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21:05:35 I haven't had much time of late 21:06:08 I have been working and this month I am laboring over a game for a contest thingy 21:06:16 it involves cards 21:06:16 cool, what sort of game? 21:06:23 it's sort of educational 21:06:37 sorry i'll be back in a few minutes, i need to step afk for a few moments 21:06:38 if I described it in detail it would sort of detract from the surprise 21:16:19 RodgerTheGreat: okay. keeme posted, sounds interesting. 21:16:26 sure 21:16:56 I've been doing a bunch of infrastructural stuff and making assets but I may have a first playable version in another couple of days 21:18:20 in Forth? 21:18:25 yeah i'll definitely be around. 21:18:33 sadly no, this one I'm doing in java 21:18:44 this really needs mouse support 21:18:54 and I don't want to hack that into my VM 21:19:23 ah good. 21:19:43 I'm also doing some goofy stuff like drawing my own window chrome and the whole project really lends itself to OO 21:20:44 here, have a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/spsDAZ5.png 21:21:16 that is from about a week ago 21:21:40 whoa. flashback to win3.0 21:21:55 it's nearly pixel perfect 21:22:28 yes! 21:22:38 the menus and buttons and everything work the way they're supposed to etc 21:23:26 impressive. i'm tempted to ask details of how that relates to "cards" but i shouldn't ruin it 21:23:46 yeah give it some time and you shall see 22:00:44 found this cool patent http://www.google.com/patents/US8382366 22:07:40 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:07:47 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 22:23:59 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@92.98.15.164) joined #forth 22:28:24 I'm not sure "cool" and "patent" belong in the same sentence these days. 22:31:00 ttmrichter: ! 22:31:05 well inventor also need eating food, feeding children 22:31:23 Yes, but it's rarely the inventor who gets the money from patents. 22:31:31 yunfan: he cant, all the food has been patented 22:31:32 It's the inventor's corporate overlords who do. 22:31:57 tp: ] 22:32:00 most inventors die peniless 22:32:27 And most people/corporations with patents didn't invent shit. 22:32:36 Thomas Edison leaps to mind as a perfect example. 22:33:00 yep 22:33:02 The man bought, bullied and stole most of his patented inventions. 22:33:11 He was the Apple of his time. 22:33:35 he just knew how to bully,steal and as a last resort, buy 22:33:53 probably Jobs hero 22:34:05 ttmrichter: you always need some method to encourage people inventing 22:34:28 17 virgins when they die ? 22:34:38 that works for quite a few 22:34:43 yunfan: Yes, you do. The patent system is not such a method. 22:34:56 The patent system rewards people who already have lots of money they can use to bully real creatives. 22:34:59 no i think patent system is such a thing 22:35:04 You are wrong. 22:35:08 especially *todays American patent system* 22:35:11 Flatly, purely, 100% wrong. 22:35:18 the problem of patent system is its expireation time 22:35:18 Look at the history of patents in England. 22:35:41 Before England introduced patents, British engineering was the top of the world. German engineering was the cheap junk. 22:36:02 After patents, which were enforced in Britain but not in Germany, Germany became the home of top-notch, innovative engineering. 22:36:10 Invention STOPPED when patents were introduced. 22:36:26 Contrary to the claim that it inspires and rewards inventors, it stops them dead in their tracks. 22:36:27 those were the days! I could drag of any old mercedes in my stanley steamer! 22:36:35 Innovation DIES when you have patents. 22:36:39 agreed 22:36:52 ttmrichter: i appologize for my following words: i didnt see you invented anything useful, but instead i see those people you hate invented many one 22:36:58 that's the differences 22:37:03 What did Thomas Edison invent? 22:37:06 Quickly. 22:37:08 Name one thing. 22:37:19 (Hint: this is far more difficult that it seems at first glance.) 22:37:29 but those engineer also live on his salary 22:37:36 faster methods to monetize the work of others for onself ? 22:37:40 you might say it tesla found many things 22:37:41 And now you're moving the goalposts. 