00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.26
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03:25:45 <yunfan> ttmrichter: do you have any CAS tool recommend for running on linux ? cc tp
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05:14:45 <ttmrichter> yunfan: I have no idea what CAS is.
05:23:36 <ttmrichter> yunfan: I've also been on the receiving end of multiple serial "干杯" events this evening so I'm not sure I can be helpful.
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06:24:00 * dys uses maxima for his CAS needs
06:26:09 <ttmrichter> And CAS is?
06:26:52 <c00kiemon5ter> Copy And Share
06:26:55 <c00kiemon5ter> :D
06:27:05 <ttmrichter> I'm even more confused.
06:27:20 <ttmrichter> Am I being thick as a whale sandwich here or are you guys screwing with my head?
06:28:25 <dys> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system
06:28:35 <tangentstorm> hey all
06:28:48 * tangentstorm is also a fan of maxima.
06:29:08 <ttmrichter> Ah.
06:29:38 <ttmrichter> I use Prolog.  Or rather I would if I didn't find maths intensely dull.
06:29:40 <ttmrichter> :)
06:29:51 <tangentstorm> why are we talking about maxima?
06:30:21 <c00kiemon5ter> 13:55:25       yunfan | ttmrichter: do you have any CAS tool recommend for running on linux ? cc tp
06:30:47 <ttmrichter> You don't want to know how long it took me to figure out that "cc tp" wasn't some bizarre smiley.
06:31:19 <tangentstorm> carbon copy, like in email?
06:31:29 <ttmrichter> Oh, I did eventually figure it out.
06:31:39 <ttmrichter> I'm just not firing on all cylinders right now.
06:31:44 <ttmrichter> I've got maybe two firing.
06:31:55 <ttmrichter> (My brain is usually a three cylinder engine.)
06:32:17 <tangentstorm> i notice that people in different parts of the world use different smileys...
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06:32:51 <tangentstorm> i've noticed that russians seem to write (:
06:34:02 <ttmrichter> Here's my smiley: /|\_(OvO)_/|\
06:35:53 <c00kiemon5ter> that's a bar or owl
06:35:58 <tangentstorm> that looks like an owl pretending to be batman
06:36:13 <c00kiemon5ter> s/r/t/
06:37:16 <ttmrichter> tangentstorm: Got it in one.
06:37:18 <ttmrichter> Batowl.
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20:12:30 <yunfan> c00kiemon5ter: i just want to quickly solve the equations :[
20:21:31 <tangentstorm> maxima does that for you, yunfan 
20:22:26 <tangentstorm> yunfan: i was able to get RodgerTheGreat's mako version for android running on my nexus 7
20:25:01 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i insist that we need change the input on touch screen device like android for forth
20:25:11 <yunfan> so a console based forth i dont think is suit for android
20:26:45 <RodgerTheGreat> from my perspective if you can't attach a keyboard to something it's only barely a computer
20:27:12 <tangentstorm> i told someone about forth and they came back with this: 
20:27:36 <tangentstorm> http://iconforth.appspot.com/html/about.html
20:27:45 <tangentstorm> the icons are broken for me, but it looks neat
20:28:10 <tangentstorm> i guess he's got a presentation on the site too: http://iconforth.appspot.com/
20:32:41 <yunfan> well you could use keyboard both, but i dont think its need to be the main input , and notice that what i talk is touch screen device
20:34:07 <tangentstorm> have you ever looked at oberon or the acme / wiley text editors yunfan?
20:34:22 <yunfan> tangentstorm: nope
20:35:10 <tangentstorm> oberon is an old operating system/programming language... it had a very text-centric user interface
20:35:50 <tangentstorm> instead of fixed menus you could just type commands in oberon and they'd be recognized as syntax
20:36:16 <yunfan> then?
20:36:21 <tangentstorm> a modern analogy might be how you can just type CertainWords in a wiki and they become hyperlinks
20:36:26 <tangentstorm> except they would run commands
20:36:34 <tangentstorm> so there was no command prompt
20:36:53 <tangentstorm> you just had text documents and you could type your text into them and then they're your menus
20:37:04 <yunfan> sounds like reStructureText or markdown ?
20:37:14 <tangentstorm> no...
20:37:39 <tangentstorm> the whole thing looks a bit like a word processor.. it's got fonts and graphics and all that
20:38:39 <tangentstorm> but if you happen to type Out.String("Hello World"); in the middle of a sentence (like I just did) then you could click on that and it would print hello world.
20:38:57 <tangentstorm> well, actually i'm not sure about that specific example.
