00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.11.28 00:00:00 --- join: conjecTech (62fb32ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.251.50.173) joined #forth 00:00:29 holy crap, this actually exists 00:00:47 was expecting this to be entirely empty. haha 00:03:15 * ttmrichter counts down to A-Sau telling you to stay away from Forth at all costs... 00:06:57 heh. I'll take my chances 00:07:07 knowledge rarely hurts 00:52:29 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 00:53:09 --- quit: koisoke (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 00:53:44 --- join: koisoke (xef4@epilogue.org) joined #forth 01:06:04 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 01:22:57 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@227.Red-83-45-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 01:25:21 --- quit: conjecTech (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 01:42:49 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 01:57:52 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 01:59:16 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@176.14.137.178) joined #forth 02:30:48 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 02:43:58 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:00:43 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 03:22:08 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 03:25:07 --- join: ASau (~user@p5083D665.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 03:40:22 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 04:40:42 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 04:46:02 --- quit: Nisstyre-laptop (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 06:30:50 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:39:16 --- join: dkordic (~danilo@109-93-122-193.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) joined #forth 06:55:08 --- quit: ttmrichter (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in) 06:58:50 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@192.241.205.8) joined #forth 06:59:59 --- quit: ttmrichter (Client Quit) 07:00:41 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@192.241.205.8) joined #forth 07:01:58 --- join: kumul (~mool@66-50-97-148.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:12:46 ... are you billy quiz boy? 07:21:17 --- join: regreg (~regreg@77.81.151.155) joined #forth 07:36:59 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 07:41:21 --- quit: w0rm_x (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 07:41:57 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 07:44:35 --- quit: w0rm_x (Read error: Operation timed out) 07:47:50 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 07:57:57 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 08:44:36 --- join: lovecraft (luis@186.207.249.53) joined #forth 08:46:40 --- quit: lovecraft () 09:33:50 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@227.Red-83-45-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 09:34:16 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 09:34:24 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 09:38:40 --- quit: w0rm_x (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 09:48:17 --- quit: regreg (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 09:48:50 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 09:57:51 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 10:09:28 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@227.Red-83-45-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 10:15:49 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:19:56 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 10:24:13 --- quit: w0rm_x (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 10:26:16 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 10:27:02 --- quit: w0rm_x (Client Quit) 10:43:06 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 10:45:48 --- join: yiyus (1242712427@server1.bouncer4you.de) joined #forth 10:48:57 --- join: regreg (~regreg@77.81.151.155) joined #forth 10:52:15 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-56-47.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 10:56:41 --- quit: w0rm_x (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 11:10:42 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@227.Red-83-45-165.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 11:15:45 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:16:32 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@176.14.137.178) joined #forth 11:22:52 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 11:29:19 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@125.82.69.86.rev.sfr.net) joined #forth 11:41:21 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 11:46:16 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 11:47:52 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@176.14.137.178) joined #forth 11:56:42 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 11:59:32 --- join: conjecTech (62fb32ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.251.50.173) joined #forth 12:45:48 --- quit: yiyus (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:54:05 