22:37:47 Because you KNOW that Edison didn't invent shit. 22:37:51 but you dont give tesla the money to invent 22:37:53 Even the light bulb was stolen. 22:38:13 Edison bought things. 22:38:22 And the people who actually invented them died penniless. 22:38:29 There's your patent system in a nutshell. 22:38:33 as do most inventors 22:38:38 Consider the motion picture camera. 22:38:57 Edison hounded the real creators of the technologies used by purchasing key patents. 22:39:02 Purchasing, note, not inventing himself. 22:39:10 as i said those people who actually invented things lives on their boss/company's salary and money 22:39:22 How very feudal an outlook. 22:39:27 Thomas Edison .. the father of the patent troll 22:39:37 These patents weren't even related to film photography, note. 22:39:48 They were on components used in making the cameras, but weren't related to the cameras proper. 22:39:59 But ... he could bludgeon people in the courts with these patents. 22:40:08 ttmrichter: when you talk the patent, have you ever support money to those potential inventors? 22:40:11 There was just enough sniff of plausibility about them that he could take them to court. 22:40:24 and i said, it do have problem 22:40:25 And then he would drain their finances dry. 22:40:35 but its the expire time's problem not the system 22:40:38 Until they had to sell him their own patents and designs at a song and a dance. 22:40:44 No, it's the SYSTEM. 22:41:00 Let's talk about my Trilobyte, for example. 22:41:05 ttmrichter: answer me, have you ever support money to those potential inventors? 22:41:11 Yes, I have. 22:41:16 how ? 22:41:26 First as a direct investor (as in buying shares), second through systems like Indiegogo. 22:41:31 does that guys lives on your supporting money? 22:41:42 If his invention takes off, no. 22:41:51 In the case of direct investment, I get a share back. 22:41:56 that's the problem 22:41:59 (That's what investment is about, after all.) 22:42:07 I had to laugh, Apples patent against Samsung was revoked by the USPTO, so Apple refined it and narrowed it and had it restated. SO Apple went back to court claiming the patent is legal, and Samsung owe them big bucks. When Samsung looked at the *refined* patent, they found that it no longer affects their products, so narrow is it's scope :) 22:42:20 of cause you could support him in indiegogo, but how much money could you give him? 22:42:20 In the case of Indiegogo, for a short time he lives off of the donations, but once he starts selling he's on his own. 22:42:26 100 dollar? 22:42:29 200 dollar? 22:42:29 Me personally? Obviously not a lot. 22:42:39 can he live on these little money? 22:42:39 But take a look at the funding levels on indiegogo projects. 22:42:43 $200,000 is about normal. 22:42:53 It's called *CROWD* funding for a reason. 22:43:00 My individual contribution isn't much. 22:43:03 and if someone want to research on DNA 22:43:14 Multiply it by a thousand and that's a $100,000 salary. 22:43:20 can he got enought money for the machine on indiegogo? 22:43:21 I could live well for about four years off of that. 22:43:39 No, of course not. He'd have to spend far too much money on licenses to Monsanto and others. 22:43:56 Before you can do ANY research on DNA you're paying upwards of a few million dollars on ... PATENT FEES. 22:44:03 Which stops innovation dead in its tracks. 22:44:09 Really, yunfan, do your research. 22:44:15 You're talking to at least two people here who have. 22:44:30 You're coming across as utterly ignorant; as having swallowed the Company Line. 22:44:50 Look at the history of patents (in their various forms) and look at what it did to innovation when introduced. 22:45:04 It has had the OPPOSITE of the claimed effect, 100% of the time. 22:45:26 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 22:45:38 The patent system is something that wealthy people like because it keeps them wealthy at the EXPENSE of the small players. 22:45:56 If one of the small players gets uppity and starts competing, you just find a patent, however peripheral, and drag them through the courts until they're destroyed. 