20:39:20 <yunfan> but it still require you main using keyboard for inputing
20:39:25 <tangentstorm> i'm not sure you can pass parameters like that
20:39:28 <tangentstorm> yes but hang on
20:39:45 <tangentstorm> once the text is on the screen, almost everything you do is with a mouse
20:39:55 <tangentstorm> like say you want to do some forth stuff
20:40:26 <tangentstorm> you could have your library of forth words predefined, and then just pull up a list of the ones you want to use
20:40:31 <tangentstorm> then you click on them like buttons
20:41:17 <tangentstorm> also, in oberon, you can select text with the mouse, then click one of those words, and the text you selected will be passed to the word you clicked on
20:41:18 <yunfan> but lets consider forth
20:41:24 <tangentstorm> i guess in forth it would be put on the stack
20:41:37 <yunfan> all the words you defined is made of other EXISTING words
20:41:42 <tangentstorm> yeah exactly
20:41:53 <tangentstorm> that's the case in pretty much all languages though :)
20:42:00 <yunfan> those EXISTING words could be selected by your finger not keyboard
20:42:05 <yunfan> isnt that?
20:42:10 <tangentstorm> yunfan: yes
20:42:20 <tangentstorm> in oberon it was a mouse, but it could be a touch device 
20:42:39 <yunfan> tangentstorm: so what you reall need to use keyboard is just the defining word name
20:42:44 <tangentstorm> and just like in forth, the words could be executed immediately or quoted
20:42:44 <yunfan> and numbers
20:42:53 <tangentstorm> yeah
20:43:26 <tangentstorm> the oberon mouse had 3 buttons and you could actually combine the clicks in weird ways
20:43:27 <yunfan> numbers do have just 10 choices, which could be made as a soft keyboard
20:43:44 <tangentstorm> like if you held down the left button and clicked the middle button it would do something.
20:44:11 <tangentstorm> there were a bunch of combinations..
20:44:17 <tangentstorm> on android you'd probably do gestures
20:44:49 <tangentstorm> or maybe touch a button to tell it what 'tool' you're using like in a paint program.
20:45:47 <yunfan> tangentstorm: maybe you could use the builtin camera do some cool inputing :]
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20:47:19 <tangentstorm> i can see it now... YunForth-powered billboards flirting with passers-by on the street. "hey there, cutie. wink and smile at me for 10% off" :)
20:48:49 <yunfan> :]
20:49:42 <tangentstorm> actually that will probably happen sooner or later if it hasn't already... :/
20:50:15 <yunfan> there're many these magican like tech already
20:51:02 <tangentstorm> yeah but reading your facial expressions?
20:51:19 <yunfan> i dont know these tech's principles, that made me upset
20:51:54 <yunfan> or maybe brain wave?
20:52:08 <yunfan> that would save my time for coding and writing
20:52:19 <tangentstorm> that you can do
20:52:33 <tangentstorm> http://www.neurosky.com/
20:52:59 <tangentstorm> i have an older model of these. it's really hard for me to use though.
20:53:17 <yunfan> there're so much times that my brain need to stop waiting my hand to input
20:53:23 <tangentstorm> and it picks up a very strong signal when you blink
20:53:41 <yunfan> if we have brain wave input, that would make us input speedly
20:54:24 <tangentstorm> the neurosky device i have sends its data over bluetooth so you can use it on android that way
20:54:57 <yunfan> tangentstorm: if i have that, i might be a high yielding blog author
20:55:09 <tangentstorm> it's not going to let you type or anything :)
20:55:37 <tangentstorm> maybe you could use it to select words off a menu... but it's not easy to control.
20:55:39 <yunfan> tangentstorm: what do you use it for?
20:56:18 <tangentstorm> a bluetooth headset, mostly :)
20:56:19 <yunfan> tangentstorm: since it could be train, maybe you could let it act as a keyboard after some training
20:56:25 <yunfan> just like you first using keyboard
20:56:42 <tangentstorm> the sensors just aren't good enough yet.
20:56:56 <tangentstorm> but maybe someday
20:57:13 <tangentstorm> (mine's a couple years old though)
20:58:58 <yunfan> i heart that scientist have let paralytic twittering via brain wave device
21:00:07 <tangentstorm> there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quw_Kci4fUg
21:00:27 <tangentstorm> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/DasherSummary2.html
21:00:38 <tangentstorm> you can get that on android
21:00:41 <yunfan> http://item.jd.com/1014580100.html  i like this suite
21:00:55 <yunfan> maybe i could send it to my girl as a gift
21:01:07 <tangentstorm> :) mine doesn't have the cat ears
21:01:27 <yunfan> and that device from neurosky is affordable to me 
21:01:35 <yunfan> its a chinese provider , aha
21:02:04 <tangentstorm> :)
21:02:18 <tangentstorm> well.. it's fun to play with, but don't get your hopes up
21:02:37 <tangentstorm> the biofeedback stuff for relaxing is pretty nice though
21:02:40 <yunfan> yes it need to higher there sensor  precision
21:03:59 <tangentstorm> it comes with some apps that give you feedback on your mental state... like if you relax it'll levetate some 3d object, and the more relaxed you are. the more it floats..
