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05:48:45 <mayuresh> hello :)
05:49:05 <ttmrichter> Hello.
05:49:18 <mayuresh> i just placed an order for "starting forth", the last copy left with amazon.com
05:49:30 <mayuresh> should get it within a week. :)
05:51:15 <mayuresh> a question; what level of math do i need to get proficient at forth?
05:52:23 <mayuresh> currently working through high-school level math book. :)
05:52:37 <ASau> "High school" in which terms?
05:52:41 <mayuresh> will be proceeding to discreet math for undergrad level before "sf"
05:52:43 <ASau> In U.S.A.'s?
05:52:55 <mayuresh> high-school in india
05:53:12 <mayuresh> basically stuff prior to calculus
05:53:16 <ASau> Is it college or university?
05:53:19 <mayuresh> and not too deep into algebra
05:53:44 <mayuresh> high-school is the period from 6th grade to 10th grade (in india).
05:53:52 <ttmrichter> mayuresh: You don't need a lot of maths to be proficient in Forth.
05:53:59 <ASau> Anyway, you need discreet math and automata.
05:54:16 <mayuresh> asau: automata!! cool, thanks for the tip
05:54:19 <kulp> also, discrete math
05:54:20 <kulp> ;)
05:54:41 <ASau> At least discrete math and automata.
05:54:54 <mayuresh> ttmrichter: i'm apprehensive about whether i can do compiler stuff
05:55:08 <mayuresh> i don't have a background in 'cs', hence no knowledge of assembly
05:55:21 <ASau> You don't need to know assembly.
05:55:37 <mayuresh> thank goodness...
05:55:39 <ASau> It is one particular case of automata.
05:55:53 <mayuresh> ??
05:56:03 <ttmrichter> mayuresh: I wrote my own Forth first when I was in high school myself.
05:56:16 <ASau> Learning how particular operations are encoded doesn't help you much.
05:56:27 <mayuresh> ttmrichter: you must've been a really bright kid.
05:56:33 <ttmrichter> I had no knowledge of automata at all and limited grasp of discrete maths.  I "learned on the job" as it were.
05:56:36 <ttmrichter> No, not really.
05:56:47 <ttmrichter> I had a good book to guide me and access to a teacher who understood the programming bug.
05:57:01 <mayuresh> ttmrichter: cool, then there's hope for me. :)
05:57:16 <mayuresh> ttmrichter: which book did you refer?
05:57:20 <ttmrichter> If you're more prone to exploratory thinking with backfilling of information you've discovered that's a viable approach.
05:57:30 <ttmrichter> An ancient book called "Threaded Interpretive Languages" or some such.
05:57:41 <ttmrichter> Or that may have come later.
05:57:46 <ttmrichter> It's been a looooooooooooooooong time.
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05:58:15 <mayuresh> was it the one by loeiger?
05:58:28 <ttmrichter> Don't recall the author.  Published by Byte Books.
05:58:52 <mayuresh> yes, found it on amazon.com :)
05:59:31 <ttmrichter> Yes.  Loeliger.
06:00:54 <mayuresh> oh, it's z80 assembly centric
06:00:59 <ttmrichter> Well, yeah.
06:01:11 <mayuresh> it must have been a great era :)
06:01:13 <ttmrichter> It was published in '81.
06:01:40 <ttmrichter> I was lucky enough at the time to have a Z80-based machine and access after business hours.  :)
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06:04:12 <mayuresh> so, i guess, i'm well set with "starting forth" to go forth on my journey
06:06:24 <ttmrichter> Yes, Starting Forth is not a bad route to take.
06:06:41 <ttmrichter> Although if you've got the print edition you'll have to use it together with your manual to see how things are done in modern Forths.
06:06:45 <ttmrichter> There are differences.
06:07:29 <mayuresh> yes, i read the same, will be working with the "sf" tutorial by marcel
06:07:44 <mayuresh> or rather, ansi-fied "starting forth" by marcel
06:07:47 <mayuresh> :)
06:10:46 <true-grue> In fact, Forth may help you learn Math. Play with the code, try something. Explore and don't be afraid to do something wrong :)
06:11:01 <mayuresh> sure :)
06:12:57 <ttmrichter> The worst that could happen is that your computer catches fire or molests your cat or something.