22:46:00 --- quit: ErhardtMundt (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 22:46:02 ttmrichter: no i dont agree with you, actually the american high courts has judged that patent on DNA is invalid 22:46:04 --- join: itsy (~digital_w@79.60.112.87.dyn.plus.net) joined #forth 22:46:07 exactly, patents *lock out* small players 22:46:08 just months ago 22:46:12 Then you buy the technology at fire sale prices and add a few dozen more patents to your portfolio. 22:46:21 Fuck the American high courts. 22:46:30 American high courts exist to give blowjobs to American big business. 22:46:32 End of story. 22:46:37 tp: yes it lock out small players, that why i said the problem is the expiration time 22:46:45 No, it's EXISTENCE. 22:46:59 the current expiration time is too long for other competor 22:46:59 say NEC and wants to build a 29" monitor, but apple has a patent on *the round corners* of monitors ? Do NEC pay Apple megabucks ? 22:47:00 You could make them expire in 5 years and it would still be a tool used by the wealthy to club the poor. 22:47:27 The WHOLE POINT of the patent system is to keep rich companies from having to compete. 22:47:29 no, NEC don't pay anything, they just trade a patent of theirs for it 22:47:39 ttmrichter: they can not register the same patent twice 22:47:48 I didn't say they did. 22:47:54 I said they just keep using it as a club. 22:48:04 5 years. 17 years. Same difference. 22:48:09 Just different timeline. 22:48:12 so if we make the expiration time shorter to 5 years 22:48:20 but if *you* don't have any patents tha apple wants to trade, and you want to build that monitor ? forget it, they wont let you 22:48:23 You still build up massive patent portfolios that you beat other people with. 22:48:26 that would be good for researcher and other competor 22:48:35 The best time frame would be 0 years then. 22:48:38 17 years is too long. 22:48:46 5 years is better, but still too long. 22:48:47 they could learn lots from the latest expired patent 22:48:51 1 year is still better, but too long. 22:48:55 So obviously 0 years is best. 22:49:08 ttmrichter: you just dont give people live 22:49:31 yunfan: YOU'RE the one saying that it's OK for huge companies to fuck over inventors for a pittance, not me! 22:49:48 *I'M* saying that inventors get SCREWED by the system in favour of people who DON'T INVENT SHIT. 22:49:55 They buy inventions and then fuck over other inventors with them. 22:49:57 ttmrichter: no, i am not saying that 22:50:01 And they buy them AFTER fucking them over. 22:50:02 so who has a patent around here ? 22:50:14 i just insist there should be patent system, but the expiration time need to be shorter 22:50:15 tp: My name may be on a crypto patent from Entrust; I'm not sure. 22:50:16 I had a 'provisional patent' 22:50:26 yunfan: How short? 22:50:36 ttmrichter: but you want to destroy the whole system 22:50:42 We've already established that 5 years is too long (which is less than a third of what exists). 22:50:44 ttmrichter: 5 years i think 22:50:44 Yes, I do. 22:50:50 BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK. 22:50:56 It has NEVER worked. 22:50:57 20 years ago, but I couldnt afford to patent it, why ? $10,000AUD for *every* english speaking country 22:51:01 It NEVER WILL WORK. 22:51:04 ttmrichter: you're like a communistist 22:51:08 bs 22:51:10 No. I'm an anarchist. 22:51:21 i hate those daydreamer 22:51:28 I say compete head to head on an even playing field instead of one that favours those who already have money. 22:51:32 yunfan: everyone in the software business knows that patents are BAD news 22:51:54 tp: its just the time 22:52:00 and the bad officiers 22:52:00 Nez Zealand has now totally deleted any software patents 22:52:06 Ah, more moving goalposts. 22:52:11 It's the time. And the bad patent clerks. 22:52:15 Any more qualifiers you want to add? 22:52:19 in New Zealand, no more siftware patents 22:52:22 no more 22:52:27 (Hint: as you find the problems, you'll see that the whole system is fucked up and cannot work.) 22:52:35 ttmrichter: new zealand dont live on software 22:52:46 I didn't say anything about software. 22:52:49 Or about New Zealand. 