00:00:00 --- log: started forth/13.06.24 00:00:01 * Xark remembers a Forth from Atari, but didn't realize they were too involved in Forth... 00:00:30 i wonder if they'd ever release the source to those old games. 00:00:34 regnirps: Really? I didn't realize that. I got source to Centipede, but it was pretty generic 6502... 00:00:50 They did not get into teh standards stuff. Just used basic modifies FIG to get the arcade machines to use a small memory for a big game. 00:00:58 Waitwhat? Forth83 is my favourite Forth of the standards. :( 00:02:00 Can't rememeber who was the big pusher on 83. Mayeb Don whatsisname oin COlorado, or Mitch Bradley (later the author of Open Formware at SUN). 00:02:10 Me too. Even if they didn't take it seriously, they did a good job. 00:02:32 * Xark doesn't find note of Atari Asteroids written in Forth... 00:02:50 The first mass distributed Forth listing was Bill Ragsdale's FIG for 6502. 00:02:58 nor Battlezone... 00:03:15 It was considerd a trade secret at Atari. 00:03:38 Interesting. 00:03:55 Xark: There are quite a few MMORPG games in China based on Erlang that you'll NEVER find noted as using Erlang. 00:03:57 Hey, I also worked on the Handy for Epyx. 00:04:02 Because they view it as a tactical advantage. 00:04:44 Jack Trameill bought them out and renamed it the uhm.. 00:04:57 Atari Lynx. Yes, thats it. 00:06:07 Venture Partners on Sand Hill ROad pulled out. they didn't see a market for a full motion color handheld game !!!!! This is when the Nintendo was a gleam in the eye. 00:06:39 That was pretty odd how Tramiel became Atari and (e.g.) Miner made Commodore chipsets (reversed places in the 80s). :) 00:06:48 Anyway, only connection is it used a 16 MHz 65C02 custom form VLSI and I was trying to get then to go ARM. 00:07:25 regnirps: I guess that was in the days of the first ARM chip (as used in Acorn)? 00:07:40 A littel later, but not much. 00:08:01 * Xark remembers the Lynx (but I was working on Amiga games) 00:08:53 The Huston brothers had made a prototypr Apple II ARM and when Jobs saw the performance he killed it. Even though the billons from Apple II were still supporting the Mac, he was determined to get rid of it. 00:09:30 regnirps: Heh, and then they went ahead with IIgs... 00:09:33 I had a friend at VLSI who was working on their newly licensed ARMs. 00:09:50 * Xark has an old Apple Newton (early ARM). :) 00:10:00 Xark: and Newtons and all the other ARM stuff that makes all their money noe! 00:10:36 regnirps: Yep. 65816 was pretty kludge (after playing with 68000 I was not impressed). 00:10:43 kludgy* 00:11:09 "Apple II forever" - no thanks. :) 00:11:13 Truly sucked. 00:11:24 But you know, it inspired the ARM? 00:11:39 What did? The 6502? 00:11:39 I know 6502 did, but really 65816? 00:13:00 Yes, the guys in England came to see the 65816 when they were planing the next BBC computer and on the lfight home started thinking they could do something much better. WHich is why the ARM has the same processor status register as the 65C02. 00:13:37 ARM is interesting, but seems it took them until Thumb2 to get a decent instruction set. :) 00:13:48 Waitwhat?! 00:13:57 I have a small pile of eMates from a school. Thought I would do somethign wiht them some day wth FOrth on ARM. 00:14:03 "Thumb2" and "decent" in the same sentence used unironically?! 00:14:34 I like straight ARM because of the condition execution. 00:15:00 ttmrichter: I like Thumb2 (and find wasting 4 bits for condition code per opcode not worth it). :) 00:15:20 Conditonal execution of each instruction. Gets rid of all the short BNE, BEQ type stuff without stalling a pipeline. 00:15:23 The ITE opcode is a good compromise IMHO. 00:15:26 I like instructions whose opcodes I can read without a lookup chart. 00:15:54 The IT opcode is fugly. I understand why it's there, but it makes me want to cry every time I see it. 00:16:15 ttmrichter: Well, I see better code density and little downside. 00:16:40 But what I REALLY don't like about Thumb2 is the irregular instruction set, the screwed up relationship to registers above R7 and a few other things like that. 00:16:51 ttmrichter: Thumb1 was tear-inducing I agree (especially for FPU) 00:16:55 I mean, it's not at Intel levels of fugly yet, but damn, they're really trying. 00:16:58 Woz wrote a 16 bit VM in the Apple II ROMs. DId anyone ever to somethign like and FPGA version? 00:17:57 ttmrichter: Yes, but that is just encoding issues that for the most part the assembler makes transparent (with UAL). 