06:13:32 <mayuresh> great, i can handle the fire situation, and i don't have  acat :)
06:13:54 <mayuresh> yeah, but my beautiful neighbour has a crazy feline ;)
06:16:49 <mayuresh> though sometimes i do get all fuzzy and confused about who's the real feline ;)
06:20:21 <mayuresh> ah, just found the right book on computer architecture for someone like me
06:20:42 <mayuresh> it's "write great code, volume 1" by randall hyde :)
06:21:01 <mayuresh> looks like i can start off with it before "starting forth"
06:21:28 <mayuresh> searching is definitely an art form, should be transferable
06:23:49 <true-grue> By the way, most of the young game programmers, who wrote in asm for 8-bit home comuters in 80s, were completely self-taught. They had no knowledge about design patterns, type theory, oop or high school math. :)
06:25:30 <ttmrichter> Personally I think the "you must learn all these maths at a minimum" is an opinion that damages the field.
06:25:41 <ttmrichter> Do you need maths to master the trade?  Hell, yes.
06:25:56 <ttmrichter> Do you need maths to start and get the "programming bug"?  Fuck, no.
06:27:14 <ttmrichter> Imagine being told that to be a musician you must first study music notation, then music theory, then composition theory before you're even allowed to LISTEN to actual music, not to mention actually pick up an instrument and play (or open your mouth and sing).
06:27:19 <ttmrichter> That's how maths are taught.
06:27:28 <ttmrichter> And that's how the maths-focused CS types are taught.
06:28:34 <true-grue> Some of them now are "heroes" in today's programmers subculture. Now let's take a modern Java enterprise developer, for example. His mind is full of dogma and his work is dull :)
06:29:05 <mayuresh> :)
06:30:48 <true-grue> There is a good book about learning process and computers: http://www.amazon.com/Mindstorms-Children-Computers-Powerful-Ideas/dp/0465046746
06:31:00 <mayuresh> :)
06:31:05 <mayuresh> cool
06:34:14 <ttmrichter> I've had success teaching programming to young teens (13-15) using Prolog.
06:34:24 <ASau> Those programmers of the past have at least some excuse for writing software that worked occasionally.
06:34:57 <ASau> Doing the same these days is akin to reinventing square wheels.
06:37:47 <ASau> I've seen a project (worked in it for some time)
06:38:23 <ASau> when such self-taught "great" programmers invented a restricted implementation of CPS.
06:38:46 <mayuresh> what is 'cps'?
06:39:15 <ASau> This implementation supported only fixed number of linear paths of continuations.
06:39:50 <ASau> Of course, at some point the need has arisen to have branches in the middle.
06:40:23 <ttmrichter> mayuresh: Continuation Passing Style.
06:40:24 <ASau> But since the framework didn't support them, we had a trouble of cramming these branches inside.
06:40:29 <ttmrichter> Don't bother with that now.
06:40:35 <mayuresh> okay
06:41:08 <ASau> Note that this technology is well-known today and full-blown frameworks exist that support the general case.
06:41:19 <ASau> Or at least sufficiently general one.
06:45:00 <mayuresh> :)
06:45:27 <mayuresh> :D
06:45:39 <ASau> With at least minimal knowledge of CPS working on the project would be much easier.
06:46:12 <mayuresh> asau: you must be right, but, as a newbie, i can't understand a word of what you just said
06:46:39 <mayuresh> asau: that would also be the case with all those non-cs types aspiring to become programmers.
06:46:58 <ASau> I don't have CS background.
06:47:21 <mayuresh> asau: you must have a huge amount of experience then :)
06:47:37 <ASau> But I worked as research assistant, this helps.
06:49:35 <ASau> You don't believe how large is the extent when a week of reading can reduce the amount of drudge work.
06:59:06 <mayuresh> alrighty, gotta go now, thanks to ttmrichter for guiding my positively, asau for helping me understand how little i know. :)
06:59:21 <mayuresh> see you all later...
06:59:22 <ttmrichter> Sleep well, mayuresh.
06:59:30 * ttmrichter will be sleeping soon himself.
06:59:40 <mayuresh> :)
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09:54:04 <mnemnion> is there some easy way for me to put the value of a printable ascii char on the stack? like 'foo r emit' would print r? 
09:54:50 <tangentstorm> hrm
09:55:53 <mnemnion> I can just hang out with the ASCII table, they're going into definitions. Curiousity.