22:53:00 I said patents don't work. I have ample historical precedence to show this. 22:53:01 it should cc to tp 22:53:08 that was me 22:53:12 And then let's talk about drug patents. 22:53:17 eww 22:53:35 People in Africa are dying in the millions because they can't get access to the vaccines they need to live. 22:53:40 yep 22:53:40 Why can't they? 22:53:44 patents 22:53:45 Because the drugs are patented. 22:53:51 ok if you destroy the patent system, what would you use to encourage people inventing? 22:53:51 Oh, but it gets worse. Far worse. 22:54:00 by your encourage words? ttmrichter 22:54:05 The SAME DRUGS cost less in Europe than they do in Africa. 22:54:17 yunfan: If you need encouragement to invent you're probably a lousy inventor. 22:54:29 At the mid-19th century Germans were inventing like crazy. 22:54:35 And they had no patent system. 22:54:37 None. 22:54:45 yunfan: whats this about *encouraging inventing* ?? 22:54:52 Indeed they were in violation of hundreds to thousands of British patents (which caused a massive spat). 22:54:59 So ... 22:55:00 inventors arent made, theyre born 22:55:02 Explain to me. 22:55:10 Germany, no patents, a hotbed of invention. 22:55:20 England, same time, patents, almost no innovation. 22:55:25 How did patents help? 22:55:29 ttmrichter: i hope when those passional inventor need materials for their inventing, you could support them for free 22:55:30 What encouraged the Germans? 22:55:46 yunfan: You keep ignoring my ACTUAL HISTORICAL EXAMPLES. 22:55:55 Until you answer my questions on this, I will simply ignore you. 22:56:00 ttmrichter: talk is cheap , you ask people work on passion, 22:56:09 Two more statements that don't address what I brought up and I flatly /ignore you. 22:56:16 One down, one to go. 22:57:11 ttmrichter: modern world after patent system invented has more intention 22:57:13 yunfan: I'm interested to hear who it is that 'supports' inventors ? 22:57:16 ttmrichter: that's my answer 22:57:24 And you're gone. Bye. 22:57:59 I get about one inventor a year coming to me for advice 22:58:12 they have no money, only a invention 22:58:20 tp: then? 22:58:52 I always advise them to sell it to a big company for 1% and think themselves lucky if they get it 22:59:05 but they never do 22:59:21 they want 100% of nothing, and in the end, thats all they get 22:59:51 so what's your point? 23:00:47 that there is NO support for inventors 23:01:52 tp: so they need patent system for money, and money support them 23:02:30 there is a patent system, but there is no support for inventors 23:02:57 it could be modify, but i dont think it need be destroy 23:02:59 the patent system doesnt support inventors 23:03:30 tp: then why you advise them to sell it to a big company? isnt it a supporting? 23:04:14 it's not a patent at that point, they don't have the MEGA bucks to pay for patents 23:04:40 yunfan: repeat after me, 'patents don't support inventors' 23:04:44 :) 23:04:58 I advise them to sell everything and ask 1% 23:05:17 tp: better than nothing , isnt it 23:05:19 all they have is a idea or invention 23:05:24 yes, exactly 23:05:37 not all people will help them free 23:06:12 no one helps anyone free, you must do that yourself 23:06:18 ttmrichter might support the inventor some dollars , but the inventor might need other guys service or materils 23:06:22 they need pay for that 23:06:48 --- part: ttmrichter left #forth 23:06:54 so a patent system give them hope and potential value 23:07:00 ttmrichter: wont be supporting anyone, he isnt a charity for down and out investors, leave him out of this :) 23:07:18 no, patents don't help inventors 23:07:29 patents only help fat cats stay fat 23:07:44 Venture capital always asks if you have a patent. 23:07:58 sure, thats reasonable 23:08:04 tp: then what's your solution? you dont need patent system, and you think no one would help inventors, 23:08:21 I *know* no one helps inventors 23:08:23 so how could our socienty encourage inventor? 23:08:48 I generally advise to avoid patents. Use trade secret and copyright. 23:09:05 encouraging inventors is as necessary as encouraging women to get pregnant 23:09:15 regnirps: absolutely 23:09:28 inventors invent, it's what they always have done 23:09:36 you don't need to encourage it 23:09:43 Patents are a pain and a legal money sink unless you have something really worth a lot. Like a medical equipment breakthrough. 