00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.11.12 00:01:11 well are you in russia or antactica? 00:48:27 so when compiling forth code to native code, would compiler expand some hot use word? 00:49:31 It depends on compiler. 00:50:21 JVM-based implementations will do that. 01:06:29 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 01:07:26 so how many depth would they expand? 01:07:50 just 1 or more or by paramaters indication? 01:24:40 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Read error: Connection timed out) 01:35:16 They will expand everything. 01:35:56 That's how JVM since, I don't remember, 1.2(?) works. 01:38:55 oops expand everything would generated really large file, isnt it? 01:39:01 No. 01:50:13 why not 01:50:55 Because that's not how HotSpot works. 01:54:23 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 02:46:26 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 02:47:33 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Read error: Connection timed out) 02:49:13 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 02:49:16 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 03:45:47 --- join: RJones (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 03:49:54 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 03:54:42 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 03:56:34 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 04:18:37 --- quit: RJones (Read error: Connection timed out) 04:53:33 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.150.85.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 04:54:06 --- quit: mayuresh (Client Quit) 05:05:59 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.150.85.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 05:06:53 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 05:09:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 05:10:05 hey mnemnion :) 05:17:53 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: leaving) 05:22:25 is "forth application techniques" by elizabeth rather (forth, inc) a good book? 05:22:56 i ask because, i couldn't get that copy of "starting forth" from amazon.com 05:23:00 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 05:23:18 and the html-ized tutorial on forth.com is unusable at the text-console 05:25:24 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 05:28:22 mayuresh: You don't need to read as much Forth-related books as you can. Pair of Brodie's books is more than enough. Read general CS books, practice, explore the code of real Forth systems and apps. 05:29:05 thanks :) 05:29:11 there's a problem though 05:29:46 the best introductory text to forth, "starting forth" by brodie isn't shipping to my location (even by amazon). 05:29:56 and that same text while available from forth.com 05:30:07 is not of much use to me at my text-console 05:30:27 because the illustrations are not accessible without a graphical browser. :( 05:31:00 that's why i searched some more and found out about "forth application techniques" by rather. 05:31:54 about the general cs books; i am awaiting a copy of "write great code - volume 1" by randall hyde 05:32:08 i suppose it will give me a good foundation about machine architecture 05:32:34 for the rest i can bank on my over a decade of programming experience. :) 05:32:55 hopefully that should help me get ahead on the forth learning curve. :) 05:33:23 Improving your google skill should help too :) 05:33:29 http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html 05:33:33 http://www.wendellgeek.com/files4doug/Forth_stuff/starting_forth.pdf 05:33:34 etc 05:33:48 cool :) 05:33:50 mayuresh: old Brodie book is definitly wrong approach to study Forth. 05:34:03 asau: why so? 05:34:09 Because it is old. 05:34:17 Anachronistically old. 05:34:35 It uses 16-bit-only languages as examples. 05:35:04 It gives you a lot of useless information about differences in Forth-79 and Forth-83. 05:35:23 asau: would you endorse "forth application techniques" by elizabeth rather? 05:35:28 AFAIR, not only those, it mentions FIG and MVP Forths. 05:36:11 In general, I'd say that if "updated" version is not enough to get grasp of Forth, 05:36:15 you should just abandon it. 05:36:33 All the rest is taken from modern sources. 05:36:45 okay 05:36:48 g 05:37:00 Usually papers or at least web pages, blogs, and similar things. 05:37:10 morning! It's rather early where I am, mayuresh. just saw your greeting. 05:37:19 Evening. 05:37:24 mnemnion: good morning to you :) 05:37:40 yeah, and it's rather late at where i am. :) 05:37:58 mayuresh: I am finding that primary texts on Forth are the most helpful. 05:38:08 primary texts like? 05:38:15 Forth is so small that all the 'tutorials' say the same thing, in slightly different, confusing ways. 05:38:21 okay 05:38:26 Brodie is a good one, Forth Programmer's Handbook is excellent. 05:38:46 Brodie is probably still all the beginner book you need though there's one other I've found also good, one moment 05:39:24 IIRC, I have seen FPH. 05:39:27 http://galileo.phys.virginia.edu/classes/551.jvn.fall01/primer.htm#intro 05:39:27 It didn't impress me. 05:40:09 that's probably a better choice. Brodie was written at least partially for children. Easy to forget what was considered suitable for kids in the 80s! 05:40:28 would forth.org be a good single point resource for someone starting off? 05:40:32 someone like me? 05:40:48 No. 05:41:06 "Single point" is never good. 05:41:10 well I'm brand new! I've been on channel for about a week and writing Forth for *maybe* two days more 05:41:27 this is what I'm reading right now: http://www.forth.org/POL.pdf 05:41:41 And that's really bullshit. 05:41:50 that's what I mean by a primary text. You read this, you will know why Chuck Moore made Forth the way he did. Every step of the reasoning is laid out. 05:42:49 It might have been good for early seventies when it was written. 05:43:08 But as of today many of those statements are proven wrong. 05:43:52 mayuresh: You need to decide by yourself which of us to listen to. I worked with Chuck Moore and Jeff Fox for a couple years, by the way ;) 05:44:26 :) 05:44:32 Thus, basically "POL" can be used only as historical material about one dead end in history of technology. 