09:56:22 <tangentstorm> http://forth.sourceforge.net/std/dpans/dpans6.htm#6.1.0895 ?
09:57:27 <tangentstorm> so  'char r emit' ... looks like it works in gforth
09:58:46 <mnemnion> that makes perfect sense
09:58:52 <mnemnion> cheers ^_^
09:59:06 <tangentstorm> :)
09:59:07 <mnemnion> so that's [char] in a definition
09:59:29 <tangentstorm> looks like it
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11:58:54 <ecraven> has anyone here tried AmForth on a Teensy/
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12:06:53 <tangentstorm> not me :(
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15:29:25 <BlueSmoke999> hello world
15:30:09 <BlueSmoke999> i just found forth
15:31:18 <kumul> SO DID I!
15:31:43 <BlueSmoke999> how did you find it?
15:31:57 <kumul> no wait. I've been using it for a year... darnit
15:32:28 <kumul> BlueSmoke999, i was looking into learning assembly and someone suggested it was like that
15:33:01 <kumul> starting forth can be read by a 3rd grader as well. and thats like my mental age, so it was perfect
15:33:33 <BlueSmoke999> i was reffered to a page that discussed it 
15:34:00 <BlueSmoke999> the writer has worked with forth long time and told some insidr secrets of softwaRE
15:34:12 <BlueSmoke999> i will try to find link
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15:36:37 <BlueSmoke999> cant find it
15:37:54 <BlueSmoke999> so you use it now ?
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15:39:04 <BlueSmoke999> zzzzzz ?
15:39:24 <kumool> changing routers
15:39:29 <kumool> did you say something?
15:39:50 <BlueSmoke999> i was looking for original link 
15:39:57 <BlueSmoke999> but not sure where i put it
15:40:11 <mayuresh> gah, "starting forth" last copy with amazon.com not shippable to india. :(
15:40:47 <BlueSmoke999> but in brief - old time programmer states - software today is bloated - runs slow on fast machines
15:41:07 <mayuresh> good thing about amazon cancelling my order before charging me for it. :)
15:41:20 <BlueSmoke999> and it is intentionally designed that way via business philosphy not real computational effiiciency
15:41:36 <kumool> BlueSmoke999, is that http://suckless.org ?
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15:41:58 <kumool> thats basically everyone
15:42:04 <mayuresh> bluesmoke999: i agree with you on the business philosophy messing up software performance part
15:42:18 <kumool> but forth doesnt particularly solve that problem. its not this magic bullet
15:42:39 <BlueSmoke999> i tried learning C , C++ , java to talk to hardware , serial port communications to oofboard projects 
15:42:48 <BlueSmoke999> but so many layers of crap crap
15:43:11 <BlueSmoke999> but then i found PYTHON what a dream 
15:43:28 <BlueSmoke999> 30 minutes and i accessed serial port
15:43:43 <BlueSmoke999> 4 days i had a basic GUI interface
15:43:48 <mayuresh> bluesmoke999: python!!! you think it's a dream come true language for low level stuff?
15:44:03 <mayuresh> yeah, i've heard of pymite, but well.... ;)
15:44:20 <BlueSmoke999> i use python to makie a hui to talk to a embedded controller - send commands
15:44:31 <BlueSmoke999> to use a gui interface
15:45:04 <mayuresh> hah, you could do better with VB :P
15:45:06 <BlueSmoke999> python is not to do assembly - its to get access to the layers already there in a easy fast way
15:45:45 <BlueSmoke999> gui control panel to talk to offboard hardware
15:46:06 <mayuresh> yeah, i know someone who wrote stuff for ibutton using vb.net
15:46:08 <BlueSmoke999> python is open source - cross platform 
15:46:29 <BlueSmoke999> im already talking to my chips easy
15:46:45 <mayuresh> wouldn't mono fit your bill easily?
15:46:48 <BlueSmoke999> i dont need bloat and hidden code and payware
15:46:50 <mayuresh> just kidding :)
15:47:18 <mayuresh> btw, don't get it, why are we discussing anything other than forth on this channel!