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 12:58:08 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:31:00 --- quit: conjecTech (Quit: Page closed) 13:31:49 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 13:32:52 --- quit: nighty-_ (Remote host closed the connection) 13:46:46 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 14:00:32 --- quit: regreg (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 14:14:30 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFEEE1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 14:15:30 --- quit: dys (Remote host closed the connection) 14:18:06 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:27:04 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 14:40:50 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 15:22:27 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@43.Red-2-138-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 15:58:17 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 16:09:26 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-23-93-89.brhm.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 16:09:40 --- quit: w0rm_x (Client Quit) 17:25:35 --- join: luismiguel (~luismigue@179.246.193.189) joined #forth 17:25:45 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 17:30:02 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host86-155-213-39.range86-155.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 17:33:37 --- quit: luismiguel (Quit: used jmIrc) 17:57:18 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 19:00:13 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 20:14:58 --- quit: impomatic (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 20:45:05 --- quit: aranhoide (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 21:07:54 --- join: aranhoide (~smuxi@43.Red-2-138-3.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) joined #forth 22:03:19 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 22:08:58 i just know bitcoin's transation use a forth-like script 22:09:10 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script 22:13:13 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 22:14:36 so could GA144 more performance to ensure a bitcoin transtion? 22:34:19 --- join: conjecTech (62fb32ad@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.251.50.173) joined #forth 22:39:46 jyf: Are you referring to using a GA144 to run bitcoin mining? 22:42:53 yes, as a miner role 22:43:16 miner need to ensure transtion and pack them into block , isnt it? 22:45:27 Yes - a miner takes a group of transactions and "validates" them by creating a block of information that contains those transactions and yields a particular hash result when subjected to a specified hash algorithm. 22:46:15 I'm oversimplifying here, but the essence of it is to put the transactions into a block and then add some "finishing up" information to the block to make the hash result right. 22:46:24 You have to guess at the "finishing up" information. 22:46:44 So essentially you keep guessing until you get the hash to come out right, and then you submit your finished block. 22:47:07 no, in a transation, you need to claim where your coin from 22:47:22 There is no way to "make progress" toward an answer - your guess is either right or wrong and if it's wrong the only thing you've learned is that that particular guess was wrong. 22:47:43 it would be from another block, so the miner will lookup that block and pick up the target transation which someone sent btc to you 22:47:43 I'm not trying to describe what a transaction is. 22:48:11 Yes - some of the information in your block is from a previous block, so blocks can be chained. 22:48:12 and it would run that scriptPubkey to ensure you are the receiver of that transation 22:48:30 that scriptPubkey is a forth like script 22:48:35 But as far as running a mining algorithm goes, the "hard part" is that guessing process I referred to. 22:48:50 and in that wiki page, i saw so many forth related words like dup drop rot over 22:49:21 The essence of the mining algorithm is the SHA256 hash. 22:49:37 A miner computes SHA256's over and over and over - that's what has to be efficient. 22:49:51 i am curious that if someone could make a transation and provite a scriptPubkey that consume large performance of miner's machine 22:50:08 Why would you want to do that? 22:50:53 KipIngram: if other miner's performance was comsumed by ensure the specific transation, you could get more time to guess the hash 22:51:11 That's not how it works. 22:51:29 If someone else finishes a block you're working on, you just move on to the next one. 22:51:33 and i am worry about sha256 22:51:37 You don't "lose progress." 22:51:43 There is no "progress." 22:51:48 It's like rolling dice. 22:52:31 is he trying to perform a DOS attack on an entire bitcoin mining pool? lol 22:52:32 If you've been working on a block, and someone else suddenly adds that block to the chain and you start working on a new one, your next attempt is just as likely to be right as it was on the previous block. 