00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.11.01 00:20:30 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-26-56-146.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 01:35:58 --- quit: tangentstorm (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 01:36:55 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 01:37:27 --- join: ttmrichter_ (~ttmrichte@221.234.41.75) joined #forth 01:37:46 --- quit: ttmrichter (Disconnected by services) 01:37:48 --- nick: ttmrichter_ -> ttmrichter 01:56:35 --- join: nighty-_ (~nighty@static-68-179-124-161.ptr.terago.net) joined #forth 02:00:21 --- join: Anarch_ (~olaf@c-67-183-64-49.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) joined #forth 02:02:37 --- join: dzho_ (~deejoe@quercus.etrumeus.com) joined #forth 02:04:40 --- quit: Anarch (*.net *.split) 02:04:40 --- quit: dzho (*.net *.split) 02:04:40 --- quit: nighty- (*.net *.split) 02:12:44 --- nick: Anarch_ -> Anarch 02:15:54 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 02:32:17 --- join: ttmrichter_ (~ttmrichte@58.51.149.218) joined #forth 02:32:43 --- quit: ttmrichter (Disconnected by services) 02:32:45 --- nick: ttmrichter_ -> ttmrichter 02:52:31 --- quit: kludge` (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 02:56:54 --- join: kludge` (~comet@unaffiliated/espiral) joined #forth 04:38:31 --- join: ttmrichter_ (~ttmrichte@14.18.250.171) joined #forth 04:41:04 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 04:53:13 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 05:00:02 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 05:28:10 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@128-72-37-159.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 05:37:07 --- nick: ttmrichter_ -> ttmrichter 05:43:27 --- join: Chillectual (~RJones@WatchGuard.ellsworth-hs.ellsworth.k12.me.us) joined #forth 05:46:27 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:51:03 --- quit: nisstyre (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:11:47 --- join: nisstyre (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 07:26:01 nice discussion above. 07:26:04 --- nick: dzho_ -> dzho 07:26:20 there is a movement afoot to dial back on bashisms in linux distros. 07:26:31 maybe that's not what you mean though. 07:26:57 is it bash, or is it Unix shell in general that is a "I don't like it but you have to learn it" thing? 07:27:13 eg, the Debian almquist shell (dash) 07:27:38 I tend to think of Java as the language no one likes but everyone has to learn, these days. 07:31:39 no, that is C++; or maybe you mean Python 07:32:03 well, no. I mean Java. perhaps you disagree. Which, you know, is OK. 07:32:14 in which case, you can just say so. 07:32:44 tangentstorm: as for languages one sees prominently discussed, I've had this idea about perl, too. 07:33:44 that was tongue-in-cheek... mostly :-) 07:34:08 which is, that it almost requires people to seek out help to make sense of it, to make headway. That makes for a more visible public discussion. It may be a detriment to the individual programmer, but it strengthens the community and raises the visibility of the language in a paradoxical way. 07:34:13 segher: ah 07:34:14 i do not agree at all that everyone these days needs to (or has to) learn java 07:35:52 well fsvo of "has to" I'm speaking to the prepondance of, say, job ads, undergraduate training, etc. 07:36:50 yeah it is a Very Bad Thing that kids are taught java in school (same goes for python) 07:37:10 you know, python might be the lesser evil here. 07:37:34 in light of the perl phenomenon I'm talking about above, it could be. 07:37:53 dunno what that was? i like Perl. a lot. 07:38:05 haha 07:40:52 so what Perl phenomenon was that?/ 07:41:59 that it seems to collect a lot of "how do I work this thing?" discussion. 07:42:33 segher: do you have any academic training in CS? 07:42:53 I don't, for the most part. 07:43:34 some, yes 07:44:32 we used Pascal and Mira as the introductory languages 07:46:33 segher: http://www.ohloh.net/p/mira-lang/factoids <- this one? 07:46:55 Miranda, the main predecessor of Haskell 07:48:23 ah 07:48:42 i always say mira, that's the executable you run. sorry :-) 07:49:36 no worries, I see that now :-) 08:24:59 'mira', to close friends. 08:25:09 'Miranda', to all others. 