00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.11.08 00:19:02 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 00:38:30 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 00:39:26 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 00:44:33 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 00:50:01 --- quit: impomatic (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk) 00:57:31 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 01:50:59 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 02:43:38 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:44:57 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 03:36:29 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 03:51:46 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 04:04:53 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 04:36:07 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:02:34 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 05:42:53 --- quit: bjorkintosh (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 05:52:21 --- join: bjorkintosh (~bjork@ip68-13-229-200.ok.ok.cox.net) joined #forth 05:56:31 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 06:02:35 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@ANice-552-1-235-245.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 07:26:39 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-173-228-252-249.prtc.net) joined #forth 07:28:14 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 07:33:36 --- quit: Azel (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 08:23:11 --- join: ErhardtMundt (~ErhardtMu@host28-87-dynamic.9-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) joined #forth 08:54:01 --- join: Azel (~Thunderbi@ANice-552-1-235-245.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr) joined #forth 09:00:10 --- quit: Azel (Quit: Azel) 09:08:21 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 09:13:00 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 09:14:21 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 09:28:44 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 09:46:56 --- join: kumool (~mool@adsl-64-237-225-243.prtc.net) joined #forth 09:49:42 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 09:57:04 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 10:12:28 is there an ANS Forth implementation with a BSD or MIT type license? Public domain would also suit 10:13:15 I didn't see one on Wikipedia but it seemed worth asking. 10:13:34 http://www.softsynth.com/pforth/ ? 10:14:19 oh wow thanks true-grue! I don't know how I missed that. 10:14:25 I think I confused it with pfe 10:14:44 pforth is not ANS. 10:17:23 --- join: mayuresh (~mayuresh@triband-mum-120.60.164.199.mtnl.net.in) joined #forth 10:17:40 It even built! Which I can't say about pfe in my environment, sadly. Thanks again. 10:17:53 hello :) 10:18:00 --- join: Zorko (~zorko@95.81.60.138) joined #forth 10:18:16 hi mnemnion, hope you've been going forth... ;) 10:18:37 It is. See coretest.fth. 10:18:48 I have! I'll probably have some code to share here by, say, next week 10:19:06 true-grue: it is what? 10:19:21 No, it isn't. 10:19:25 See the Standard. 10:19:46 mnemnion: ANS compilant. 10:19:50 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 10:19:55 anyone awake? 10:20:08 mark4: looks like i am. ;) 10:20:14 yay lol 10:20:22 :D 10:20:25 got a beagle board xm, porting isforth to arm :P~ 10:20:34 but im making it native threaded not direct 10:20:45 mark4: hey, that's cool 10:22:00 she is alredy compiling a bunch of my existing extensions but the fsave is broken, shouldnt take too long to fix that, i know where the problem is :) 10:22:21 im srsly supprised at how FEW arm forths there are out there 10:22:28 free ones i mean 10:22:55 mark4: do you mean to say, isforth would run on the bare metal of a beagle? 10:23:00 just that riscy one which i srsly wasnt impressed with 10:23:05 ooh it could 10:23:11 i could make isforth the mlo 10:23:12 ASau: So you're upset that there is no ENVIRONMENT? word in pForth, or what? :) 10:23:30 mark4: that would be really awesome. 10:23:41 but then i would need to write all the drivers for the devices on the chip - doable but a very long term project :) 10:23:50 true-grue: no, I'm not upset of that. 10:23:51 the tech ref manual for that chip is over 3000 pages lol 10:24:02 :D 10:24:10 for now tho she is running as a linux executable on the bbxm 10:24:21 true-grue: but there're multiple things that make pForth non-compliant. 