21:04:17 <yunfan> tangentstorm: i like the idea in the video showing alternative input
21:04:29 <tangentstorm> i'm not good at it usually, but if i'm about to fall asleep, it just floats up to the top right away
21:04:55 <yunfan> tangentstorm: well that would be more suit for bed
21:05:04 <yunfan> like a balloon bed
21:05:37 <tangentstorm> :)
21:06:05 <tangentstorm> there's another one that makes something  light up if you concentrate... and if you concentrate really hard you can blow it up
21:06:40 <tangentstorm> they have an API you can get the data from too
21:07:04 <tangentstorm> it wasn't ready for android last time i checked, so i was digging into the bluetooth stuff... i wonder if it's available now
21:07:18 <yunfan> you mean that alternative text input ?
21:08:01 <tangentstorm> no
21:08:23 <tangentstorm> just an API for getting brainwave data 
21:08:25 <tangentstorm> http://store.neurosky.com/products/developer-tools-3-android
21:08:28 <yunfan> then the neurosky ?
21:08:31 <yunfan> i knew that
21:08:39 <yunfan> they are developer friendly
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22:36:57 <yunfan> http://s-macke.github.io/jor1k/
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22:54:31 <ttmrichter> Ahoy all.
22:54:33 <ttmrichter> tp: ping
23:01:52 <tangentstorm> heya ttmrichter 
23:01:58 <tangentstorm> yunfan: cool :)
23:04:29 <yunfan> tangentstorm: its just 50M hz :[
23:09:28 <tangentstorm> yeah you almost need to buy a faster pc to get that true old-school slow pc experience i guess... :)
23:10:31 <yunfan> i hope they could made a webbased fpga
23:11:51 <tp> heho me hearties!
23:12:01 <tp> ttmrichter:  pinback
23:13:06 <ttmrichter> tp: It turns out I don't have to wait to get an actual STM32F405RG.  The STM32F4DISCOVERY has an STM32F407VG which is a close kissing cousin (a strict superset, in fact) of the former.
23:13:24 <ttmrichter> It's getting Forthed once I settle some problems in the Keil toolchain.
23:16:20 <tp> nice
23:16:29 <tp> I have a F4 Discovery also
23:16:59 <tp> theyre all close inbred cousins in the ARM families anyway
23:23:47 <ttmrichter> Well in this case perhaps "cousin" is the wrong word.  Perhaps "fraternal twin" is closer.
23:24:25 <ttmrichter> Because really the difference between them is that the on in the discovery board has more peripherals (like the camera interface, external memory, etc.).
23:28:34 <tp> yes
23:28:52 <tp> mine has a class D amp, and a motion sensor
23:28:59 <tp> oph and a microphone
23:31:48 <ttmrichter> I'm talking about the on-chip peripherals.  The rest of the board has that stuff too, yes.  :)
23:32:35 <tp> you can still test and write words for the non used perepherals if fancy takes ...
23:36:50 <ttmrichter> Oh that's very highly probable.
23:36:58 <ttmrichter> No reason why I can't make a Forth suited to more chips.
23:37:02 <ttmrichter> Oh, and success!
23:37:10 <ttmrichter> I've got the Keil toolchain working with my Discovery board.
23:37:28 <tp> why Keil and not Gcc as a matter of minor curiosity ?
23:37:40 <ttmrichter> Because I have to do this under Windows.
23:37:44 <ttmrichter> STLink.
23:37:54 <tp> argh, of course
23:37:57 <ttmrichter> (Note how you only have to remove one letter to get "stink".)
23:38:31 <tp> Ill see to it that the appropriate medal is forthcoming after it's up and running ...
23:39:02 <ttmrichter> Anyway, once I get the real hardware in I'll switch to using JTAG or SWD from Linux and use the relevant GCC toolchain.
23:39:06 <ttmrichter> Although I really do hate gas.
23:39:52 <tp> gas ?
23:40:00 <tp> gnu assembler ?
23:46:19 <ttmrichter> Yes.
23:46:31 <ttmrichter> It has the most fugly syntax of any assembler I've seen since the '70s.
23:59:33 <ttmrichter> OK, This is very heartening.  And I see now the appeal to a proper debugger when doing embedded stuff.  :)
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