00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.11.11 00:11:10 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 00:11:46 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 00:16:17 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 00:33:06 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 00:35:21 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:35:43 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@TOROON12-1279662182.sdsl.bell.ca) joined #forth 00:36:51 --- quit: nighty- (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 00:40:37 --- join: nighty- (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 01:03:28 --- quit: spoofer3 (Remote host closed the connection) 01:13:18 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 01:26:43 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 01:27:02 hehe, took me a minute to understand this wasn't just a list of characters: : ? @ . ; 01:33:53 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-25-78-162.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:34:58 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~ErhardtMu@host157-79-dynamic.23-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 01:44:34 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 01:55:33 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 02:12:15 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:16:31 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 02:28:59 Sure it is. 02:29:03 It's a list of characters. 02:29:06 That define a word. :) 02:35:34 --- join: impomatic (~chatzilla@87.113.178.250) joined #forth 02:47:55 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 02:48:27 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 03:04:09 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 03:07:04 --- join: ASau (~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 03:17:58 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 03:24:22 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 04:11:58 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 04:16:34 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 04:19:30 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 05:05:40 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.158.102.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 05:05:53 hello :) 05:08:40 hey 05:08:49 hi ecraven :) 05:18:37 Welcome back mayuresh. 05:18:54 ah, ttmrichter!! :) 05:19:23 can i call you michael? :) 05:19:35 Sure, but it won't flag my client. 05:19:38 ttm will, though. 05:19:46 oh, ok 05:20:16 thanks for yesterdays guidance :) 05:20:38 because of our discussion on 'til' and assembly, i found the right book 05:20:45 on machine architecture 05:20:54 that was what i've been hunting for a while now 05:21:05 just didn't know what to look for. :) 05:21:28 Which book did you pick? 05:21:48 "write great code - volume 1" by randall hyde 05:22:03 Yeah, Hyde has some good advice. 05:22:16 i was so lost till yesterday 05:22:33 all i heard from various people was a whole lot of vague comments 05:22:37 He's a bit obsessed with bit bashing, but if you really want to understand what's going on under your abstractions you need to read a book like that. 05:22:50 yes 05:22:58 that way, my foundations would get really strong 05:22:58 If you need any other advice I can usually point you to a book. 05:23:05 I have a rather sizable library. 05:23:06 :) 05:23:08 :) 05:23:10 sure 05:23:47 it's strange that, i've been programming for 17 years, but, never felt confident about my skills 05:24:08 i never could understand what was happening under the hood 05:24:20 and then, there i was, floating around in abstractions 05:24:36 utter waste :( 05:24:57 Some very dark things happen when you go that way. 05:25:10 Like the "Schlemiel the Painter" problems. 05:26:35 reading on wikipedia 05:27:32 yeah, i've been like that 05:28:00 putting it succinctly; i have been just a "coder", not even a "programmer" 05:28:13 leave alone a "developer" and far away from being a "software engineer". 05:29:07 You've been a program stenographer? ;) 05:29:19 rotfl :D 05:29:33 In my opinion there are no software engineers. 05:29:44 ? 05:29:47 There is nobody anywhere coding with the rigour that a good engineer would require. 05:29:55 yeah, that's true 05:29:56 And the industry has no engineering principles worth mentioning. 05:30:02 i'm a fabricatio engineer by education 05:30:15 Yeah, so you know what I'm talking about. 05:30:28 Whenever I meet a self-proclaimed "software engineer" I ask to see their logbook. 