05:44:49 true-grue, I'm going to complete my math and machine architecture 05:45:25 true-grue: and them i'm going to target those two books from forth, inc. :) 05:45:39 once done, i'll be in a better position to understand where i stand 05:45:43 and where to go from there 05:45:52 --- quit: nighty^ (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 05:46:50 true-grue: yes, i finally managed to figure out an effortless way to get swiftforth to run on my amd64 based ubuntu server 13.10 :) 05:46:52 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 05:47:44 true-grue: we seem to be saying similar things, but I'd urge mayuresh to take your word over mine on all matters Forth! 05:48:53 mnemnion: you mean hence forth! ;) 05:49:13 mnemnion: i agree with your statement :) 05:50:09 mayuresh: hahahaha well, I respect the old crew but, I don't know that true-grue knows more than me about, say, genetics. it's a big world full of knowledge. Hence, on all matters Forth... ;-P 05:51:54 mayuresh: I'm really weak in genetics. Only exception -- genetic programming :) 05:52:18 I'm finding it a revelation, really. What's funny is it's the second language I learned. If I had actually had a Forth interpreter on my dad's PC, I might have never looked back. 05:52:43 Oh, the last message was to mnemnion, sorry :) 05:53:02 :) 05:53:17 I learned programming from the library from two books: one on BASIC, and Starting Forth. I was right around 10 years old. BASIC, of course, was preinstalled on everything. 05:53:43 mnemnion: you people really had a cool childhood back then :) 05:54:07 i didn't touch 'basic' till i was 14, that too on a school computer for just 30 minutes a week 05:54:37 mayuresh: I was very blessed to grow up in a University town in wealthy America. Most libraries didn't have books on programming, nor did most homes have computers. 05:54:40 Sometimes I'm wondering what would be if my first computer was Jupiter ACE (with Forth in ROM), not ZX Spectrum :) 05:54:57 :) 05:56:21 You'd have to be born in another country for that. 05:56:55 Thus you can phantasise what it would be if you were born in another country from the very beginning. 05:58:23 ASau: That's right. BTW, in those days I've seen some Forth interpreters on ZX cassette tape, but then I just had no idea what is Forth! 05:58:58 I have seen one, it was some kind of FIG Forth. 06:00:28 my favorite thing about this language? I keep looking for abstractions and have yet to find one. 06:01:02 Pf. 06:01:18 I'm always like "a word! surely that's an abstraction" 06:01:20 As if this is good. 06:01:35 well no, it's a cell-aligned block of characters that ends in enough spaces to pad out the cell. 06:01:41 "but the definition!" 06:02:02 no, that's the address in the right cell next to the address of the word, on the dictionary. 06:02:04 "dictionary?" 06:02:06 But that measure Prolog is much better. 06:02:07 linked list 06:02:08 and so on 06:02:21 It has no abstractions other than term. 06:02:32 And term is just as handwavy. 06:03:30 The book, from which I learned about Forth, and many other PLs (like Lisp, Prolog, APL etc): http://www.amazon.com/Computer-Languages-Understanding-computers-Time-Life/dp/0809456796/ref=pd_sim_b_1 06:03:31 Or you can take Lisp which has atoms and cons cells. 06:03:45 Calling the various parts of an engine "piston, crankshaft, spark plug" isn't abstraction, it's just naming things. 06:04:02 mnemnion: now i'm getting it 06:04:44 mnemnion: you've missed your philosophy course, haven't you? 06:05:31 Name is an abstraction of a thing, definitly. 06:06:04 asau: i beg to differ, a name is just a label for a thing 06:06:07 if you want to calculate an address by multiplying the characters of a string together and treating the number as an address, go ahead! You don't even have to typecast. 06:06:19 else we would be pointing at everything ;) 06:06:25 mayuresh: no, a name is not a thing. 06:06:47 asau: as i said, a name is a label for a thing. :) 06:06:49 "naming" is an abstraction, names are not. Mine is mnemnion for our purposes. 06:06:57 When you say "a tree" it is not exactly that tree that grows in the yard outside. 06:07:21 m-n-e-m-n-i-o-n. just numbers. they refer to me. I'm not abstract either. 06:07:51 "animal", that's pretty abstract stuff. explaining to a martian why a plant isn't an animal might take awhile 06:09:01 Just like explaing on another channel who is "mnemnion" and why he is different person than "mnemnion" at some bulletin board. 06:09:17 "Object" is the classic abstraction. It's.... something your computer does to fulfill certain syntax requirements. 06:09:24 Past that, you're on your own. Use the Source. 06:09:42 "Word" and "name" is no less classic. :) 06:11:31 One of the things that attracted me to Lisp, actually: cons cells and symbols in a classic list are pretty well-defined data structures. Lisps hide the machine from you, just barely, but they do. 06:11:56 "The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes'! 06:11:56 "Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" 06:11:56 "No, you don't understand,.. That's what the name is called. The name really is, 'The Aged Aged Man.'" 06:12:28 When you put a value on the stack in Forth: You PUT a VALUE on the STACK 06:12:34 period 06:12:36 (As if Forth doesn't hide the machine from you...) 06:12:39 nothing else happens 06:12:55 mnemnion: that why i'm attracted to forth 06:12:57 I... like this. I like this a lot. 06:13:08 Just to point you that there's only one stack on i386 and Z80, 06:13:08 it's a nice thin interface between me and the machine 06:13:23 there're no stacks at all on 68K. 06:13:48 yep. I can model Lisp, and I can debug my way through C, which is almost like modeling it (modeling the compiler is harder, but not by much). Forth, I just kinda watch it. 06:13:57 Sometimes I don't know how to do what I want to do. Often actually, I just got here. 06:14:05 But I'm never mystified. 06:14:26 it's not "why are macros and functions in the same namespace but variables are in a different one?" 06:14:29 because there's no namespace 06:14:33 not a meaningful concept 06:14:35 there's just a dictionary 06:14:36 :) 06:14:39 which is just a linked list 06:14:50 and if you know how they behave, and what it is to share forward structure, you're good. 06:14:53 ASau: point being that a stack for m68k is an abstraction? 