00:18:14 Thumb is surprisingly efficient on half width memory, not that I ever thought that would be needed. I would rather have 32 bits and not worry about ti. 00:18:27 Makes harder when debugging or doing post-mortems on core dumps and the like. 00:18:35 ttmrichter: OK, I agree it is getting "kludgy" from backwards compatibility (but agree, not near x86 yet). :) 00:18:52 And on top of that ... I HAVE TO WRITE THE GOD-DAMNED ASSEMBLER FOR THIS! :-( 00:19:13 (In my Forth environment, I mean.) 00:19:13 regnirps: That was a factor on GameBoy Advance. On Vita Thumb2 is pretty much the way to go. 00:20:00 Ack. Getting late. Good to see a healthy number of users on the channel and I'll have to hang out. 00:20:03 * Xark just finished a project doing static translation from MIPS to Thumb2 (wish I had more registers on ARM)... 00:20:31 still can't beieve we haev the Lynx at the same time as the first Game Boy and they let it die. 00:20:32 regnirps: Night. Yes, nice chatting. :) 00:20:47 same here. 00:20:57 is AFK 00:21:00 First GameBoy was lame by comparison... 00:22:14 Xark: Yeah, the ARM has a nice number of registers if you come from the Intel side of the fence, but man is it lame if you come from the MIPS side. :) 00:22:49 Hehe, yes, especially PS2 MIPS (with VU vector registers etc.). :) 00:24:07 what do you guys do for a living? 00:24:34 * Xark is a long time game developer (since 1981 professionally - hired for Atari 2600 work). 00:25:19 --- quit: rixard (Quit: rixard) 00:25:21 --- quit: Bahman (Remote host closed the connection) 00:26:10 Xark: Atarti 2600 development for which company? 00:27:21 DocPlatypus: McToy officially (same company that developer the Adventure Vision portable) but on contract for Sega (Buck Rogers, Star Trek & Tapper). 00:27:31 developed* 00:27:49 ok 00:28:16 Atari 2600 market crashed in 1981/1982 so I was switched to 400/800/5200 (which was "just fine" with me). :) 00:29:06 yeah 00:29:27 I never programmed for the 2600 but did play it a lot. I taught myself BASIC and 6502 assembler on an Atari 1200XL 00:29:48 tangentstorm: English teacher here. 00:29:53 Right on. 2600 was pretty difficult to even get a decent screen up on. 00:31:21 128 bytes of RAM or some such? 00:31:29 * Xark notes modern programmers rarely appreciate what is was like to have only 128 bytes of RAM for everything (however, I am glad things aren't quite so spartan anymore also). :) 00:31:37 indeed 00:31:44 it was all zero page I hope 00:32:01 actually... it can't have been, 6502 wants a stack on page $01 00:32:17 DocPlatypus: yep, but you also had to use it for stack (and if you needed to waste an "odd cycle" would often access it as absolute) 00:32:47 ah, so they wired it to both pages $00 and $01 00:32:48 It only decoded low 7 bits (so was stack and zero page). :) 00:33:05 or, actually, everything else too 00:33:26 guessing the ROM started at something like $8000 00:33:56 DocPlatypus: IIRC, $f000 (with 4K of ROM - without bank swapping). 00:34:22 No OS or anything like that (5200 had a small 2K OS I think). 00:34:52 wow 00:35:00 DocPlatypus: It needed the reset etc. vectors at $FFFx 00:37:28 DocPlatypus: It has been fairly crazy going from 2600 (etc.) to modern machines like PS3 and PC. A fun career (and still going). :) 00:38:47 Xark: Smallest processor I used had 256 bytes of RAM. And 1KB or 2KB of ROM (forget which). 00:38:54 An HC05K-series. 00:40:20 ttmrichter: Not sure I am familiar with that one. Perhaps the slowest I have programmed was the Dreamcase VU unit (LCD in the controller). It used a CPU called the "Potato chip" at some hundreds of kilohertz. 00:40:29 Dreamcast* 00:40:57 Xark: The HC05 was the HC11's dumber cousin. 00:41:13 ttmrichter: What vendor? 00:41:17 yeah, a 6805 00:41:17 Motorola. 00:41:19 Hitachi? 00:41:28 Ahh, 6805. 00:41:42 lol... the "Potato chip" 00:41:47 that's hilarious 00:41:49 It was a 6805 core with extra MCU stuff slathered onto it. 00:42:05 I did a bit of 6809 in Coco, but not 6800 or 6805/6811. 00:42:10 yes once it hit the HC series ? 00:42:16 tp: Yes. 00:42:31 The HC was Controller IIRC. 00:42:44 wow 128 bytes.. dang. 00:43:03 Yeah, 128 bytes is basically barely enough to do ISRs and maybe a couple of primitive calculations. 00:43:06 6800 series and up were just beautiful to write assembler for, but that day is long gone, and there are now none alive who remember it ;-) 00:43:07 256 bytes isn't much better. 