05:30:33 and if we designed bridges the way software is designed, humanity would've been wiped out by now 05:30:35 I'm met 100% of the time with blank stares. 05:30:41 --- quit: Bahman (Quit: Leaving.) 05:31:29 a log-book would be something like the "black book" we were trained to maintain during engineering? 05:31:59 a black book is full of our mistakes, our observations and are learnings from post-mortems of failures 05:32:06 Yes. 05:32:10 That book. 05:32:10 nice 05:32:44 EVERY electrical engineer I've worked with had such a logbook (or at least instantly knew what I was talking about, even if they'd gotten out of the habit). 05:32:47 100%. 05:33:04 yes, it's part of our hard engineering training 05:33:10 I've *NEVER* met a "software engineer" who knew what I was talking about unless they came out of real engineering by accident. 05:33:22 :) 05:33:37 Note: I don't maintain such a logbook either. 05:33:41 :D 05:33:44 But I don't call myself an engineer. 05:33:48 :D 05:34:00 I was at best a developer. 05:34:08 And now I'm a dilettante. 05:35:03 so you are no more a software professional? ;) 05:35:21 Nope. I quit the highly toxic industry. 05:35:39 I may return, but only in the form of writing firmware for my own hardware. 05:35:59 how does being a dilettante pay though 05:36:02 ;) 05:36:08 hmnn, that way you get to stay on the outer fringes and control your destiny. 05:36:32 kulp: I'm currently just shy of my old salary in software (not including my old stock options which were worth quite a bit for a while). 05:36:40 And I work a whole lot fewer hours to do it. 05:36:46 hurray ! 05:36:48 mayuresh: Exactly. 05:36:49 :) 05:37:02 Basically I'm tired of building shit on a tower of shit. 05:37:15 I'll just build my shit hut, thank you very much. :) 05:37:31 :) 05:38:34 ttmrichter: you're cool 05:38:46 I'm bitter. There's a difference. 05:39:04 a friend had once told me; destiny isn't a matter of chance, it's a matter of choice. 05:39:29 choose well... :) 05:39:42 or rather, choose to choose, and all will be well... :) 05:41:24 I was brought up with a similar maxim: The harder I work the luckier I get. 05:42:09 yes, there's a slight twist though, the harder you work with conviction, the luckier you'll get... 05:42:16 Well, yeah. 05:42:25 If you haven't got conviction it's not work, it's marking time. 05:42:31 :) 05:46:23 actually, i could exhibit guts by maintaining a publicly viewable log-book 05:46:36 and then i could call it my blog. ;) 05:46:59 it would who a potential recruiter (the good types) what i'm made of. :) 05:47:13 who -> show 05:47:48 ttmrichter: that was a great tip, it never occured to me before 05:47:57 a log-book 05:48:10 today has been the worst day of the year 05:48:17 >broke old 2008 computer's mobo socket 05:48:19 >almost broke SSD drive 05:48:26 >made a tiny dent in my aluminum laptop 05:48:31 all accidentally, all in 30 minutes 05:48:48 asie: how did you manage so much of distruction? 05:49:09 the mobo socket got destroyed when i was cleaning it from dust 05:49:09 a pin went missing 05:49:27 the SSD drive got the pins bent due to horrid materials, i unbent them and added some padding to the cable to make it work 05:49:35 and the dent... no idea. might've been my dog 05:49:48 asie: you have a really wild life... ;) 05:51:59 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 05:56:23 ttmrichter: do you have a web[page|site]? 05:56:47 i wish to give you credit for that root of the idea about logbook 05:56:52 I had some rants up on Postagon, but they dropped the free level so you can't read them. 05:57:04 I've got a site at michael.richter.name, but no content yet because I'm too lazy. 05:57:15 I really should see a doctor about that laziness. 05:57:18 :) 05:57:28 it might just be a lack of motivation 05:57:43 arising out of being disgruntled with the direction this industry is taking 05:58:26 Well I quit the industry so that's not it. :) 05:58:35 :) 05:58:37 No, mostly it's a five year old son sucking the energy out of me. 05:58:57 a baby boy! bundle of joy! :) 05:59:11 or is it more like; dimpled chin, devil within! ;) 05:59:46 More like the latter. 06:00:57 :) 06:10:31 ttmrichter: i would really want to give you attribution for sowing the germ of the idea of a software engineering log-book 06:10:42 please take a look at http://kathe.in/logbook.html 06:14:22 Congratulations! You are a threat to Chinese state security. 06:14:39 Hang on while I circumvent their measures. 06:15:14 :o 06:15:29 OK. Back. 06:15:50 Interesting idea putting it out in public like that. 06:17:12 that way, peers know the truth about my skills and level of professional maturity. 