06:14:56 There exist namespaces in Forth since... FIG Forth (1978). 06:15:12 ASau does not contribute to conversation. /ignore. 06:15:18 dzho: yes. 06:15:54 A stack is only an abstraction if you're unaware of how load, add, jmp, and call work. 06:16:02 in which case, you're a buffoon, and get out of this channel please 06:16:09 Basically, you're saying that a7 is a register that may be used by few commands to perform calls. 06:16:11 or a beginner, which is totally 100% chill and cool. 06:16:15 it's a much thinner abstraction than, say, "objects" 06:16:36 it's like say square root is an abstraction because we need an algorithm to calculate one. 06:16:39 fatuous. 06:16:58 dzho: abstraction is still an abstraction however thin it is. 06:17:09 An abacus has a stack, FFS. 06:17:16 dzho: forth actually is a thin interface between the machine and it's user 06:17:25 mayuresh: fair enough 06:17:41 Besides, it is quite easy to imagine object system that is as "thin" as stacks on 68K. 06:18:08 language fundamentalists can do with a little skewering, whatever their, um, object of devotion. 06:18:53 What is more important is that you're using it right now, if you're using BSD-derived system like GNU/linux or MacOS X. 06:19:11 That's how "FILE*" works. 06:19:42 asau: gnu/linux isn't bsd derived 06:19:47 mayuresh: it is. 06:19:54 asau: gnu/linux is posix compliant 06:20:10 You can lift source of glibc and find the code that they took from NetBSD. 06:20:29 asau: they can't afford to do that, the gpl would disallow them from doing it 06:20:31 Or from 4.3BSD directly. 06:20:38 mayuresh: really? 06:20:38 Hey guys? Please /ignore Asau. It makes it harder to read your actual, excellent points, when I have to read your replies to asinine trolling. 06:20:40 thanks! 06:20:51 Perhaps you should lift the source and just read it. 06:20:55 mnemnion: sure 06:21:16 mayuresh: imagine reading the three things you just said, out of context. 06:21:26 it's obviosu that you're talking to a complete fool. 06:21:31 Pf. 06:21:43 mnemnion: lol :D 06:22:54 All I mean to say is, everytime I'm wondering "what is *this* part of Forth" I get a succinct and complete discription of the bit-level behavior of the machine, which supports it. 06:23:17 mayuresh: your misunderstanding of GNU comes from the simple fact that "BSD" is the name of a project rather than licence. 06:23:22 the detail only stops at the architecture-specific point, where it has to. 06:23:39 There exists code that isn't licensed under BSD terms. 06:23:55 In the time it would take me to describe C's preprocessor, someone else could be done describing Forth in its entirety. 06:23:59 that's neat! 06:24:46 mnemnion: yeah, it is :) 06:25:07 In the time one could write a complete chat server you'd struggle with interfacing your NIC. :D 06:25:34 asau: what do you use forth for? 06:25:45 Currently for nothing. 06:25:50 thought so 06:25:58 mayuresh: if Asau provides a link to any software he's written, please tell me. 06:26:03 What do you intend to use Forth for? 06:26:16 my IRC name is my github name btw. 06:26:28 cool :) 06:26:35 Oh, right, cell automaton implementation. :D 06:26:54 We did more complex things at lab. 06:27:27 Publishing your student works is not what one should be proud of. 06:27:53 mnemnion: am reading your github profile using w3m, can't see your email address 06:27:54 :) 06:28:09 mnemnion: you could drop me an email via http://kathe.in/ 06:29:03 asau: i intend to work in the embedded systems arena, with tiny microcontroller based devices, hence forth... :) 06:29:12 yeah I don't provide one as it happens. Will do! 06:31:14 mayuresh: most of the work is done in C these days, so it is unlikely that you find use for your Forth skills. 06:32:19 asau: for the work i'll be doing, c is useless 06:32:26 Are you really sure? 06:32:29 asau: for one thing, c doesn't support reflection 06:32:41 As if you're going to need it. 06:32:45 yes 06:32:49 What for? 06:33:02 i'm working on autonomous systems 06:33:15 And reflection is used... where? 06:33:19 And what for? 06:33:56 asau: i guess if you can't make the link between what i've put it, it wouldn't be worth spending time explaining it 06:34:09 you would be too raw to understand it then 06:34:23 mayuresh: from my vantage you're making the right decision 06:34:40 mnemnion: yes, thanks. :) 06:37:00 mayuresh: vaima.in domain is parked. 06:37:10 I'm kind of astonished that anything other than incremental compilation and interactive systems survived the 80s, at this point 06:37:42 mayuresh: cleartrip indicates that you worked with WWW portals or sort of. 06:37:53 the difference between writing "sketches" for the Arduino and telnetting into a running FlashForth process 06:37:55 Those don't need reflexion. 06:37:57 is *enormous* 06:38:11 asau: vaima -> versatile artificial intelligence for embedded architectures 06:38:53 Just for the record, Smalltalk community fights with problems that come from image-based software development in incremental style. 06:39:10 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 06:39:32 mayuresh: it is easy to write "artificial intelligence", it is harder to explain what exactly it is. 06:39:58 Machine learning community seems to enjoy Java and Python. 06:40:02 Maybe C++. 06:40:28 Information retrieval community does the same. 06:40:30 mayuresh: that's a big idea! any docs? 06:40:37 asau: are you sure you aren't a bot which spews chauffered knowledge? 06:40:52 mnemnion: no, it's going to be a commercial venture 06:41:02 Thrun's team that did Google challenge used C++ and Python. 06:41:16 mayuresh: Asau is a troll. Plain, simple. 06:41:34 the saddest thing about trolls is that they are pathetic, but deliberately behave in a way that destroys all sympathy. 06:41:43 it must be an excruciating existence. 