22:52:43 Yes - that's what it started to sound like to me. 22:53:08 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 22:53:16 KipIngram: yes i knew that if the new block generated, i need to drop my version at once 22:53:45 And that doesn't cost you anything - the only way you would go wrong would be by failing to do that and wasting effort on an already solved problem. 22:54:02 but what i mean is new block need to enture many transations and package them 22:54:37 But the effort to do that is trivial compared to the effort to find the right hash key. 22:55:26 its just a thought experiment 22:55:48 I spent a fair bit of time thinking about this about six months ago. If I'd arrived at the party a year or two sooner I probably could have made some money. But I decided I was a bit late and moved on to other things. 22:55:50 i ofcause dont have that computing power to do that even i made other miner lags 22:56:31 I was looking at a parallel implementation using FPGAs, but the new game in town is ASIC. I was more or less thinking of bringing a knife to a gunfight. 22:56:38 KipIngram: and bitcoin's protocol says there're small chance duplicate transation could happen 22:56:46 Yes. 22:56:52 One will get weeded out in time, though. 22:57:09 you see, if i made a specific transation that the miner need more than 10 minutes to ensure 22:57:14 Bitcoin transactions aren't really considered entirely valid until they're "well back" in the chain. 22:58:01 KipIngram: could you point me in the direction of some good technical material on the process behind mining and transaction verification? 22:58:14 Yes. 22:58:21 Hold on a sec. 22:59:44 i have an idea on that , and i have explained that to ttmrichter once 23:00:27 bitcoin solved the problem of e-pay, but not the problem of economy 23:02:06 currently people just talk 1 btc could bought xxx USD 23:02:16 conjecTech: First off, join #bitcon here on freenode if you haven't already. There's also a #bitcoin-dev that's useful. 23:02:45 Second, read this wikipedia article (hold on - have to find it): 23:03:40 okay, will ask them the script question 23:03:42 Third, look carefully at the problems of Bitcoin (like the fact it's not really very good at being anonymous). 23:04:16 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2 23:04:23 Look at the pseudocode section. 23:04:53 heh, thanks ttm. yeah, I honestly am just trying to find out about it relative merits. obviously wish i had made some money on its valuation, but I'm very much more interested in having a good payment method 23:05:03 ttmrichter: You're right. I don't consider anonymity the strongest value of bitcoin. I consider the fact that it can't be "managed and manipulated" by the government to be it's value. 23:05:16 conjecTech: Yes, me to. 23:05:32 A truly public, open-source currency system that's out of reach of any central authority. 23:05:50 I'm looking for a couple of other good Wikipedia articles now. 23:05:56 yeah...the centralized verification is kind of troublesome...do you guys know the reasoning for that step? 23:06:08 not really centralized, but very widely broadcast 23:06:23 Ok, not wikipedia. 23:06:28 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm 23:07:14 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Protocol_specification 23:07:21 Those are pretty good for a start, I think. 23:07:45 That's the key - it's not centralized. It's "community agreed upon." 23:09:29 Bitcoin mining is based on solving a hard math problem. Once you have the solution you have some bitcoin. Without an agreed upon transaction history, that includes info on who solved the problems, there'd be no way to prevent you from giving your solution to someone else and then later claiming it was still yours. 23:10:00 It's not like a chunk of gold, where possession is everything. More than one person can possess a problem solution, so there has to be a public history of who found it first. 23:10:10 This places it into the same category as cattle, gold, oil, and similar things. 23:10:11 And how those bitcoin changed hands after that. 23:10:26 Yes, except those things can't be copied. 23:10:41 And so don't need a public transaction record. 23:10:57 ah, I see 23:11:13 interesting way of solving the problem 23:11:24 Yes, I consider it to be rather well thought out. 23:11:54 perhaps. the remark ttm made about anonymity is still kind of true though 23:12:10 people tie these transactions to people a little too easily for my liking 23:12:14 The biggest threat I see to the system is for governments to simply forbid their citizens from participating in bitcoin transactions. 23:12:25 And prosecuting anyone they find out is doing so. 23:12:49 Yes - your last comments and mine fit together very well. 23:13:28 If you're very careful (use Tor, anonymous identities, and so on) you can probably conduct bitcoin commerce out of sight of your government. 23:13:50 But as soon as you try to convert your coin to a mainstream currency you will be "outed," because your identity is tied to *those* transactions. 23:14:01 I don't see any threat at all. 23:14:07 Bitcoin is the same natural money as cattle. 