06:20:36 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@ANice-552-1-235-245.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 06:32:13 gotta go have dinner. 06:32:45 ttmrichter: please suggest a way in which i can give you credit where due. 06:32:49 :) 06:32:51 ttyl 06:33:01 Point to my domain. 06:33:10 I'll eventually get around to putting stuff into it. :) 06:33:18 does anyone know a site that has simple forth problems and solutions? to try and study? 06:33:30 michael.richter.name! 06:33:43 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 06:34:12 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "off to dinner") 06:38:35 ecraven: Closest I can think of would be looking at the problems and solutions at RosettaCode. 06:39:02 Be aware, though, that many of the solutions (in all the languages) are written by people with a poor grasp of the languages' idioms. 06:58:47 hm.. how would I learn idiomatic forth :) I've worked through Starting Forth. 07:01:45 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.158.102.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 07:02:02 hello :) 07:02:48 hey mayuresh 07:03:00 hi ecraven :) 07:17:36 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 07:20:14 Back for more are you mayuresh? 07:20:25 ecraven: Read Forth code by people who are Forth writers. 07:20:34 Mako source code is nice, for example. 07:20:41 Well-written by someone who groks Forth quite well.. 07:20:44 ttmrichter: yes! :) 07:21:42 i finally got "swiftforth" to work on my ubuntu based x86-64 hardware 07:27:00 I need to get the latest version of that. 07:27:03 gforth sucks. 07:27:43 don't know if gforth sucks, but, swiftforth works well with the tutorial on forth.com 07:29:58 Odd that... ;) 07:30:06 :D 07:33:30 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 07:37:23 mayuresh: Once you've polluted your brain with all the low-level stuff, as a refresher you might want to look at one of the more extremely high level languages to break your brain in the other direction. 07:37:28 * ttmrichter nominates Mercury. 07:38:12 okay, but, i really am going to stay with forth for really long time 07:38:24 I've stayed with forth since the '80s. 07:38:26 * true-grue suggests Refal :) 07:38:42 It's increasingly difficult to get Refal working on modern hardware and OSes. :( 07:38:50 Last try I made failed completely. 07:38:58 ttmrichter: sticking with forth for so long is really admirable 07:39:07 I didn't stick EXCLUSIVELY with Forth. 07:39:23 i will, hopefully... :) 07:39:28 Indeed I don't stick exclusively with anything. I view one-language developers in about the same way I'd view one-wrench mechanics. 07:39:59 i'm approaching forth from the opposite direction relative to your start on forth 07:40:09 "I use an 18mm wrench for everything." â we'd think anybody who talked that way was insane 07:40:32 you started low-level and moved higher, which is the right way to go 07:40:34 "I use only the FoobieBletch programming language." â this, however, seems to be acceptable for some bizarre reason 07:41:02 Yeah, I kind of did. Not from any innate virtue mind. 07:41:15 i intend to stick with avr programming for the foreseable future 07:41:32 and intend to control avrs using amforth 07:41:41 I mean I started with BASIC, really, but that was just play and I didn't do any SERIOUS work until ... ugh! AVR ... I found the brief joy of 6502 assembler. 07:42:10 you are indeed awe inspiring 07:42:17 Good Forth programmer is also a some kind of specialist in computer languages design. So you really need to be familiar with some dozens of PLs :) 07:42:35 true-grue: There's an element of truth to that. 07:42:46 ttmrichter: your internal compass must be really powerful 07:42:46 Although I submit that knowing natural languages from a variety of families helps too. 07:43:05 mayuresh: Is that a polite way of saying I have a light touch of the whole autism thing? :D 07:43:22 :D 07:43:37 nah, it means, you have managed to stay pointed in the right direction all along 07:43:41 and that's amazing 07:44:01 you followed the right path, though less travelled by others 07:44:13 Well, except for that whole stupid path of actually working in software. 07:44:23 That nearly killed the joy I had in programming. 07:44:52 yeah, it does in most of the best in the field 07:45:04 Oh, I'm by no means in the category of "best in the field". 07:45:15 There's people I interact with (literally) daily whom I hold in awe. 07:45:27 Like one guy who's on the Mercury development team. 07:45:50 His Ph.D. thesis was auto-parallelization of Mercury code. 07:46:15 (Yes, Mercury can tell when making code go parallel will actually be a benefit and when it's not warranted or even possible.) 