06:41:54 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 06:41:57 mnemnion: the problem has been that i've had this vision for vaima for a long time, but, have been halted by lack of funds and a proper programming environment 06:42:05 If you want to achieve anything, you basically have to deal with what other people have written so far. 06:42:19 If they write in Java, you have to work with Java. 06:42:27 that'll slow ya down alright 06:42:31 i wish my language choice wasn't as limited as it is... i prefer lightweight language interpreters with a lot of modularity 06:42:43 mnemnion: have been using vaima (without revealing the meaning) as a consulting label, am making money 06:42:51 mnemnion: and have now found out forth 06:42:57 so my choices are limited to anything that's not too big (not GHC/Java) and preferably written in C (Lua) or another language that compiles to a language interpreted/compiled in C (MoonScript) 06:42:58 asie: what are you looking for in a language? 06:43:04 mnemnion: so things are looking kind-a bright 06:43:05 asie: and what is the point, if you have to have support for all those languages? 06:43:14 ASau: support != preferability 06:43:21 still looking for a language i like to code in 06:43:30 i'm not even sure what i am looking for... it seems to be like finding your soulmate 06:43:34 it's a bruteforce operation 06:43:50 asie: you never find your soulmate through a bruteforce operation :) 06:43:54 Only remember that while you're looking, other people are writing. 06:43:59 mayuresh: indeed! When I started becoming interested in micros, Forth quickly distinguished itself. 06:44:12 Lua is a sweet little language. Mike Pall is a genius. 06:44:25 Can you imagine a tracing JIT for Forth? I can. It makes me feel all tingly. 06:44:37 :) 06:44:41 ...With such abstracts as arrays, objects and even garbage collection. :D 06:44:56 abstractions 06:44:56 alrighty, gotta go have dinner. 06:45:06 talk to you all in a while :) 06:45:17 cheers! 06:45:22 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "off for dinner") 06:46:22 I've been leaning on Lua more as my go-to for dynamic interpretive sketching. I cut my teeth on Turbo Pascal so there are no gotchas for me, at all 06:46:41 I've coded in C, Java, JavaScript, some Lua, Perl, a bit of Python and checked out Io and Ruby. Maybe a few others. 06:48:37 I tend to use Clojure for things that would otherwise get written in Java or Ruby. I don't like the former and don't know the latter. 06:48:59 I even abuse it slightly for the kind of task that Python or Perl is better suited to. The startup time sucks; I just like the syntax. 06:49:16 asie: try something really different. 06:49:25 ASau: That's why I'm here, for one reason 06:49:26 I suppose I could use Clojurescript on node but that's not what you'd call seamless yet. 06:49:38 The problem is one of my criterias is having a lightweight interpreter 06:49:45 asie: try Scala, Clojure, Common Lisp, Scheme, Prolog. 06:49:56 You're making wrong assumptions. 06:50:05 yeah that's not Clojure at all. Clj is a full-on industrial heavyweight beast. 06:50:05 ASau: My preferred libc is picky about C++ 06:50:12 That's also one of the problems 06:50:24 and I have worked on a Linux distro based around it and plan to reboot that project soon 06:50:40 The problem with wanting lightweight interpreter is that you're stripping yourself off functionality you may need very fast. 06:50:58 ASau: The problem with a heavyweight interpreter is that they drag on a lot of dependencies 06:51:06 and then I need to support them all for the lowest common denominator 06:51:12 Just how is it a problem these days? 06:51:21 well, here we are on #forth; all I can tell you is that pforth and pfe both look good if ANSI is a requirement 06:51:29 pfe gave me compilation problems under clang 06:51:35 pForth is definitly non-compliant. 06:51:37 pforth, not at all, and it's public domain 06:51:51 ASau: One of my friends runs an Intel Atom as his main computer and can't afford anything more. Etc, etc. 06:52:06 These days does not exist - not everyone has the latest and greatest 06:52:12 Schools over here still run on Pentium IIIs and Celerons 06:52:16 tho man, if I had to support anyone but myself I'd probably lean towards Lua 06:52:20 These days are still these days. 06:52:30 ASau: You can't ignore those who can't make the jump 06:52:33 Even the modest hardware is at least P-II. 06:52:37 Lua was written by Brazilians who had a bunch of expensive second-hand old computers 06:53:00 In any case it isn't 80386SX with only 2MB of RAM. 06:53:08 ASau: And most P-II hardware already runs poorly on modern software 06:53:11 by poorly I even mean unusably 06:53:26 I managed to use a 300MHz ARM machine as a usable netbook, though with many compromises 06:53:27 P-II hardware runs X server just fune. 06:53:36 It builds GHC within one day. 06:53:38 Maybe two days. 06:53:39 ASau: >GHC 06:53:45 The 120MB-library compiler? 06:53:49 Haha. No. 06:54:08 What "no"? 06:54:18 I used to build GHC on such machine. :) 06:57:00 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.150.85.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 06:57:01 There exist other alternatives which are more lightweight but almost as powerful. 06:57:07 E.g. O'Caml. 06:57:11 Or SML. 06:57:17 asie: YHBT. 06:57:41 i'm sure asau is a bot 06:58:03 asau written backwards is uasa 06:58:27 now, if you rotate the first two letters, you get ensa - eN-S-A 06:58:31 he's here to collect information on us! D:< 06:58:45 :D 06:58:47 anyway, afk 06:58:54 i have to eat and tell edward about it 06:58:55 mayuresh: just in case, my impression of your resume is that you wouldn't succede in Europe. 06:58:55 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 06:59:09 i'm in india, right! 06:59:23 Maybe in India it is better. 07:00:12 But I have rather bad impression of your programmers. 07:00:28 yeah 07:00:29 Though our GSoC student was brilliant. 07:00:42 you mentored which project? 07:01:13 But then, what he said about India only reassured my bad impression. 07:01:34 asau: you do generate calculated responses 07:01:50 Yes, I do. 07:02:06 almost as if you're playing a game of strategy 07:02:08 chess! 07:02:11 Even though my neural network is developed better than yours. 07:02:22 but, this isn't a chess forum 07:02:38 Just in case you don't know current state of AI, Turing test is broken. :) 07:03:00 asau: did "you" do it? 07:03:06 No. 07:03:11 why not? 07:03:20 Just because I wasn't there. 07:03:26 But you can find reports on that. 07:03:30 aw, come on, did they leave you out of the game? 07:03:41 No. :p 07:04:00 oh, they didn't know you exist. 