15:47:25 <mayuresh> :D
15:47:28 <BlueSmoke999> im looking into what forth can do
15:47:55 <BlueSmoke999> because many ideas come from multiple disciplines
15:48:01 <mayuresh> yeah, agree
15:48:24 <BlueSmoke999> if you want a restricted - inbred view of code go to #OSDEV they are idiots
15:48:48 <BlueSmoke999> if you want open discussion of everything tech go to ##electronics
15:49:04 <BlueSmoke999> they talk pussy to embedded controllers to make beer
15:49:25 <mayuresh> that's exactly why i asked, why discuss anything other than forth on this channel? :)
15:49:26 <BlueSmoke999> most in there know 3 or 4 programming languages - build hardware 
15:50:00 <mayuresh> does knowing 3 or 4 languages make you better at low level stuff than someone who knows assembly well?
15:50:13 <BlueSmoke999> because if you only say forth forth forth - you only see that - like watching 1 ant
15:50:58 <BlueSmoke999> if you can build a FPGA system you know hardware - and yes assembly and yes forth is in there somewhere
15:51:22 <BlueSmoke999> forth is about - small fast effiecient code and hardware
15:51:32 <mayuresh> you're mistaken
15:51:38 <BlueSmoke999> nope
15:52:18 <BlueSmoke999> i will take my idea over what forth is from the co-inventor of forth over some dude in a irc room
15:52:29 <mayuresh> forth is all about having a great interface between a human and his hardware :)
15:53:16 <mayuresh> maybe even "her" hardware :)
15:54:14 <BlueSmoke999> pick a language you like and most of them allow hardware access -  its like saying vanilla icecream is best
15:54:25 <BlueSmoke999> pick your favorite and then procedd
15:54:30 <BlueSmoke999> proceed
15:55:01 <mayuresh> as i'd said, "a great interface" between a human and his/her hardware
15:55:18 <BlueSmoke999> whats your favorite language
15:55:46 <mayuresh> none, i've got no favourites at the moment
15:56:02 <mayuresh> i use that which is necessary for a particular task at hand at that moment
15:56:15 <BlueSmoke999> what language allows you access to everything you want , easily
15:56:39 <mayuresh> yeah, i'm just moving into deep rooted embedded systems
15:57:08 <mayuresh> i need a good way to interface with my hardware, hence forth :)
15:57:30 <BlueSmoke999> i think knowing the mative assembler to the controller will always be fastest performance
15:57:35 <BlueSmoke999> native
15:58:02 <BlueSmoke999> but the human interface to chip is the main concern of course
15:58:10 <mayuresh> yesh
15:58:24 <mayuresh> there has to be a trade off, and forth is a great one
15:58:38 <mayuresh> frankly, doing high level languages has messed me up big time
15:58:50 <mayuresh> forth is *very* exciting :)
15:59:05 <BlueSmoke999> think of high level as a handle to access the lower level
15:59:21 <mayuresh> i get to learn about machines better when i started investigating forth
16:00:00 <BlueSmoke999> yes forth even has discussions on multiprocessor communication and parallel proccessing schemes
16:00:12 <mayuresh> high level stuff is where unnecessary compromises happen in the name of easy to use
16:00:21 <mayuresh> take the case of python ;)
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16:01:01 <BlueSmoke999> i use high level to make a gui button easy to talk to lower hardware ( embedded controller ) easy 
16:01:21 <mayuresh> you should learn forth
16:01:42 <mayuresh> it lets you do magical things like efficient 'gui' stuff
16:01:44 <BlueSmoke999> i will eventually - it has good ideas to speed up computation
16:02:15 <BlueSmoke999> how do you make a gui control panel in forth?
16:02:22 <mayuresh> do search for "jef raskin cannon cat" on google
16:03:10 <mayuresh> the entire system software, including the 'gui' was written in forth by a single programmer
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16:05:38 <BlueSmoke999> im looking
16:07:03 <BlueSmoke999> what embedded controller are you using?
16:07:20 <mayuresh> atmel avr atmega169pv
16:08:26 <BlueSmoke999> why you pick this version
16:08:37 <mayuresh> it's good enough for me
16:08:49 <BlueSmoke999> im looking at specs
16:08:59 <mayuresh> plus, it came in a nice package! ;)
16:11:10 <BlueSmoke999> surface mount on a board?
16:11:19 <mayuresh> :)
16:11:42 <mayuresh> just do a search for "atmel avr butterfly" on google and you'll understand why.