07:46:42 ttmrichter: looking up at someone is a relative thing 07:46:53 there's always someone looking up to someone else :) 07:47:44 Well, until you hit the Dunning-Kruger effect. 07:50:32 :) 07:53:03 Anyway, bedtime for bozo here. Chat later. 07:53:33 sleep well :) 07:54:16 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 07:56:01 hey asie, how've you been? 07:56:04 fine 07:56:15 i needed a rest after my triple accident combo 07:56:34 the SSD isn't dead, at least - other than the tiny and unnoticeable in normal usage dent in my laptop it was the most expensive component 07:56:39 the mobo is worth $60, maybe 07:59:34 alrighty, i gotta hit bed too... 07:59:48 have a good time ahead, ladies and gentlemen... :) 08:00:06 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "winding up for the day") 08:03:43 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 08:05:22 ttmrichter: thanks, i'll check that out! 08:10:35 --- join: spoofer3 (~spoofer3@2600:100f:b02f:7008:f8e4:9323:74f5:77a0) joined #forth 08:21:10 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 08:34:18 --- part: dessos_ left #forth 08:35:03 is there a forth that supports calling external C functions? how would that work from forthh? 08:38:05 * ASau knows at least seven implementations of that. 08:46:08 :) could you point me towards one or two? 08:46:49 I really like the feature where you can import the function with specifying its C prototype (you need to implement a tiny DSL for that). 08:47:51 how do you deal with calling back into forth from C, regarding the extra stacks? 08:49:37 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 08:49:49 true-grue: there're at least two different implementations of that in Gforth and at least one in SP-Forth. 08:54:04 ASau: Like here? http://fun-factor.blogspot.ru/2007/10/getting-started-with-factor-easy-ffi.html 08:55:44 Is that Forth? 08:57:47 I'm asking is SP-Forth, for example, FFI implementation has the same power/usability as in Factor by my link? 08:59:25 I don't remember SP-Forth's way. 08:59:54 But if you would stop bashing gforth, you'd learn that it has this in examples: 08:59:58 c-function dlseek lseek n d n -- d 09:01:53 Thanks, but I know how it work in gForth. 09:12:45 ...And SP-Forth doesn't need that since C stack and Forth data stack are the same. 09:13:45 Conversion between different data models is another problem. 09:14:01 It isn't clear whether it can be solved reasonably well, 09:14:55 since there exist strange conventions on using data of variable length. 09:25:20 --- quit: asie (Quit: I'll probably come back in either 20 minutes or 8 hours.) 09:25:56 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 09:30:51 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 09:51:52 --- join: ASau (~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 09:52:43 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 09:53:36 --- join: ASau (~user@p54AFF3EB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 09:56:48 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-207-204-173-8.prtc.net) joined #forth 09:57:36 --- quit: kumul (Client Quit) 10:04:47 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 10:22:35 --- quit: ASau (Remote host closed the connection) 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ASau (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 18:30:03 --- part: spoofer3 left #forth 18:32:23 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:32:43 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 18:33:01 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 18:35:15 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.60.196) joined #forth 18:37:11 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 18:40:11 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 18:48:39 --- quit: spoofer3_ (Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )) 19:13:22 --- join: dessos (~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:14:59 --- join: MalcolmX86 (~JonDohnso@75.157.24.52) joined #forth 19:19:09 --- part: MalcolmX86 left #forth 19:19:54 --- join: MalcolmX86 (~JonDohnso@75.157.24.52) joined #forth 19:21:00 --- part: MalcolmX86 left #forth 19:21:31 --- join: MalcolmX86 (~JonDonson@75.157.24.52) joined #forth 19:49:41 --- quit: MalcolmX86 (Remote host closed the connection) 20:07:14 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 20:26:24 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 20:41:03 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 20:52:39 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.134.30.