07:04:10 his train of thought is still boarding at teh station 07:04:14 ;) 07:04:51 maan, o maan, asau, what's the newest crazy statment from you going to be? 07:05:01 why is it taking you so long? 07:05:11 you there/ 07:05:12 ? 07:05:32 You won't believe it how many people would say you're hopeless as programmer. :) 07:05:39 Do you know why? 07:05:47 no, and i don't want to... 07:06:05 his train of thought is still boarding at the station.... ;) 07:06:10 Right, it is bad for your psychological state. 07:06:24 your comments!! yeah really... 07:07:25 It is well-known that people with inferior abilities cannot sustain the knowledge of their inferiority. 07:07:33 there we go.... 07:07:54 is that why you are the way you are? 07:09:28 on-topic; is there an implementation neutral mailing list for forth? 07:14:50 No. 07:14:56 Use news group. 07:15:39 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 07:18:20 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "off to sleep") 07:19:54 hi 07:25:07 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 07:35:43 Asau u mean an ABUSE news group :) 07:52:28 ok now i am totally fucked 07:52:34 i cannot debug my code at all 07:52:41 gdb needs debug information to debug anything 07:53:00 i need a fucking REAL debugger not this pile of shit 07:53:08 i fucking hate the gnu foundation 08:02:16 What is the problem? 08:02:24 If you don't like GDB, don't use it! 08:03:57 richard stallman is why we can't have nice things. 08:04:32 asau the problem is that gdb is the ONLY debugger available for an arm linux system that does not cost thousands of dollars 08:04:43 and gdb will never ***EVER*** be able to debug my code 08:04:53 because i need to single step opcodes that the compiler lays down 08:05:09 gdb refuses to simply single step an opcode unless there is some bullshit debug information for that opcode 08:05:32 "first create an object file for your JIT code and place debug information in that object file" 08:05:41 err WHAT fucking object file 08:06:25 generate the .o with -g3 or w/e 08:06:34 no 08:06:40 c00kiemon5ter: you don't know the full story. :) 08:06:41 i do NOT generate object files 08:06:48 this is not a C compiler 08:06:59 yep I don't, all I know is those lines :D 08:07:03 the code that is comiled is NOT a separate entity to the compiler that compiled it 08:07:04 mark4: the problem is not that. 08:07:31 the code layed down by the compiler becomes a part of that compiler 08:07:33 The problem is that you have created some compiler but didn't bother to create debug support for it. 08:07:45 GNU did bother. 08:08:57 and gdb is too fucking stupid to single step a simple fucking opcode unless mommy has told it what function that opcode belongs to 08:09:00 yea... awesome tools 08:09:24 GDB may be imperfect, but it works for many people. 08:09:45 yes 08:09:49 not for me 08:10:01 If you want it to support what you need, you have access to the source. :) 08:10:50 Or you can pay for another debugger. 08:11:04 You get what you pay for. 08:11:39 i.e. the solution to this problem is to pay the thousands of dollars i dont have to get a real debugger 08:11:47 ty.. glad you cleared that up 08:12:18 No. 08:12:42 You can work on improving GDB, generate debug information, or write your own debugger. 08:14:33 You're telling how Forth is nice, how everything else is oh-so-buggy, 08:14:49 but somehow when you get problems you're resorting to a tool built specifically 08:15:24 to support toolchain based on C, C++, Fortran, Ada and similar conventional languages. 08:15:35 I forgot Objective C. 08:16:02 mark4: have you tried using an ARM emulator? 08:16:28 or an emulator for whatever platform you are using 08:17:32 i used qemu. that was a dead end too 08:17:50 and any emulator i use would HAVE to support ALL arm linux system calls 08:18:13 uhh, emulate a Linux system too? 08:18:21 or perhaps use old-timey debugging methods 08:18:27 like printing out everything you do 08:18:57 printfs wont work 08:19:08 because that will only tell me WHERE the bug happened 08:19:13 ive known that for days 08:19:22 knowing WHERE does not tell you WHY 08:19:26 not always 08:19:26 asie: if he has problems in code generation printing doesn't help. 08:19:31 this is one of those cases 08:26:15 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 08:56:57 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 09:12:23 can you add a subroutine call that dumps your registers and sift through the hex? 09:12:48 cuz you seem to be kinda up a creek, on the one hand, but within a few cycles of your problem on the other 09:19:25 menmonic its actually the code for . "DOT" taht is currently broken 09:20:03 so no. i cant display anything. there is alot of code that belongs to the kernel, that is absolutely required to do anything useful that i placed in extensions 09:20:17 you do not have the ability to output numbers until after you extend 09:20:22 as one example 09:20:41 ah 09:20:54 yes. When you have problems in your io, you have problems. 09:21:11 i can ." 09:21:17 i can even .( afadfasdf ) 09:21:19 i cannot . 09:21:35 : foo .self ; immediate 09:21:53 i often use definitions like that for printf during compile and run time 09:22:15 well, bon chance ami. that sounds like a beast. 09:22:22 what are you working on, may I ask? 09:23:00 native threaded embedded arm forth 09:23:20 I am interested in your ideas and would like to subscribe to your mailing list. 09:23:59 i dont have a mailing list, i dont think i would want one lol i hate mailing lists :P 09:24:09 the code is too broken to release yet too 09:24:16 well 09:24:39 its actually mostly working, it is compiling many of the extensions just fine 09:24:40 I'd be content with a github stub that I could watch for code 09:25:06 yea well i dont ever want to have anything to do with git or github 09:25:15 ...oh 09:25:17 i do not trust github any more than i trust google 09:25:19 or microsoft 09:25:47 i never release things via github, when this is released it will simply be a bzip on www.isforth.com 09:26:03 im not a project manager 09:26:08 im simply a dood who codes 09:26:29 if thers any project management involved i lose interest in the project in about 3 seconds flat 09:27:09 Oh isforth! superb, that and forthOS I've been looking at 09:28:09 I know enough of the github posse to trust them provisionally for now. I know enough Xooglers to trust the Goog like I trust Mussolini 09:28:30 and yet, they haz my emailz! so it goes. 09:29:07 I can unroll a tarball just fine. isforth is a native kernel, correct? 