10:24:35 and compliance is important ! amirite? 10:24:45 mark4: on top of linux! then why not go for gforth? 10:24:55 because gforth is not forth 10:25:03 Pf. 10:25:13 mark4: ?? may i know why gforth is not forth? 10:25:14 Here we start it again. 10:25:14 gforth is a horrendously over complicated C application that emulates a forth 10:25:16 badly 10:25:22 okay 10:25:33 any forth that is not capable of compiling the sources to its own kernel is not forth 10:25:38 mayuresh: mark4 is of opinion that his toy is the only Forth around. 10:25:43 by that measure isforth is not a real forth yet 10:26:15 asau: would gforth be considered good enough to learn forth with? 10:26:33 mayuresh: yes, it is the best thing so far. 10:26:37 mark4: you've really scared the shit out of me... :) 10:26:43 mayuresh, isforth is my x86 linux forth compiler 10:26:47 im porting it to arm 10:27:00 What is more important is that you can really learn something from there. 10:27:06 ASau: pForth was written by competent enough programmer how has a quite big practical experience of working in Forth. For me it's more important than some possible ANS-related issues :) 10:27:17 mayuresh, if you are a forth beginner i would highly recommend isforth because the sources are more readable than pretty much any other linux forth 10:27:37 but isforth is not and never will be "ans compliant" 10:27:56 --- quit: jevin (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com) 10:28:01 true-grue: ever tried using pForth for something more complex than student lab? 10:28:36 It is true that it might be good enough for late eighties. 10:29:20 asau instead of bad mouthing every forth out there because they are not good enough for you how about you go write one that IS good enough for you 10:29:31 you being the worlds greatest forth coder n all 10:30:14 mark4, asau: sorry if i've caused a rift amongst you. 10:30:25 no it was already there :) 10:30:39 and im not hatin on asau, i know he is a competent coder 10:30:44 ok :) 10:30:45 And what is the point in yet another Forth? 10:31:05 asau one that would make you happy. the only forth that would make you happy would be one YOU created 10:31:59 umnn, okay, a slightly off-topic question. 10:32:09 while i would not encourage asau to leave #forth i question why he wants to be here with all his negativity against the language 10:32:24 is there any graphical image i could use to print on a t-shirt? 10:32:29 mayuresh, this channel is not anal retentive about chat topics 10:32:31 --- join: Zarutian (~zarutian@194-144-84-110.du.xdsl.is) joined #forth 10:32:51 do you have a printer that can print on a t-shirt? 10:32:54 So, your point is that you build your own Forth to get psychological bond to it. :) 10:33:01 This is funny approach. 10:33:16 asau i make it to fit my needs and my coding style 10:33:19 mark4: there's a shop which does do printing on t-shirts and other stuff 10:33:43 ASau: Well, If I'll need a C-based Forth I'll write my own and I see no point in making it as ANS-compatible :) And you're right, I have good feelings to pForth due to some of 80s projects, like HMSL. 10:33:47 mayuresh, so your looking for a forth related thing to print on a t-shirt or something else? 10:34:08 true-grue, you prefer the 83 std to ans? 10:34:14 mark4: yes, a nice logo or something! 10:34:28 i checked out the one on forth.org 10:34:39 when i started this channel i always set the channel limit to 83 people... i.e. limit the channel to the 83 standard (jokingly only :) 10:34:58 while very nice, don't think it would come off well on a black/blue t-shirt 10:35:02 well you could print "go forth + *" 10:35:08 :) 10:35:32 or you could print the DVD decryption code ported to forth :) 10:35:41 true-grue: have you ever seen that HMSL in action? 10:36:51 mark4: I see no point in having of the standard for now. There is no good enough reference implementation. There is no code reuse. 10:37:21 gforth is the reference implementation, basically. 10:37:34 ASau: Yes. I'm big fan of algorithmic music composition :) 10:37:58 In addition to that you have WinForth or whatever it is called now. 10:38:16 win32 forth? 10:38:54 true-grue, HMSL was a mod player written in forth or something? 10:38:58 a mod editor? 10:39:14 true-grue: so, do you use it still? 10:39:47 thanks for the tips, gotta hit bed now, it's almost 12, and day begins early tomorrow. :) 10:39:59 mayuresh, where are you located? 