23:10:15 Or optical device, etc. Then the patent can pay for itself. 23:10:30 yep 23:10:40 and gigabucks to pay for all that cost 23:11:03 I'll be frank, if I invented a antigravity device, Id *really* want patents 23:11:23 but the reality is that as a broke arsed inventor, some fat cat would steal it 23:11:43 Currently it is too easily abused with submarine patents and things like the patent for using XOR to write a pixel to a display. 23:11:49 id be better off giving my antigravity invention to yunfan 23:12:14 that way my awesome antigravity invention would only fuck up his life and not mine 23:12:15 maybe your western citizen dont have the pressure of living 23:12:35 tp: There is a way to keep it from being stolen. The Patent office in the US has a sort of pre-patent system where you send in papers and they will hold for 2 years (IIRC) in your name. 23:12:40 but in our country i dont think inventors invents only because its their way 23:13:49 yunfan: What country is that? 23:13:50 regnirps: goverment could adjust the area of patent system 23:13:53 regnirps: k 23:14:04 just like the american high courts says DNA cant be patents 23:14:16 and new zealand says software cant be patent 23:14:32 regnirps: i come from china 23:14:48 regnirps: we still worried about living stuff 23:15:35 regnirps: thats like our 'provisional paten' system 23:16:10 Everyone copies everything. The designer ofthe boards I sell is constantaly worried about being copied. But he does the designing with copied versions of Protel and Altium Designer :-) 23:16:29 He is on Foshan. 23:16:32 in 23:16:33 regnirps: and as you already know, if there're no patent protection, how many your western invention would be cloning by our chinese factories? :] 23:16:53 They clone for sales inside China anyway. 23:17:39 You used to be able to buy motorcycles made in Chine that said "Yamaha" on the cylinder castings. 23:17:47 regnirps: of course they still could be copied, but that made them take a risk just like even the law forbid you to kill people , you still can use a gun killing 23:19:10 True, but there is no infrastructure of business law. The police will tell me where to hire some guys to go beat up the fellow who ripped me off. 23:19:44 hahah 23:20:07 regnirps: no, there are many law and policy to protect business 23:20:34 * tp believes in metalshielded micros with fuse protection for patent protection 23:20:48 i remember american goverment has warned chinese goverment that many chinese company are using illegal copy of ms's windows 23:20:59 As I'm sure you have experienced, China is still strangely provincial. If you are from Shanghai and someone steals your wallet in Guangzhou, the local police will ask why you are bothering them. You are not from Guangzhou. 23:21:39 regnirps: i am now at beijing, but my hometown close to shanghai 23:21:53 Nanjing? 23:22:28 nope , its huangshan, the yellow mountain 23:22:39 we have many foreignoer visitors a year 23:23:08 Ah. We support the research of someone who is from that area and now at Texas Tech. 23:23:56 He is the chief computer scientist now for my company. He starts as a CS professor in Ohio this fall. 23:24:38 he is from nanjing? 23:25:01 And goes with me on trips to China, which is a good thing because my "po tung wa" is terrible. 23:25:04 Yes. 23:25:48 regnirps: i think you dont need worry about your mandarin, english is a forced course for chinese students 23:26:09 so regnirps did you ever get your wallet back after that trip to Guangzhou ? ;-) 23:26:15 and in the tourist area, there're so many people know english 23:26:29 By the way, if anyone wants to work on Forth for ARM, bare metal or under linux, I will give you a deal on ARM9 ARM11 or A8 Cortex. www.andahammer.com 23:26:49 tp you need to feel lucky that you only lose wallet in guangzhou not your hand 23:27:25 tp: I guy I was in school with moved back to Iran (!!!) and was buying used construction cranes in Shanghai and having them shipped to Iran. 23:27:30 regnirps: i am interested of what products you use forth on 23:28:25 He bought one, watch it disassembled, put in a container and put on a ship. Whe it got to Iran he had a container of scrap metal. 