09:29:11 it's not linux hosted? 09:30:47 most of the kernel code links just vanish into thin php 09:32:10 lol 09:32:16 they haz my emailz too 09:32:32 im not letting them haz the cheezeburgherz!!!!! 09:32:52 its not a native compiler, its direct threaded 09:33:17 the kernel is pure assembler 09:33:42 but i use "clever" ? nasm macros that allow nasm to lay down code identical to what a forth meta compiler would lay down 09:33:50 so its also in direct threaded forth 09:33:57 this all sounds lovely 09:34:15 do you code forth? 09:34:19 just learning? 09:34:24 because, so I have this beaglebone, and this raspberry pi, and they run what, linux? 09:34:35 I'm not 'just learning' but I am just starting 09:35:00 yea i was developing my arm forth on my raspberry pi when i broke the flash port. very brittle plastic there 09:35:04 im going to replace it 09:35:09 I'm well in the deep end and swimming further out. My desk is covered in microcontrollers and breadboards 09:35:13 i bought the beagle board xm to continue development 09:35:49 i have to go to the store actually and get a gizmo i can scavange the flash card connector from 09:35:57 to transplant it to my pi 09:36:12 linux gives me everything I don't need: multiple users, partitioned file access, virtual memory, preemptivity, and it goes on and on and on 09:36:23 yup 09:36:33 so AdaFruit has these NeoPixels, which you can drive from a dinky-arse Arduino, but a Raspberry? Nope 09:36:40 anyway, im gona go to the store and get that gizmo lol. i want my pi back up and running 09:36:44 Linux makes it too stupid to reliably hit 700hz 09:36:49 700hz! It makes me angry. 09:36:57 you can bump the pi up to 900 09:37:05 no no mark : H Z 09:37:13 oooooh 09:37:15 duh 09:37:15 you need a 700 hz timing to drive the neopixel. 09:37:20 not Mhz lol 09:37:22 raspberry can't do that! 09:37:26 it's absurd 09:37:27 anyay brb, got to go to the store 09:37:32 cheers 09:37:33 quick run 09:38:16 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-25-30-182.midd-bam-1.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 09:43:07 --- join: RJones (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 09:46:46 mnemnion: did you consider trying things like linux-rt 09:46:50 optimized for more realtime things? 09:47:06 or maybe older OSes that run on the Pi such as RISC OS 09:47:17 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 09:52:46 nah. if I'm going to be stuck with C I'll stick to the supported environments 09:53:27 a lot of people want a small server when they get a RaspPI. that makes sense and all, but esp. with the BeagleBone, what I want is a "microcontroller" with ludicrous amounts of cognitive ability 09:53:35 bbiab 09:54:41 --- quit: RJones (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 10:38:00 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 10:40:33 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 10:46:59 --- quit: dessos (Quit: leaving) 10:59:27 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 11:03:58 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 11:04:41 --- quit: jevin (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 11:45:57 --- join: jevin (~jevin@72.12.217.220) joined #forth 12:07:53 but forth has down sides too 12:08:04 erm miss chann 12:11:22 heh 12:12:05 is there anything that doesn't? brushing your teeth I guess 12:15:23 mark4: does gdb's "stepi" not work? i haven't tried it yet but had similar complaints when trying to dbg my code on chip 12:15:48 no 12:16:12 when you stepi the jump into the code that my compiler lays down it tells you "cannot access address 0" 12:16:31 you can then disp /3i $pc and see that the program counter is at the correct code 12:16:39 but any single steps result in NOTHING being single stepped 12:17:03 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:17:40 i just got a reply from the GDB mailing list telling me "you can just use stepi !" to which i replied yea... right up until im stepping code that has no debug info associated with it 12:21:52 is it a glitch w/having any debug code? if you stripped the bin does that make a diff? 12:22:26 strip the bin and gdb refuses to debug it 12:22:48 sorry for your pain - it's been frustrating for me as well and i've had to introduce guard tests and compares into my code bc the OCD starts running code before the debugger attaches so it'll crash before i can see where it's at, etc. 12:24:17 actualy no. it wil debug it. let me see if it will debug the JIT code 12:24:56 it single steps into the code but then reports "cannot find bounds of current function" 12:25:29 and refuses to single step further 12:26:58 that is weird. i'd expect stepi to work but you've outlined that issue already. it's possible there's a bug b/c it seems like it should work for you 12:27:51 i'll try the stepi stuff myself later on my stm32 and see if i get the same issue - i was frustrated when the asm macros i wrote were atomic steps, too 12:28:27 clang does cross-compile for the ARM. I don't know if the llvm toolchain would help you 12:28:42 it sounds like you're generating your own ASM so jumping ships is likely not an option 12:29:41 thats the entire point of the compiler 12:29:58 and for gdb to puke on single stepping ANY opcodes is utterly moronic 12:30:21 oh im sorry, i cant see where the current function ends, im going to have to TOTALLY REFUSE to single step any opcodes. kthxbai 12:37:42 It's not written for the likes of you, mark 12:38:24 Please use Gforth. The Free Software Movement has generously provided it for all of us to use. 12:39:18 Seriously, though, the FSF doesn't think in terms of providing an assembler that you can actually use as an assembler 12:39:36 it's there so that GCC can exist, and everything else is supposed to be written in C. 12:40:19 mark4: I dig what you're doing and targeting the architecture directly is a great idea. I wish you had better tools to work with. 12:40:30 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 12:40:41 I'm also starting to become curious if anyone's written a Forth kernel that targets LLVM. that's an interesting balance between tools, portability, and speed. 