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 20:52:57 hello :) 20:54:52 Good afternoon mayuresh. 20:55:29 ah ttmrichter :) 20:55:43 good afternoon-ish ;) 21:03:34 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 21:14:26 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "brb") 21:17:42 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.134.30.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 21:20:07 ttm: am i really on china's state enemy list? 21:20:10 :) 21:20:22 mayuresh: why? 21:20:24 wonder why 21:20:39 jyf: yesterday ttm mentioned something along those lines 21:20:45 Your page is blocked by the Great Firewall, so obviously you are an enemy of the state, Q.E.D. :D 21:20:51 :D 21:21:00 that's really strange 21:21:02 maybe its just some keyword that trigger the GFW 21:21:12 or just the ip used by someone else 21:21:38 it's a shared host 21:21:51 actually a set of static pages hosted via github 21:22:03 GFW is like a petty girl 21:22:12 :) 21:22:49 GFW is more like a petty old man. 21:22:51 github has some problem in china 21:23:00 oh, okay 21:23:03 s/in china/ 21:23:08 s/in china// 21:23:19 and since these days is the party's conference day, so that's a normal case 21:23:19 Github sucks if you're not in North America and in some parts of Europe. 21:23:36 well github hosted on amazon 21:23:46 ec2!! 21:23:48 that's the one who sucks 21:24:16 well i guess im royaly FUCKED 21:24:24 thers no way for me to debug my arm forth kernel 21:24:25 mark4: what happened? 21:24:41 mark4: are you using amforth? 21:24:51 gah, sorry, that's only for avr 21:24:52 mark4: there is a rpi cloud project,which you could host your rpi there 21:24:53 my bad 21:25:01 no i have my own avr forth 21:25:08 now i almost have my own ARM forth 21:25:16 cool 21:25:19 avr is expensinve compared to arm device 21:25:24 is it? 21:25:26 problem is there are bugs and every fucking front end for gdb is a complete and utter waste of time 21:25:27 yes 21:25:44 jyf: mega169pv costs 20 cents in units 21:25:48 avr is comparable price wise to PIC. only slightly more expensive 21:25:50 lower in volumes 21:25:53 for invinitly more useful 21:26:29 ddd segfaults but continues to run but when i step into code my compiler just layed down it refuses to show anything 21:26:38 insight segfaults eveyr 2 or 3 opcodes 21:27:01 aslked over 8 hours ago in #eclipse if there is an arm version of the CDT and have zero replies so far 21:27:03 mayuresh: you need check the resource 21:27:07 yep 21:27:30 jyf: it's a 8mhz uc 21:27:40 which is kinda good enough for home automation projects 21:27:41 :) 21:27:43 i tried kdevelop and cant even figure out how to launch the fucking debugger 21:27:44 what about the ram and flash? 21:28:01 nemiver wont do assembler only source 21:28:14 i.e. if one line of source equates to 28465854928654 opcodes you step ALL of them 21:28:35 qt creator also cannot even fathom how to use 21:28:35 jyf: 16kb of flash and 512 bytes of eeprom 21:28:49 emacs works great for 3 or 4 single steps then hangs 21:28:50 jyf: 512kb flash memory 21:28:56 cgdb has an unusable interface 21:29:03 gdb -tui has an unusable interface 21:29:21 kdbg looks awesome but also will not debugt JIT code 21:30:57 mayuresh: sounds great 21:31:07 why my bought avr chip are so expensive? 21:31:20 which chips 21:31:28 jyf: you must have got the higher compute power stuff 21:31:32 avr8 series 21:31:54 my form leader used to made a soc by manual for me 21:32:17 which he use a avr8 as the target board and a avr16 as the programmer 21:32:31 both are not cheap like mayuresh's price 21:33:46 btw, i just told my boss about using scripting language in our admob like SDK 21:33:54 she agree with that idea 21:34:04 and now i am consider should i use forth or lua 21:34:17 go forth :) 21:35:28 forth has many good features on this case, for eg, it has small overhead and good performance, and it could confused compiter 21:35:50 :D 21:35:56 but i wonder if i could a guy to work for us if i leave the company 21:36:16 hire one right away 21:36:19 and work as a team 21:36:34 that way there's a fail-safe mechanism in place 21:36:43 yeah, unless both of you leave at the same time 21:36:44 mayuresh: I'm more an STM fanboi. An SSTM32F0* chip is tiny in costs and outperforms the hottest of the AVR chips by an order of magnitude. 