23:28:40 On return to Shanghai he found the same crane for sale by the same guy again. 23:28:55 The police told him where to hire some guys to go beat him up. 23:29:27 yunfan: ouch! 23:29:46 regnirps: hahahh 23:29:46 There was payoff all the way from the beginning to the ships crew. 23:30:10 I have a Micro2440 kit here, pretty little thing, but I havent done anything with it 23:30:34 yunfan: I don't use Forth in any products now, but would like to have MOPS or the equivalent of Win32Forth on the ARM Linux boards. 23:30:35 these days I'm into ARM chips without all the extra support 23:30:45 tp: in guangzhou,there're bandits group ,who ride motorbike and using bush-knife, cutting walker's hand for the bags 23:31:07 tp in china, we call them 'cutting hand party' 23:31:17 `砍手党` 23:31:26 Or slit your pocket from behind. They don't mind if they get some skin. 23:31:56 so i think if you go to guangzhou, you'd better have a gun 23:32:06 I guess I'll be deleting guangzhou from my list of places to see before I die 23:32:19 In Guangzhou I use a walking stick the size of the ratan poles that the bicycle police cary. 23:32:43 and a black belt in pole fighting wouldnt go astray ? 23:32:49 And it is rattan with a brass end piece. 23:33:04 you lead a dangerous life regnirps ! 23:33:19 tp how you use your black belt skills againt those motorbike bandits? 23:33:25 Na, you would not want to get into trouble there. Just enough to make them look for an easier victim. 23:33:54 yunfan: you stick your pole in their front wheel as they race past 23:34:41 Plus you can just be a little careful about where and how you walk about so that you ar enear shop doors and away from easy running or cycle riding. 23:34:54 tp: they would follow you from behind , and before you turn around, your hand wil drop, then no pole 23:34:58 then when they hit the ground you just empty several magazines from your AK74 into them ? 23:35:25 crikey 23:35:36 you could wear a google glass and got a behind camara 23:35:43 What's up Dangermouse? 23:35:46 so you could walking and monitoring 23:35:51 my bodyguard always follows 10 paces behind me ? 23:36:10 if someone follow you , you could quickly jump away 23:36:18 Like a South Chicago area. 23:36:28 or you could just go to shanghai not guangzhou :] 23:36:39 hahah, you guys ... I better go and get some work done... 23:36:50 or you could hire some black peoples in guangzhou 23:37:04 as your bodyguard 23:37:05 I'll just stay in australia :) 23:37:10 Foshan district is OK and a few others with lots of the newer condo housing. 23:37:36 I go all over Shenzhen by myself walking or by underground. 23:37:46 shenzheng is a good city 23:38:02 The Party does not want anyone messing up business or embarassing them. 23:38:08 with much more women than men 23:38:28 Yes. To a Westerner is ti amazing. 23:39:02 From the one child policy there are a lot of very nice divorced women with one child who can not find a man. 23:39:21 Usually a girl child. 23:39:52 An old pervert like me could probably find a nice wife. 23:40:14 perfect, supply and demand 23:40:20 and we chinese go to vietnam for wife :] 23:40:40 There are some beauties in VN! 23:41:47 i know one 23:41:49 I send baby formula to a couple guys who have had a second child by birthing in Hong Kong. And I think they pay a fine or tax. 23:42:57 well you could have a second child according to the latest law 23:43:13 plus a wife from VN will always know how to strip and clean your AK45 23:43:27 but for me i think 3 children is not more 23:43:52 tp: can you have guns in australia? 23:43:56 a wife from california would just call the cops when she was your AK 23:44:00 saw 23:44:16 yunfan: no, we are like Hong Kong 23:44:55 prison for having a pushbike pump with firecracker and a marble to shoot out the end 23:45:18 but the cops naturally have the latest in full auto machine guns 23:45:20 I can cary a concealed weapon in the States so I always feel a little vulnerable in Gunagzhou. 