12:42:43 Hey listen, I've got a whole Raspberry Pi just sitting here. I'll put IsForth on it as soon as it's half-baked. 12:42:59 I'm fine with it segfaulting every five minutes, if it boots to a prompt. 12:45:29 forth does not need llvm llvm would be like using gcc to compile forth 12:46:20 well, you're totally right about that, right up to the implied period ;-) 12:46:52 There's no need that I can see. But llvm is not GCC. 12:47:01 in fact the whole point of LLVM is to not be GCC. 12:47:41 GCC just munges everything together and generates ASM through dark magic. 12:47:56 I'm told the preprocessor for code gen looks like something from the Mad Arab. 12:48:19 put it this way: if there were LLVM chips, they would make an excellent Forth target 12:50:08 as I said though, I'm way into an Acorn Forth kernel. that's a boss idea you have going and I think this is the right time for it to go places 13:04:13 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 13:11:49 --- quit: jevin (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 13:26:30 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131025151332]) 13:38:14 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 14:37:20 --- join: erg (~erg@li32-38.members.linode.com) joined #forth 14:37:43 anyone going to forth day? (nov 16, this saturday at stanford) 14:41:09 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 14:45:48 are those things fun/relevant? i heard it's largely just random stuff and not very forth related 14:46:25 i've never been, but chuck moore is talking 14:46:43 i'm going with slava pestov (factor) 14:47:09 oh cool. maybe i'll drive down 14:48:00 dont drive too far :p 14:48:34 it's under 2 hours unlesss traffic is horrible 14:54:51 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 15:21:19 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:04:43 --- join: jevin (~jevin@72.12.217.220) joined #forth 16:08:27 slava is going to go see CM? im jelous lol 16:08:41 and why is slava not in here 16:09:29 ask cm if i can haz a job :P~ 16:09:59 cept that wouldnt work for me, no way im EVER moving to commyfornia 16:13:12 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 16:26:19 --- quit: mark4 (Quit: Leaving) 16:26:35 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@192.241.205.8) joined #forth 16:30:46 i don't think charles does much outside of chip design these days. maybe i'm wrong about that 16:31:16 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@83.82.69.86.rev.sfr.net) joined #forth 16:34:00 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 16:34:05 anyone here right now? 16:34:19 can someone go into #gentoo-ops and give me the names of all the opers in there? 16:34:22 mark4_: stepi works for me w/gdb and openocd - 16:34:30 one of the opers is being abusive with me 16:34:59 the UI is weird bc it doesn't show the opcodes as it does them - have to disassem to trace progress, but it worked 16:35:02 i need a list of opers in #gentoo-ops 16:35:06 stm32f4, fyi 16:35:55 can you get me that list of opers in #gentoo-ops? 16:36:21 not at the moment 16:36:30 --- part: mark4_ left #forth 16:50:32 ...now he's gone and i have info for him. *sigh* 17:06:38 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-207-204-173-8.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:10:56 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 17:12:50 mark4, of all people, is complaining about people being "abusive"?! 17:13:08 The guy who threw a temper tantrum yesterday when someone made a harmless joke? That guy? 17:13:13 *HE* is complaining about abuse? 17:13:33 Man, the universe just imploded from the recursive irony building to black hole levels. 17:16:19 ttmrichter: yday iirc you said the stm32f0 was ~$1 USD ? 17:16:32 The F030 is about $0.70. 17:16:39 The F051 is about a buck. 17:18:18 is there a secret supplier? digikey is showing cheapest stm32 arm m0 at $2.42/ea 17:18:47 ideally in a form factor that's solderable by hand 17:19:55 oh - n/m DK wasn't sorting by price after alloops again - 0 in stock min order of 1480 17:22:51 $2.30 is as cheap as i can find em - do you have a better supplier for them? 17:24:00 Well PERSONALLY I have a great supplier: the account manager for China. 17:24:19 But I was quoting prices from STM's web page. 17:25:28 From their web page, an STM32F030R8 is $0.733 and the list RUTRONIK and MOUSER as distributors. 17:25:43 RUTRONIK has a minimum order of 160, but MOUSER has a minimum order of 1. 17:25:58 http://www.st.com/web/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1574/LN1826/PF258964?s_searchtype=partnumber# 17:28:39 huh. inflation acts fast. still $2.21 on mouser 17:29:03 Well the price on ST's board is, of course, for large orders. 17:29:15 If you're talking about buying a single one you'll pay more, obviously. 17:29:19 ah - @10000 quantity the price is less than that. yeah 17:32:33 --- join: mark4_ (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 18:04:08 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 18:04:43 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:09:18 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:27:32 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFFCA9.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 18:30:41 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:55:27 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 19:02:49 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 19:04:06 --- join: beretta (~beretta@74.135.127.101) joined #forth 19:10:33 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 19:11:57 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 19:15:59 --- quit: nisstyre (Disconnected by services) 19:16:15 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 19:18:49 --- quit: karswell (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 19:19:53 --- join: karswell (~user@87.114.85.91) joined #forth 19:55:10 --- quit: mark4_ (Remote host closed the connection) 20:26:26 http://www.osnews.com/story/27416/The_second_operating_system_hiding_in_every_mobile_phone accordint to this article, why dont they written their firmware using forth? 