21:36:50 or in short period of each other 21:37:36 mayuresh: and there're a success case for forth on mobile platform usage 21:37:40 carrier iq :] 21:37:51 :) 21:38:07 that company collecting data just like us , except the different level 21:38:10 ttmrichter: stm32f0 looks good 21:38:43 while arm asm is not 21:39:03 how much would a 8mhz chip with 512Kb of ram and 512kb of flash cost 21:39:53 more than a dollar 3 years ago in beijing 21:40:30 that's bloody expensive 21:40:40 * ttmrichter laughs. 21:40:56 If you're payin gover a buck for an STM32F0 you're getting ripped off. 21:41:47 An STM32F0 should be under $0.50 (exact price varying by specific models). 21:42:10 that's within acceptable range :) 21:42:30 I'll get you some more precise prices in amoment. 21:42:51 cool 21:43:06 but, your current approximation makes it sound good too 21:43:21 Going with the STM32F030 Value Line... What form factor are you looking at? 21:43:43 Choices are 20p TSSOP, 32, 48 and 64p LQFP. 21:43:56 i want to buy a mips based chip 21:44:16 Hard to find decently-priced MIPS kit. :( 21:44:16 especially the new seris 5 21:44:29 48p lqfp 21:44:29 OK, bad news, mayuresh. 21:44:32 ? 21:44:36 I can't get you an 8MHz part. 21:44:44 you could buy from imagination with a very high price :[ 21:44:47 The F030 line are all 48MHz. 21:44:57 golly, that's a lot of compute power 21:45:04 will also draw a whole lot of battery 21:45:06 mips' market strange is really bad 21:45:17 You can always use a slower clock. :) 21:45:28 I mean put in an 8MHz crystal and don't jack up the multipliers. 21:45:44 48MHz is the maximum clock rate. 21:45:55 okay 21:45:58 OK, next question: 32 or 64KB Flash? 21:46:08 64kb 21:46:42 btw, are those firmware in harddisk are using forth? 21:46:47 That's about $0.70. 21:47:02 that's great for a 48mhz cpu 21:47:06 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 21:47:12 Of course that price goes down as you increase the volume. 21:47:17 yeah 21:47:30 well, laying out my grand plan 21:47:31 http://www.st.com/web/catalog/mmc/FM225/SC1169/SS1574/LN1826/PF258965# 21:47:36 That's the part. 21:47:55 i intend to use a swarm of low powered devices for home automation 21:48:07 that goes against conventional wisdom 21:48:10 I'm checking another, older line. 21:48:15 but, trust me, swarms are a lot more resilient 21:48:30 Suits me fine. 21:48:39 I'm an Erlang programmer. I understand concurrency. ;) 21:48:52 i started off with a beaglebone black running erlang on a custom linux distro 21:48:54 oh you are programmer now 21:49:08 but, the cost per device failure was too high 21:49:09 jyf: I've always been one. 21:49:09 do you maintain your school's website :] 21:49:19 Just not programming for other people to get rich any longer. 21:49:32 I program on my own for my own entertainment and edification. 21:49:35 can anyone tell me of any alternative debugger that i can use on a beagle board xm that is not in any way associated with gdb and is free? 21:49:56 ive used every single front end to gdb and not one of them will work for me 21:50:20 mark4: one of the issues might be that today's gdb uses python heavily 21:50:25 try to use gdb-minimal 21:50:41 under debian, there's a package called "gdb-minimal" 21:51:02 no 21:51:08 gdb is utter fucking fail 21:51:13 :D 21:51:21 as is debian and all its derivatives 21:51:40 i need a debugger that will run ON an arm target that has Z E R O connection with gdb 21:51:44 or any other GNU development tool 21:52:22 Man, using python as an embedded language is utter fucking fail to start with. 21:52:28 Wow. What an idiotic design decision. 21:54:52 mark4: try http://www.zerobugs.org/ 21:55:47 im about as FUCKING PISSED OFF as i have ever been in here 21:55:55 pull bullshit like that and ill do my first ever ban in here 21:56:03 i dont need your fucking wise ass shit 21:56:42 okay, did you try intel's debugger for arm? 21:56:50 or how about 'adb'? 21:57:51 here's something more; http://freecode.com/projects/edebugger 21:58:48 http://ald.sourceforge.net/ 21:59:03 http://www.roguewave.com/products/totalview.aspx (commercial) 21:59:20 ald is not arm its x86 and unmaintained for about 8 years 21:59:36 what about edebugger and totalview? 21:59:54 edb is also NOT arm 22:00:21 if it does not run ON the arm target its useless to me 22:00:35 im not cross debugging. that will NOT be possible here 22:00:51 you cannot execute ARM linux system calls on an X86 machine 22:00:52 then your only option would be gdb-minimal 22:00:59 no 22:01:02 gdb is NOT an option 22:01:24 the only interface gdb has is to puke out disasembly after each single step 22:01:27 not fucking useable 22:03:05 I'll save you the ban button. Frothing admins do not a friendly channel make. 22:03:10 --- part: ttmrichter left #forth 22:03:31 are you on a tight deadline, mark4 ? 22:03:57