23:14:12 Or as soon as you try to take delivery of any goods purchased with bitcoin, etc. 23:14:19 yeah, that's the problem 23:14:26 with cash, you never have that step 23:14:32 Only you have to go through additional steps to ensure that bitcoin is of unique type. 23:14:33 its much harder to track individual bills 23:14:37 Well, you still have to take delivery of your goods. 23:14:40 of uniquenes type. 23:15:06 well yeah, but no one is going to be privy to the fact that you just paid someone with cash 23:15:10 Thus everything bitcoin changes is the accounting. 23:15:42 I agree with you. With cash transactions it's all between you and the other guy. 23:15:55 With bitcoin the deal is still between you and the other guy, but there's a public record of it. 23:16:14 Yeah...I'd be interested to try to find some way around that 23:16:25 It's kind of like doing all your cash transactions under a surveillance camera. 23:16:32 As if you opened a bank where you count in fictional units rather than money. 23:16:37 There are bitcoin anonymizing services. 23:16:41 I don't know how good they are. 23:16:59 i wouldn't trust a construct like that 23:17:07 They're exactly the kind of thing I suspect the government of setting up themselves, hoping for a big whale of a fish to swim by. 23:17:25 yeah...I mean I'm sure they use services similar to what you described 23:17:31 Just like I suspect governments of running massive Tor node farms and logging *everything*. 23:17:39 and the NSA realistically controls half of TOR nodes or more 23:17:45 :-) 23:17:47 Great minds. 23:17:48 heh, good timing 23:17:59 They've got the $$$ to do so. 23:18:03 So why wouldn't they. 23:18:13 Why be smart when you can just buy the answer. 23:18:20 yup 23:19:44 The value of government backed currencies arises from faith and trust in those governments. Bitcoin represents a place to store value in cases where governments fall flat on their face and the world loses that faith and trust. 23:19:45 Strictly speaking with cash the deal is not between you and the other guy only. 23:20:02 Oh, no. 23:20:03 It has nothing to do with faith. 23:20:17 Or trust. 23:20:46 If you break some law the government imposed on transactions, you have a good chance to end your life in jail. 23:21:09 That doesn't have anything to do with the point I was trying to make - we're talking about different things. 23:21:14 i think he means when it comes to the value of the currency 23:21:18 Yes. 23:23:37 KipIngram: in a country like china, goverment could control the whole network :] 23:24:27 Or just outlaw it. 23:24:53 For a period of time after the US abandoned the gold standard it was illegal for US citizens to own bullion. 23:24:59 Last time I heard you have unaccounted people in China that somehow evaded one-child policy. 23:25:14 Precisely because many people thought the government had just done something very bad and their faith in the dollar was shaken. 23:25:29 The government outlawed owning gold so people wouldn't just start using raw gold as their currency. 23:25:41 They can do the same thing with bitcoin if they please. 23:26:03 And of course a few smart people will figure out how to stay anonymous enough to do it anyway, just as I'm sure some gold circulated during that ban. 23:26:20 But that's probably not a large enough part of the population to keep the system viable. 23:26:45 It's legal to own gold again, but we're a new generation and are very accustomed to working with a non-gold-backed currency. 23:26:50 They just "waited us out." 23:28:11 I'm sure that it is quite easy to make bitcoin circulate only in virtual space. 23:28:39 It's interesting to note that they waited almost exactly "one generation" to make it legal again. 23:28:45 Thus making it no more different than karma points or likes. 23:29:01 Right. 23:29:17 And if you can't ultimately convert it to real-world goods and services, of what use is it? 23:29:28 Maybe you could plan to retire to a place where it's legal. 23:29:30 I don't know. 23:29:47 I'd like to see someone try to displace amazon by only using bitcoins 23:29:51 ASau: it's trivial to avoid the one-child policy. There's no "somehow" about it. 23:30:00 and making their money on not having to pay servicing fees 23:30:05 Here's the trick: you have a second (or third (or fourth)) child. 23:30:09 Wow! That was hard! 23:30:14 ttmrichter: How do they do that - I'm curious. 23:30:20 Oh. 23:30:25 There is no punishment? 23:30:29 Well the father and the mother ... do I need to go into details? 23:30:33 There is censure, yes. 23:30:34 KipIngram: there is. 23:30:44 But the censure is comically toothless. 23:30:55 The punishments were set back when most people were still agrarian. 23:31:01 The point is that some people "don't exist" because their parents evaded that punishment. 23:31:05 In the modern China with a bulging middle class the censure is minor. 23:31:18 ASau: "Don't exist" in what way? 23:31:23 Provide details please. 23:31:35 They are not registered by authorities. 23:31:45 My own source: I have two direct relatives who broke the one-child policy. 23:31:54 The authorities sure as fuck know about them. 23:32:07 No passport, no insurance, whatever. 23:32:26 They have ID cards. They even have social insurance. 