08:27:33 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 08:29:21 --- join: mark4 (~mark4@cpe-192-136-220-10.tx.res.rr.com) joined #forth 08:30:08 hahaha 08:30:15 --- join: sistemas (~sistemas@92.248.197.253) joined #forth 08:31:11 --- join: kumul (~mool@66-50-86-210.prtc.net) joined #forth 08:34:17 --- quit: sistemas (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 08:46:21 --- join: dkordic (~danilo@178-221-82-172.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) joined #forth 09:05:06 --- quit: Chillectual (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 09:25:29 --- quit: dkordic (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 09:36:39 --- join: Chillectual (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 09:41:25 --- quit: ttmrichter (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 10:50:03 --- join: LinearInterpol (~RJones@cpe-76-179-150-229.maine.res.rr.com) joined #forth 10:52:57 --- quit: Chillectual (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 11:24:02 --- join: w0rm_x (~w0rm@client-82-31-22-124.midd.adsl.virginm.net) joined #forth 12:24:24 --- quit: mark4 (Remote host closed the connection) 12:29:11 --- quit: kumul (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 12:32:32 --- quit: true-grue (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:39:17 --- part: w0rm_x left #forth 13:05:27 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-173-228-252-249.prtc.net) joined #forth 13:15:55 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 13:26:47 --- join: dkordic (~danilo@178-221-113-73.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) joined #forth 14:11:17 --- quit: kumul (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 14:12:42 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@lns-bzn-49f-62-147-170-46.adsl.proxad.net) joined #forth 15:35:26 --- quit: nighty^ (Remote host closed the connection) 16:32:24 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@60.55.9.25) joined #forth 16:45:22 --- join: kumul (~mool@adsl-173-228-252-249.prtc.net) joined #forth 17:05:27 --- quit: nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 18:00:12 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.146.217.62) joined #forth 18:41:13 --- join: dessos (~dessos@c-174-60-176-249.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) joined #forth 18:52:40 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 19:16:47 --- quit: LinearInterpol (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 19:19:09 --- join: ASau` (~user@p54AFE89A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 19:22:16 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 19:44:32 --- quit: dkordic (Quit: Ex-Chat) 20:42:01 --- quit: kumul (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 21:25:29 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 22:08:46 --- join: spoofer (~cruella@72.10.28.164) joined #forth 22:38:57 --- quit: spoofer (Quit: Leaving) 22:56:15 dzho: what I have met in practice, is that most people who hate Java don't know it practically. 22:57:46 Java is equal to C++ and definitly better than Python performance-wise. 22:59:06 Of course, Java requires more memory but it gives stability in return, 22:59:41 it is much harder to crash Java program than C++ program. 23:00:40 what is there to love about java? the syntax? 23:01:32 Syntax, very good GC, the best standard library around, 23:01:47 the best deployment solutions around, 23:02:16 one of the best IDEs around, 23:02:28 hmm. never heard it praised to this existent. 23:02:30 performance, 23:02:46 protection, 23:03:23 support in industry, 23:03:29 and its verbosity? 23:03:45 Verbosity is not a defect. 23:04:04 Try writing code of comparable quality in C++, 23:04:22 you'll see that it is as verbose, 23:04:25 only more cryptic. 23:04:44 so compared to c++, it's a godsend. 23:04:51 Basically, yes. 23:05:11 i see. 23:05:54 I find that in many cases it is easier to port part of Java RT than to use Boost. 23:09:40 --- join: true-grue (~quassel@95-25-98-207.broadband.corbina.ru) joined #forth 23:10:22 It is true that Java has some defects. 23:10:38 But neither C++ nor Python provide sane solutions to overcome analogous ones. 23:13:05 Besides, there's one tricky aspect in industry, 23:13:12 it is outsourcing. 23:13:51 Basically, once the code is written there's a tendency to outsource it for maitainance to programmers of lower qualification. 23:14:29 Here Java code degrades more gracefully. :) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.11.01