 cells (32-bit pixels) of ram each. 21:33:49 a bunch of evaluation boards should be put in the hands of the types of crazy folks that do incredible demos in ridiculous sizes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSAJTQiQ0DA 21:34:02 I'm very curious to see what they would come up with 21:34:15 my thought was to operate in SIMD mode, but to have the instructions implement a virtual machine. 21:36:05 tangentstorm: that's a very interesting idea 21:38:01 My impression is that GPU cores are doing BLAS-type operations. 21:38:14 Given that I doubt that Forth would be nice to control GPU core. 21:38:39 I'm shocked to hear you say that, ASau. 21:39:09 *You*, feeling Forth is inappropriate for something... it befuddles the mind... 21:41:26 Yeah, I know I'm reeling. 21:41:33 He's been such a cheerleader all the rest of the time. 21:52:54 ttmrichter: Re: your above comment about quantum computing - I think you're right that nothing has been proven yet. I'm just a worst-case scenario thinker on such things. Even *IF* someone comes up with a quantum computer - I'm content now knowing that I can just turn to other ciphers that are not rendered vulnerable by that. 21:53:10 If no one does, then so much the better. :-) 21:53:30 Agreed. 21:55:49 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 22:01:54 --- quit: robonerd (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 22:02:15 --- join: robonerd- (~user@50-47-194-169.evrt.wa.frontiernet.net) joined #forth 22:20:21 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 22:44:57 4,1easy+ 1n-n8 123 3+ ;0add 123 to TOS 22:45:24 4,1easy+0 n-n8 1233 + ;0 add 123 to TOS 22:45:46 pretty. 22:51:14 oop 22:51:49 so how you modify the color of a word? 22:53:12 ASau: yes, the available GPU operations are fairly limited. both the instructions and the ram/registers/stack for the virtual machines would have to be held in textures. 22:54:29 in colorforth? you type the a key for the color before you start typing... or you can press another key to cycle between green, yellow, and white. 22:54:54 in irc, you figure out how to type ascii character 0x04 (^C) 22:57:17 so it has a plain soucecode which will include the color code? 22:59:00 colorforth? 22:59:03 yes 22:59:05 no 22:59:30 then how you save that to a disk and load after? 22:59:48 it uses block storage. 23:00:02 i mean if you dont save color info 23:00:08 you do. 23:00:38 but you said no to my question 23:00:44 i wasn't saying no to 'include the color code' ... i was saying no to 'plain sourcecode' 23:01:35 okay 23:01:38 if you type the word 'banana' at the prompt in colorforth/arrayforth, it puts the number ... 104162661 on the stack. 23:02:13 104162661 represents the yellow word 'banana' 23:02:48 well... it only shows you the number while you're typing. 23:03:16 once you hit space it drops the numbers and says 'banana?' ... unless you've defined a word called banana. 23:03:44 if it were a different word, the number would be different. 23:04:09 http://www.colorforth.com/chars.html 23:04:26 http://www.colorforth.com/compress.htm 23:04:32 and http://www.colorforth.com/parsed.html 23:11:27 hmm i dont want to use it currently :] 23:11:57 23:13:13 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 23:14:23 I'm still a little hazy on what colorforth is supposed to buy at the expense of looking like clown pants and not being usable by a significant fraction of the population. 23:21:38 i think Chuck just likes to explore strange new worlds... :) 23:22:01 Yes, and sometimes he misfires. 23:22:02 for me, what it buys is a dramatic simplification of the interpreter. 23:22:10 How is it any simpler? 23:22:15 --- quit: Backer (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 23:22:23 With Forth you scan for space-separated words. 23:22:29 well, you don't have to worry about the compiler state. 23:22:44 With ColorForth you scan for colour codes and words. 23:22:50 --- join: Backer (~backer@user-387h39d.cable.mindspring.com) joined #forth 23:23:03 Sure you do. It's just that you now have to encode this by hand with the colours. 23:23:04 hrm.. sort of. 23:23:58 colorforth doesn't really scan its input... there's /almost/ no lexical analysis. 23:24:41 each word in the dictionary is represented as a single 32 bit value, so lookup reduced to iteration through a parallel array. 23:24:53 i guess you say two parallel arrays. 23:25:27 an array of 32 bit encoded words and an array of pointers to their definitions. 23:26:43 when it's executing, it's only going to dispatch on the first n bits, which say how to treat that 32-bit token. 23:27:17 so if you look at http://www.colorforth.com/parsed.html ... 23:28:11 Yeah, it avoids parsing step by putting the burden on programmer. 23:28:18 it really only looks at the least significant 4 bits for each token, and then dispatches accordingly. 23:29:19 ASau: yep, pretty much. it doesn't really feel like a burden to me in practice though. :) 23:30:10 In fact, the way CM handles all such tasks makes every person suspect that he hasn't learned how to write parsers. 23:30:18 That is he is just ignorant of technology. 23:31:25 chuck is very anti-parser. 23:32:16 i am too, at least for the early parts of my programming course. 23:32:36 Wow! That's two negative statements about Forth-related subjects from ASau in one day! Is today a blue moon or something? He's usually so upbeat and positive. 23:34:25 Dear ASau: I'm sorry I raped your mother, sister and family cat. Love, Forth. 23:34:57 :/ 23:37:11 --- quit: aranhoide (Read error: Operation timed out) 23:37:32 anyway... i want to build everything up from a simple virtual machine, and colorforth just seems to have a lot of nice things going for it... blocks, preparsed tokens, simpler data structures for the dictionary... 23:38:24 there's no colon compiler ether... you just use the editor. 23:38:32 *either 23:41:20 The next step is forgetting editor and writing instructions for your VM in some sort of binary debugger. 23:43:37 that's the first step, actually. :) 23:44:48 i want to start with an interactive debugger like thing (probably a grid of numbers where you can just edit ram directly) and then use that to build a simple editor. 23:45:31 Learning how to parse LL(1) is a matter of one day. 23:45:32 Tops. 23:45:37 the colorforth editor isn't really a "text" editor. it's basically just a list of tokens. 23:45:46 And that gives you speed and power of TurboPascal 3. 23:47:08 i don't know how i'd teach parsing to complete beginners in one day... or even one month :) 23:48:11 Explaining how recursive descent works is a matter of an hour. 23:48:25 Unless you mean beginners who know nothing about programming. 23:49:46 Explaining how to transform recursive descent parser into LL(1) is a matter of another hour. 23:50:27 Add two or three hours of explanation how to generate selection sets, 23:50:30 and that makes it. 23:51:44 --- quit: kumool (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 23:53:15 With some minor effort you can go further and extend it to PEG, parser combinators, and/or something that is almost GLL. 23:53:49 Except that it is LL(*), GLL is a bit harder. 23:55:21 Thus within short time you can get a grasp of very powerful parsing techniques. 23:57:03 yeah, i'm talking about people who've never programmed before... possibly little kids. 23:58:14 but... i don't really need to parse anything in the early stages anyway. 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.12.01