10:40:09 mark4: mumbai, india 10:40:11 ASau: Well, gforth is a reference on bad Forth style :) 10:40:18 cool. check out www.isforth.com :)))) 10:40:26 if you run x86 linux that is 10:41:03 mark4: will give it a shot tomorrow, am on x86-64 running ubuntu 10:41:24 cool. you might have some small problems with it because i refuse to fix bugs in debian inside my forth 10:41:32 come see me if it wont run for you, the fix is trivial 10:41:43 sure :) 10:41:54 bye. 10:42:02 ASau: It's complex, ugly, slow. It has all drawbacks related to Forth (and his own too) and no of Forth good points. I better will use Python or Lua instead :) 10:42:07 --- quit: mayuresh (Quit: "off to sleep") 10:42:46 gforth slow? 10:42:47 true-grue, gforth is bloatware 10:42:48 Ha! 10:43:00 mark4: http://www.softsynth.com/hmsl/hmsl_details.html 10:43:03 gforth is EVERTHING forth is not 10:43:18 Gforth is one of the best example of Forth style you can find around. 10:43:28 cool 10:44:01 sure if you want something thats totally unreadable and 28456924 times bigger than it needs to be 10:44:04 gforth is fine! 10:44:18 other than its ans forth which is not forth 10:45:02 What is more important is that they are trying to address real problems rather than write ad hoc code in the style of early eighties. 10:45:47 if it aint broke dont fix it 10:46:18 all this new fangled modern coding methods has done nothing but bloat and complicate the issue 10:46:21 and the results 10:46:32 Oh, right. 10:46:50 and convince 50 billion skript kiddiez that they are ubber leet coderz 10:46:58 When your input doesn't fit fixed buffer, you gotta raise the limit and rebuild your program. 10:47:05 "learn C in 24 hours" yay now im a software engineer 10:47:25 or limit the input 10:47:48 Yeah, this is it. 10:48:24 Instead of facing reality like a man you propose to make it fit capabilities of your program. 10:48:44 this channel sure has alot of ppl in it these days and im unfamiliar with most of them. i dont think ive seen most of them even talk 10:48:50 bots? 10:50:14 ASau: Well there is nothing wrong with 80s style of coding. The style still works for tiny MCU, you know. For solving desktop problems even with gforth you'll have no advantages over C. 10:50:24 --- join: jevin (~jevin@72.12.217.220) joined #forth 10:51:55 codeers should always follow the "kiss" principal 10:51:59 And this approach casts doubts on whether Forth is a really good choice for programming at all. :) 10:52:04 gforth is as far from simple as you can get 10:52:28 Lambda calculus is simpler than Forth while being more powerful. :) 10:52:35 i wonder if it was asau who wrote that "i hate forth" thing 10:53:06 Lambda calculus is not simpler than theory of stack combinators :) 10:56:08 How many stack combinators do you need and which of them are present in Forth? 10:56:27 err 10:56:41 if it does not exist in forth all you have to do is CREATE IT 10:56:43 duh 10:57:21 Then try to create it. ;) 10:57:40 i have no need of it. you create it.. oh i forgot you hate forth 10:57:48 ASau: See JOY language :) 10:58:02 I have seen it. 10:59:02 It has a lot of things to get straightened up to get closer to Krivine machine 10:59:48 or SECD so that it could be comparable to something like Scheme with postfix syntax. 11:03:21 SECD? So old. It's more like CAM if you want a mainstream analogy. 11:03:56 Make it CAM, if you prefer that. :) 11:04:14 Functional stack language is great for tacit programming and as IL for functional languages. 11:06:30 Try implementing any of it in Forth. ;) 11:07:09 You can even reuse works on ZINC. 11:10:39 Sometime ago I even wrote an article about functional style implementation in Forth. 11:11:52 Did you get further than what is possible with C? 11:12:48 mark4: re many people you havent seen before: well, I sometimes idle here to catch interesting discussions 11:13:22 * Zarutian likes Forth for how close to the hardware it can be. 11:15:50 ASau: He-he. It all was started with this code, in 1997, if I remember correctly: 11:15:51 : LAMBDA{ POSTPONE AHEAD HERE ; IMMEDIATE 11:15:51 : } >R POSTPONE EXIT POSTPONE THEN R> POSTPONE LITERAL ; IMMEDIATE 11:19:11 hi Zarutian :P 11:19:51 true-grue, ugh i HATE all that postpone x postpone y postpone z ; immediate bullshit 11:19:54 true-grue: all this is capable of is implementation of local functions. 