23:33:03 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 23:33:13 Did those relatives receive what they're entitled to for abiding those one-child laws? 23:33:28 ASau is right, in china some people are not exists in goverment's population records 23:33:46 I don't remember what it is, tax cuts or whatever. 23:33:54 ASau: They receive exactly what they're entitled to. 23:33:56 I did say there was censure. 23:34:23 jyf: The population records are a different matter. There's incentive for GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS to hide the real populations in their areas. 23:34:31 So basically they cook the books. 23:34:42 One set for the real numbers, one set for Beijing. 23:35:08 ttmrichter: censure in which form? 23:35:11 ASau: So the "punishment" my relatives receive is that they don't get any subsidies for education. 23:35:22 Their second child is more expensive to educate. 23:35:27 conjecTech: I do agree with your perspective that bitcoin would be far more valuable as a system if there was a way to remain thoroughly and permanently anonymous while using them. 23:35:37 ttmrichter: no, you are wrong 23:35:40 ttmrichter: So, they did suffer in material sense. 23:35:42 The subsidies in question, however, are miniscule for anybody above subsistence farming levels of economic activity. 23:35:50 I also agree that Tor is buggered because it's likely to be already effectively under government control. 23:35:52 ttmrichter: some people even hidden in official's eye 23:36:00 And I'm talking about people who had more than one child while receiving all those subsidies. 23:36:02 Because the punishments are set for what was then a primarily agrarian economy. 23:36:03 there used to be a repoting for that 23:36:15 Any one tor operation may not identify you, but if you tried to manage your finances via bitcoin and tor over time I feel sure you'd be identified. 23:36:47 The other punishment is the monthly visit from the whatever the bureau is called that's responsible for this to come and lecture the family on the importance of the one-child policy. 23:36:59 This is generally greeted with great amusement. 23:37:02 KipIngram: can you think of an alternative way to facilitate transfers that would allow for that? 23:37:14 Well, I think a lot about this. 23:37:34 I think one of Tor's weaknesses is that it's oriented toward browsing. Relatively real time, relatively high bandwidth. 23:37:40 Pictures, videos, etc. 23:38:13 I would love to see a system for low-bandwidth person-to-person communication that used steganography and just "hid in plain sight" so to speak. 23:38:37 KipIngram: How do you know such a system doesn't already exist? 23:38:42 Hiding in plain site. :) 23:38:47 A low enough data rate that it was undetectable by contemporary techniques, and using an encryption algorithm that is immune even to quantum computing techniques. 23:38:53 Such encryption systems exist. 23:38:57 man, i have a friend who started to create some hardware for cognitive radio, and I'd love to see it applied towards something like this 23:39:28 i think a system similar to that, where you have relatively slow, but eventual communication of information would be perfect 23:39:36 The techniques used for detecting steganography messages rely on the message being "large" compared to the medium it's hidden in. 23:39:52 It's surprising how much information you can hide in a jpeg without it being visually obvious. 23:40:12 But if you try to hide only a small amount of information it can't be reliably found. 23:40:17 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 23:40:29 Yes - it's important to avoid trying to be real-time too. 23:40:38 Every node should queue messages for a random length of time. 23:40:59 I'd be happy with a system that was as responsive as the US mail. 23:41:17 I'd be fine with messages that took a couple of days to get through as long as they were absolutely undetectable. 23:41:39 KipIngram: I developed a communications channel in university that did about 10bps on a VAX/11-750. 23:41:54 And the system needs to work through protocols that are standard, so that ou could do your business from any internet cafe, from you office, from an airplane, etc. 23:42:03 :-) 23:42:05 Fun. 23:42:22 you guys are giving me entirely too much to research. haha 23:42:31 this night was busy enough as it is. 23:42:36 One that was basically impossible for the sysadmin to monitor too. 23:42:38 conjecTech: A Flickr account. 23:42:53 With an undetectably low amount of steganographic content. 23:42:56 I used CPU load as the hi/low indicator. 23:43:07 That's hardly anonymous, though. 23:43:22 But it would be a great way to provide private communication between parties known to one another. 23:43:23 The transmitter would be seen taking up CPU, yes. 23:43:35 But it was an intrinsically broadcast protocol. 23:43:41 There could be dozens of receivers. 23:43:41 No, I was referring to my Flickr comment. 23:43:45 Oh, that. 23:44:05 they'd catch onto that 23:44:10 and it doesnt scale well 23:44:28 but yeah, for one off stuff, that would probably be acceptable 23:44:32 No, it would really only work between individuals. 23:44:38 Who planned it in advance. 