16:15:35 <BlueSmoke999> http://bluesmoke999.imgur.com
16:15:49 <BlueSmoke999> thats version 1 im doing version 2 now
16:16:36 <mayuresh> :)
16:16:59 <BlueSmoke999> butterfly mp3 player project at wikipedia
16:17:18 <BlueSmoke999> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVR_Butterfly
16:18:16 <BlueSmoke999> you can speed butterfly clock via software
16:18:44 <mayuresh> it's actually 8mhz, just clocked down to 2mhz to conserve battery usage
16:19:17 <BlueSmoke999> i use external power pack to a 7805  , LM317
16:19:31 <BlueSmoke999> for +5v  and +3.3v
16:20:02 <mayuresh> i use http://www.ecrostech.com/AtmelAvr/Butterfly/index.htm
16:20:49 <BlueSmoke999> can be a good data logger for a solar power setup
16:21:23 <mayuresh> you are only restricted by your imagination :)
16:22:04 <BlueSmoke999> my imagination - has no restrictions
16:23:36 <mayuresh> good, then you can work wonders
16:23:57 <mayuresh> alrighty, i gotta go now, have fun going forth... :)
16:24:03 <BlueSmoke999> ok
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22:54:32 <MalcolmX86> I just wanted to point out this forth that's written in java . http://www.mistybeach.com/products/Forth/
22:55:36 <MalcolmX86> It is kind of an odd idea , forth written in java , but if you click on the button at the bottom , an applet pops up .
23:00:47 <ttmrichter> Look up Mako as well MalcolmX86.
23:01:02 <ttmrichter> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako
23:01:38 <MalcolmX86> I did buy one of those GA144 chips and it was sent in the regular mail but now I have to figure out how to solder it to the board . It seems a long way away from being able to use forth on it .
23:02:03 <MalcolmX86> Mako , eh?
23:02:06 <ttmrichter> MalcolmX86: Hit the schmartboards site for a board that can easily mount it.
23:03:08 <noneofmynickswor> i havent seen him in a while. is he still in the channel?
23:03:21 <ttmrichter> Who?
23:03:25 <ttmrichter> MalcolmX86?
23:03:27 <noneofmynickswor> ttmrichter, rodger?
23:03:31 <ttmrichter> Ah.
23:03:40 <ttmrichter> He's been around, but it's been a couple of weeks.
23:04:11 <noneofmynickswor> ah, good to know
23:05:09 <MalcolmX86> The GA144 came with a schmartboard http://picpaste.com/GA144-2013-11-09-175558-Uzfple46.jpg
23:05:39 <ttmrichter> MalcolmX86: Ah, you got it FROM Schmartboards.
23:05:42 <noneofmynickswor> goodness its 3am, thanks ttm
23:05:46 --- quit: noneofmynickswor (Quit: holy shit its 3am!)
23:05:57 <ttmrichter> Should have no problem soldering it then.  :D
23:07:00 <MalcolmX86> It's 0.4 mm pitch so I need an even smaller soldering iron .
23:08:09 <MalcolmX86> I have gotten a couple of free samples somewhere from schmartboard to practice 
23:08:46 <MalcolmX86> but have to find where I put them and the iron .
23:11:14 <ttmrichter> Personally I think the schmartboards are a tad pricey..
23:11:25 <ttmrichter> I'm tempted to buy one just so I can get them cloned at 20% of the price.  :)
23:13:30 <MalcolmX86> It was $20 with the board but only in September is it on sale .
23:16:51 <MalcolmX86> So Mako makes it possible  to run forth programs in a java applet ?  
23:18:09 <MalcolmX86> I am still looking at it .
23:21:26 <ttmrichter> A Forth-like if you think Forth has to be ANSI compliant.
23:21:55 <MalcolmX86> MakoForth Reference Guide --> https://github.com/JohnEarnest/Mako/tree/master/demos/Forth
23:32:38 <MalcolmX86> Forth really is quite versatile and diverse . Here is a 3 instruction forth--> http://utoh.org/3ins4th.html
23:34:00 <MalcolmX86> It is getting late up here in Canada . I have to batten down the igloo ...
23:34:20 <ttmrichter> Hey, stop dissing Canuckistan!
23:34:45 * ttmrichter ← Canuckistani in exile
23:35:28 <MalcolmX86> good night !
23:35:38 --- quit: MalcolmX86 (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 25.0/20131029002107])
23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.11.10