23:45:22 tp: but when i read the article about american's gun right, it says the english king made the law which require all citizen have gun 23:45:51 regnirps: I would feel vulnerable also 23:46:24 yunfan: I don't know about that, Im Australian and we are a LONG way from America 23:46:54 Americans are our allies, but we don't have American History at school 23:47:04 tp: that's the england king who made the law 23:47:17 and you are still have relationship with UK 23:47:27 we are a long way from England too, in fact we are a long way from everybody 23:47:44 the Queen is still our 'head of state' 23:48:09 The US Bill of Rights gun amendment is debated these days. But basically it says that the people have the right to be as well armed as the police. 23:48:40 --- join: ttmrichter (~ttmrichte@gertm.eu) joined #forth 23:49:05 I like that amendment! 23:49:11 welcome back:) ttmrichter 23:49:13 i like that too 23:49:37 Thus making a police state impossible. Today there are a lot of people willing to give that up and rely on the government for protection. 23:49:44 in australia we have nothing like that, we do not even have a right of free speech 23:50:09 the chinese people would totally agree with the GUN rights 23:50:10 we do not have the right of trial by jury 23:50:42 regnirps: I believe the founding fathers has a thing or two to say about people like that ? 23:50:54 tp: that remind me the white australia policy 23:51:01 The Founding Fathers also had things to say about the inferiority of blacks. 23:51:13 The US today is politically flirting with the same situation as the ROman Senate giving power to Julius "for just a little while". 23:51:13 I wouldn't exactly hold them up as paragons of wisdom, myself. 23:51:15 don't tell my partner! 23:51:43 ttmrichter: I don't recall that. It is inthe COnstitution? 23:51:52 I'll get more racist taunts, she might start calling me 'white boy' again 23:52:18 regnirps: It's in the private writings of among others Thomas Jefferson. 23:52:30 They were certainly paragons of wisdom. Look what we have. 23:52:53 The key to remember is that the USA's Founding Fathers were human beings with all the quirks and flaws of such. 23:53:02 Venerating them as saints and gods is a major error. 23:53:13 Still a genius. They didn't know anything about quantum mechanics either. 23:53:15 id say that if they weren't paragons of wisdon, they'd do until some paragons of wisdom came along ... 23:53:50 Looking down on them is a disastrous cultural blunder. 23:54:22 I don't recall the founding fathers ever being nominated for sainthood ? 23:54:26 It drags down their ideas and philosophy of individual rights as well. 23:54:44 tp: You're not watching certain elements of the right wing very closely then. 23:54:49 hahah 23:55:04 * tp slinks back down a dingo cave 23:55:19 Makes the COnstitution a "fluid document" and that leads to decline. 23:56:00 The Constitution STARTED as a fluid document. 23:56:12 Hint: the word 'amendment' contains within it the notion of 'change'. 23:56:20 Why would you bother watching the right when the left is in power and has saddled generations with trillions in debt? There won;t be any more presidents from the right. 23:56:28 I think the founding fathers were clever men, and I cant see much of their style of thinking in the current or last few administrations 23:56:38 * ttmrichter raises an eyebrow. 23:56:44 Yes. Amendments require a process, not a judgement. 23:56:46 (im only a casual observer, no clue really) 23:57:02 First, there are no left wingers in American politics. There are two slightly different flavours of right wing. 23:57:31 Second ... remind me ... was it a Democrat or a Republican that brought you into not ONE but TWO unwinnable, massively draining wars? 23:57:42 * tp hides 23:58:02 And is it on the whole Democrats or Republicans who are constantly saying that MORE needs to be funnelled into these wars? 23:58:14 (Hint: The answer begins with "R".) 23:58:17 Ah.You mean Obama's Afghan war? I'm sure you are right. I never thought of it that way. 23:58:46 Wow! /ignore is getting a serious workout today with the whack-jobs! 23:59:02 Who controls the Senate and the POTUS? 23:59:22 ttmrichter: has the most worn down 'ignore' key of any IRC user :) 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.07.11