11:20:10 horrendously good example of how horrendously BAD ans forth is 11:20:30 in isforth that would be 11:20:50 m: lambda{ ahead here ;m 11:20:51 Right, let us push buggy "[compile]" approach once again. :) 11:21:21 tc etc 11:21:37 funny. compile and [compile] are actuallh in the ans standard 11:21:45 but postpone is NOT last i looked 11:23:37 "compile" isn't and "[compile]" is there for compatibility, 11:23:44 it isn't in the core set. 11:23:50 hmm i could make [compile] an immediate word that called ([compile]) and then set a flag to make the next word appear non immediate even if it was immediate 11:24:04 then [compile] would be as over complicated as postpone! 11:24:37 "[compile]" is buggy in the first place. 11:24:43 sure 11:25:32 While "postpone" does the correct thing. 11:25:55 So far nobody presented another approach that achieves the same with less complexity. 11:26:09 i think i just did 11:26:20 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-31-185-43.oxfd.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 11:26:31 sort of 11:26:38 By modifying "[compile]" to get the same semantics? 11:26:53 --- part: w0rm_x left #forth 11:26:57 call the new word postpone if you prefer 11:27:01 except 11:27:10 [compile] and compile are two separate words 11:27:14 Or by placing bug as in "m: lambda{ ahead here ;m"? 11:27:18 postpone does the job of both of them 11:27:19 ASau: How about evaluate? 11:27:41 i dont support evaluate either. in fact i think its as bad as all that postpone crap 11:27:57 " lots of forth coder here " evaluate 11:28:07 HORRIBLE 11:28:07 true-grue: it is well-known for a long time that using eval not to implement REPL is a bug. 11:29:26 asau which is why soooo many ans forth "gurus" use "x y z" evaluate all the freeking time 11:29:41 How many of them? 11:30:06 Or do you call all those "learn Forth in 24 hours" people "gurus"? 11:30:18 there is no learn forth in 24 hours 11:30:38 thers "learn more about forth in 24 hours than you will learn of c in 24 years" though 11:30:49 Call it "learn Forth in 24 weeks". 11:30:58 Or years, whatever. 11:39:32 By using evaluate I meant something like: 11:39:37 : m" postpone s" postpone evaluate ; immediate 11:39:54 and then : foo ... m" exit then" ... ; immediate 11:41:24 If I redefined "exit" to mean something different and it happened to come above "forth" temporarily, then the wrong definition is used without any notification. 11:42:01 This works only if you write small programs or otherwise limit yourself. 11:42:38 It's old debate about text-subst. vs syntactic macros. 11:43:21 Of course I'm writing only small programs in Forth :) 11:45:31 Yes, it is all debate, and it is already settled debate. 11:46:24 "Eval" and dynamic scoping have lost. 11:50:00 Not in Forth. On the smaller scale these dangerous things (like "r> drop" etc) are controllable enough :) 11:52:06 Forth program should be more like in APL/J/K one. I.e. one small page of project code which you can read all day :) 11:52:07 In Forth it isn't settled because Forth is laggard. 11:52:41 Yes, if you write totally incomprehensible code. 11:54:20 Besides, to write anything in style of APL you have to implement a lot of support code. 11:56:46 This is somewhat equivalent to assertions like "I can create Lua bindings to and write cool in one page of text." 12:16:45 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@bb-216-195-185-231.gwi.net) joined #forth 12:17:32 --- quit: dys (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 12:24:35 --- join: dys (~user@2a01:1e8:e100:8296:21a:4dff:fe4e:273a) joined #forth 12:39:36 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 12:39:59 i always wanted to learn forth 12:40:00 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 12:44:11 forth is awesome. 12:45:22 it hurts my brain 12:45:34 also there are so many kinds of it 12:47:55 i don't even know what or where to learn it 13:05:34 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 13:05:57 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 13:13:19 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 13:14:57 --- quit: asie (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...) 13:22:38 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 13:28:15 --- join: Raystm2 (Raystm2@c-24-8-230-54.hsd1.co.comcast.net) joined #forth 13:43:04 --- quit: kludge` (Quit: leaving) 14:06:47 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 14:18:16 asie forth has an initial brain mangling mode that once you get over it you see that it is WAY simpler 14:18:19 trivial even 14:18:46 the brain hurt is temporary if you apply 14:18:59 i would STRONGLY advise AGAINST learning via gforth 14:19:05 way way WAY too complificated 14:19:36 not sure i've ever seen asie /me searches 14:19:44 you ahven't 14:19:50 mark4: what do you recommend? 