20:38:57 interesting article 20:39:40 I'm assuming that the base-band os runs on it's own processor. 20:40:18 --- join: jonkeydonk (b8420981@gateway/web/freenode/ip.184.66.9.129) joined #forth 20:42:02 yes and it said there is a 70 byte exploit for people to execute any code 20:42:12 73, don't exaggerate ! 20:44:36 and they said its just arm arch 20:44:54 so is it possible to sent a forth vm over the air 20:45:03 hahaha 20:45:12 and sent word sequence for execution 20:45:16 a forth phone virus ? 20:45:23 i remember itsy forth has a 1k vm without compiler 20:45:38 * kulp makes a movie about this 20:45:49 which movie? 20:46:14 I'm still making it ! 20:46:41 a forth for ARM would prolly by bigger - it's 32 bit aligned. 20:47:50 I think cell phones are already a virus and plague. 20:48:33 lol 20:48:54 well arm has thumb ins 20:48:56 which is 16 bit 20:50:11 true... I forgot about thumb. 20:50:43 The instruction size isn't the issue. 20:50:47 The cell size is. 20:51:12 There's not a lot of actual CODE in an average Forth implementation. 20:51:19 It's all lists of pointers, in effect. 20:51:26 And the pointers are still 32-bit, even in Thumb. 20:51:57 and a minimal forth for virus dont require too much code size , isnt it? 20:52:28 Depends on how sophisticated you'd want to get. There are real-world viruses that are megabytes in size and do a whole lot of stuff. 20:52:43 An equivalent virus in Forth might even be as large as 64KB! :-o 20:53:07 you mean which has a ANSI compitable layer? 20:53:41 now come-on ttmrichter! 64 KB?!?! nobody will ever use that much memory! 20:53:54 :) 20:54:19 :D 20:54:35 (Mind you the original quote was for 640KB.) 20:54:36 btw, python has an small stack language for its data serializing 20:54:56 which dont need space as the delimiter 20:55:18 There's nothing magical about the space. Any character could be a delimiter. 20:57:04 i think the brandband os is the reason why RMS dont use mobilephone? 20:57:16 I define space as anything less or equal to ascii 0x20. 20:58:35 hahaha stallman's a nut-job. 20:59:52 I thought it would be cool to make a bit-wise forth... like with lz and huffman encoding 21:00:43 huffman encoding require you to analyzing the whole data 21:00:54 like encode primitives down to 3 or 4 bits of data. 21:01:44 but decoding doesn't require this no? 21:01:57 well modern cpu has some optimized for c model 21:02:24 and cache align is really important for performance 21:02:36 except you use moore's GA144 :] 21:03:07 true... I was thinking theoretically (and but the 32 bit alignment to rest) 21:03:40 * beretta googles GA144 21:04:08 oh... his chips. 21:05:27 yes his cheep chip 21:08:19 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 21:14:44 --- join: dessos (~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 21:19:46 --- quit: kumul (Quit: Leaving) 21:23:27 I wish there was an AFFORDABLE eval board for the GA144. 21:24:26 what do they go for? 21:25:56 but the chip is affordable 21:26:48 beretta: The only eval board out there currently is $450. 21:27:07 I want to make one that targets about $50. 21:27:14 wait 21:27:34 hmm.. $450 is a bit steep for goofing around. 21:27:45 beretta: Yep. 21:28:09 And at this point the GA144 is still mostly a curiosity. They really should be targeting the curious because I doubt they have a lot of serious users yet. 21:30:11 they used to have a cheap package with one chip and a board 21:30:20 gp... sell the dev board at a deep discount -then let the hackers popularize it. Then charge more money (for the chip itself) after the market matures. 21:30:27 but now it gone 21:32:46 the board is schmartboard 21:35:44 jyf: You can buy that at schmartboards' site still. 21:35:57 But it's just a chip with a breakout board. That's not an eval board. 21:36:36 ttmrichter: yes but schmartboard seems easily to extend as it claimed 21:36:55 You are (again) missing the point entirely. 21:37:47 because english is not my native lang 21:37:48 Take any chip with breakout pins. 21:37:57 It's still UTTERLY FUCKING USELESS as-is. 21:38:30 No power supply/converter. No debugging capabilities. No crystal/clock/whatever. 21:38:32 then what do you want? 21:38:34 No peripherals to bit-bash. 21:38:41 It's just a chip with its pins extended. 21:38:43 I want an eval board. 21:38:58 Look at the STM*DISCOVERY line for a nearly perfect example of what I mean. 21:39:12 okay do that, if the price is $50 i think i could buy 2 or 4 samples 21:39:24 i have friends also interested of ga144 21:39:34 I can take any of my Discovery boards, plug it into a USB port, fire up my dev tools and start working right away. 21:39:43 No soldering. No component scrounging. No breadboarding. 21:39:48 Out of the box and up and running. 21:40:20 I'm currently talking to GreenArrays about just such a thing, so ... let's hope it bears out. 21:43:45 i think they might not good at it 21:43:59 other one might do it better , so they give a lower price of chip 21:56:39 --- join: Bahman1 (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 21:57:02 jyf: dynamic Huffman coding works on the fly. 21:57:23 ASau: i've no idea on dynamic huffman coding 21:58:00 The same Huffman coding, only frequencies and the tree are recalculated on the fly. 21:58:10 --- quit: Bahman (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 21:58:31 And there exist serious reasons why these companies will not recode anything in Forth. 21:59:25 so the data need to be segmault based? 22:03:57 --- quit: Bahman1 (Quit: Leaving.) 22:04:13 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 22:06:48 Didn't parse the last. 22:26:28 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:26:51 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@TOROON12-1279662182.sdsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 22:27:48 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:29:25 g'night all. 22:30:52 --- quit: beretta (Quit: Leaving) 22:31:43 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 22:59:28 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 23:03:02 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 23:07:03 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 23:52:37 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.11.12