23:44:58 But I do think it could be done undetectably under those circumstances, as long as you were willing to keep your content rate low. 23:45:07 Yeah, at that point, you just carry around list of encryption keys 23:45:36 Well, encryption is one thing. I'm assuming in all cases that strong encryption is used. 23:45:43 I'm looking for undetectable channels. 23:45:59 I see. so you're looking for a way to make it so that noone can even tell you're talking? 23:46:16 Systems that you could use with the full expectation that the government is scrubbing the whole damn internet all the time, and they still wouldn't notice that you were there. 23:46:24 Right. 23:46:41 Because let's face it - if they even think you're talking they can then put you under other forms of monitoring. 23:46:50 Once they're watching you you're done. 23:47:18 Of course us even having this conversation probably means we'll be watched a bit more than others for the rest of our lives. 23:47:20 :-) 23:47:42 Everyone who's university degree implies the knowledge to achieve things like this may get watched more closely. 23:48:07 Everyone who wants to do these things has to learn how, somehow, and that process can be monitored. 23:48:44 heh. i don't mind right now 23:48:48 Me either. 23:48:52 I'm on the good side. 23:48:54 I always act under the assumption I'm being watched 23:48:55 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:49:06 I mostly want to know this stuff in case the whole darn social structure comes apart someday. 23:49:17 Kind of like the guys that used to build bomb shelters "just in case." 23:49:18 heh, i mostly want to be the cause of that 23:49:20 KipIngram: Define "good side". 23:49:32 I'm on the side of giving the government -- any government -- the big middle finger. 23:49:34 Um, the side that doesn't get me in trouble with the government? 23:49:37 Is that the good side? 23:49:41 Hold a job, pay my taxes, etc. 23:50:01 I still give them the big middle finger, but in America you can do that. :-) 23:50:07 Freedom of expression and all. 23:50:10 I do it in China. 23:50:19 Long as I'm not breaking the laws and paying my taxes they leave me be. 23:50:22 All those blocked web sites? Fuck you, Beijing. 23:50:24 I think that's awesome. 23:51:03 People overstate the ability of despots to control things. East Germany and North Korea are exceptions, not the norm. 23:51:19 conjecTech: So anyway, yes - I'm interested right now in finding ways to use mainstream internet content flow to hide very low bandwidth text messages, ideally between parties that don't know one another's identity. 23:51:26 Sort of like an "underground IRC." 23:51:27 Mostly despotic governments tend to actually suck at wielding power. 23:51:35 That supports public and private channels. 23:52:16 the best despots are the one who rule using economics 23:52:21 and they are everywhere 23:52:21 The content of that flow would reach virtually everyone, because of their normal internet activity. Or at least many more people than are using it. 23:52:30 But no one would know if you chose to "decode it" or not. 23:52:34 conjecTech: Right. Like investment banks. Anywhere. 23:52:45 It would have to be based on public key encryption, and probably something like GPG. 23:53:16 conjecTech: Oh yes - just look at the way Bank of America took on WikiLeaks. 23:53:47 I think absolutely critical factors are 1) it's low bandwidth (text only) and 2) it's non-realtime. 23:53:56 So not so much an underground IRC as an underground usenet. 23:54:05 With private conversations supported. 23:54:19 Using GPG technology would allow the establishment of reputations. 23:54:27 "Clandestine identities." 23:55:00 i would think that routing would be a dead giveaway 23:55:15 there need to be some centralized exchanges 23:55:25 Well, the only way to defeat that is to have it embedded in something "popular." 23:55:35 yeah, exactly 23:55:53 easiest way would be to piggyback on an existing content provider 23:56:01 It has to be that way. 23:56:04 east... germany...? ;) 23:56:32 I think there are *lots* of ways of doing this if you start with a group of people who agree in advance on what they're going to do and then do it. 23:56:33 tangentstorm: The former East Germany was extremely efficient in its despotism. 23:56:44 agreed 23:56:57 But having a system that is publicized in a way that lets new members crawl on board electronically is very very hard. 23:57:11 :) 23:57:20 you've just got to have a single missing link in the chain really 23:57:35 for all of their ability to trace things to be gone 23:57:49 Yes. 23:58:03 if you still wan to achieve that through regular use of internet...that's gonna be difficult 23:58:13 but that amount of data might be easy enough to hide 23:58:23 maybe you could do it with web crawlers in some way 23:58:25 Yes, because so much of the internet is "broadcast." 23:58:33 That's an interesting idea. 23:59:19 Ok - so how would we brainstorm this? 23:59:41 We could start by compiling a list, as long as possible, of the things that "ordinary people" do that are *visible* on the open internet. 23:59:58 Blog posts, blog comments, etc. 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.11.28