14:19:55 an old, emulated forth implementation? 14:20:09 asie well i wrote isforth specifically for people like you 14:20:17 but there are others out there i would recommend first 14:20:19 oh gosh embarassment. :) thought asie was a kind of forth hehe please excuse. 14:20:34 like do you want to learn on a PC or on some embedded target? 14:20:36 mark4: is there source code out 14:20:48 otherwise i can't run it on my platform 14:20:50 asie its fully released at www.isforth.com 14:21:01 there are no OS X builds 14:21:03 if your platform is x86 linux it will work for you 14:21:07 no 14:21:12 there are OSX forths tho 14:21:12 inb4 "why would you even use that" 14:21:29 no osx haters here 14:22:04 good 14:22:13 they annoy me, i believe the choice of an operating system should be up to the user 14:22:20 i still think windows, linux and osx are all horrid 14:22:35 os x is just the only commercially supported unix that has hardware compat and doesn't have a lot of issues 14:22:45 where unix is used very loosely 14:23:51 i want to get into osdev 14:23:59 but x86 is an ugly mess and ARM is an ugly NDA 14:24:07 hmm your on an x86 yes? 14:24:09 yes 14:24:24 you could probably port isforth to osx 14:24:35 tho it would mean knowing ALL of its system calls 14:24:43 system call usage is not really recommended 14:24:49 darwin is a UNIX on the outside 14:24:59 things like using /dev are not recommended because the code for them is not well maintained 14:25:05 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 14:25:07 anyway, afk 14:25:08 --- quit: asie (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...) 14:44:22 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 14:44:35 back 14:44:45 so i want to learn more about forth 14:44:59 as i've been looking for a programming language i like for ages 14:59:51 --- quit: mark4 (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 15:00:27 --- part: Raystm2 left #forth 15:02:00 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 15:24:15 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 15:26:02 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 15:31:57 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 15:59:20 --- quit: asie (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz...) 16:00:08 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-31-185-43.oxfd.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 16:01:11 --- part: w0rm_x left #forth 17:12:17 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.217.62) joined #forth 17:46:40 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 17:47:13 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> nisstyre 18:24:26 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFFE23.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 18:27:25 --- quit: mnemnion (Remote host closed the connection) 18:27:41 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 18:28:07 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:32:29 --- quit: mnemnion (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 18:38:05 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 20:02:06 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 20:05:41 --- join: beretta (~beretta@74.135.121.153) joined #forth 20:06:21 --- quit: nisstyre (Remote host closed the connection) 20:34:35 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 21:11:07 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-86-31-185-43.oxfd.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 21:13:39 --- part: w0rm_x left #forth 21:22:33 --- join: ttmrichter_ (~ttmrichte@192.241.205.8) joined #forth 21:23:02 --- quit: ttmrichter (Excess Flood) 21:24:36 --- join: mnemnion (~mnemnion@c-98-210-219-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 22:15:42 --- quit: kumool (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 22:22:22 --- quit: Zarutian (Quit: Zarutian) 22:33:06 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 22:33:13 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-25-35-187.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:03:00 --- quit: Zorko (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 23:26:48 --- quit: beretta (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 23:56:27 --- join: asie (~textual@178235038113.elblag.vectranet.pl) joined #forth 23:58:15 hi'm back 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.11.08