00:43:20 http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=68HC05K0&webpageId=M98633&nodeId=01624684498633&fromPage=tax 00:43:23 tp: I remember it well. 00:43:27 High speed cmos ? 00:43:29 I did loads of HC05 and HC11 code. 00:43:42 6800 series and up were just beautiful to write assembler for, but that day is long gone, and there are now only two alive who remember it ;-) 00:43:47 The thing I connected to is the HC05K0. I used the HC05K1 myself. 00:43:50 Quite a bit nicer. 00:43:50 tp: I used 6502 in 6800 days, but I do remember 6809. Who can forget CPU with SEX opcode. :) 00:44:12 i was thinking about making my concurrent vms have 256 bytes each... i thought it sounded just barely usable ... never occured to me that at one point 256 bytes would have been a luxury :) 00:44:13 hahah, good point 00:44:45 * Xark always wanted a SWTPe 6800, but had to settle for 4K Ohio Scientific C1P. :) 00:44:51 yeah, Im from the days when people soldered in diodes to create the ROM 00:45:02 Oh, wait. HC might be Hardware Controller. 00:45:16 Xark: I think I had a SWTP 6800 dev system! 00:45:28 tp: Wow, perhaps a bit before my time even. I did solder joysticks and a UART to my first computer. :) 00:45:36 it was a semi hobyist unit 00:46:04 and one of the sweetest dev systems Ive ever had, if Im thinking of the right one 00:46:18 * Xark did have (buggy) Microsoft BASIC in ROM (the very first version in ROM). 00:46:19 http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/6805 00:46:29 I actually liked my HC05K1 dev kit. 00:46:32 it had plug in cards, a 8" floppy drive and a lovely assembler 00:46:37 I got it for fifty bucks when it was usually 500. 00:46:42 nice 00:46:48 (Motorola was trying to push the HC05 line at the time.) 00:47:05 it really sucks that Intel somehow beat Motorola 00:47:22 * Xark is tempted to play around with 6809 SoC on FPGA -> http://members.optushome.com.au/jekent/system09/index.html 00:47:25 because the 6800 series were just as smooth as silk to program 00:47:32 Intel's chips did more for less money. 00:47:47 The fact that your development costs just shot through the roof is amortized and thus effectively invisible until it's too late. 00:47:56 tp: Yes. I will never forgive Intel for the (at least) decade wasted on 80286 (when we could have been 32 bit with 68000+). 00:47:58 more cacaphony of horrible opcodes 00:48:11 Xark: well said 00:48:11 Look at that 6805 instruction set, tp. http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/6805 00:48:16 It's beautiful. 00:48:18 tp: 8088/8086 even 00:49:00 Now compare it to http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/8085a 00:49:09 Which was its closest competitor at the time in embedded space. 00:49:50 * Xark had got hold of a 68000 Programmers reference manual in 1979 (preliminary- before silicon) and was waiting to get his hands on a chip ever since. :) 00:49:50 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 00:50:14 ttmrichter: Yes, obviously not a "technical issue". 00:50:19 8085 addition opcodes: CE, 8F, 8E, 87, 86, C6. 6805 addition opcodes: F9, FB. 00:50:35 Xark: it WAS a SWTP ! 00:51:03 Xark: thank you, I've been trying to remember what it was for *years* 00:51:14 tp; :) 00:51:30 but mine must have been a late model as it had dual 8" hard sector floppies 00:51:57 tp: I used to pour over those old Kilobaud Microcomputing and Byte magazine articles about those systems (and many others) when I couldn't afford them (as a kid). :) 00:52:14 and a very nice assembler. I actually used it to write apps for the 68Hc11, even tho it was for the 6800 00:52:38 tp: Wow, floppies even. I was suffering with cassette for years (until I got access to Apple II). 00:52:42 This is, of course, the ORIGINAL sweet instruction set: http://www.textfiles.com/programming/CARDS/pdp-11 00:52:44 my STWP was old when I got it, probably around 1987 00:53:00 tp: Wow, that was old. 00:53:10 it wasnt a nice new one like in this pic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SWTPC6800_open.jpg 00:53:28 tp: I think I got my OSI-C1P in ~1978 and got access to Apple II in 1980. 00:53:38 Unfortunately that card doesn't show why it was sweet because they have the instruction opcodes in hex and to appreciate the -11 you need octal. 00:53:54 the STWP came out in 1975, and man, it would have been HOT stuff back then 00:54:10 * Xark only left his Amiga 1000 (expanded) for 386 when Linux came on the scene in 1992. :) 00:54:36 tp: It was. Expensive hot stuff (sadly). :) 00:54:37 ttmrichter: wire wrap, every techs *nightmare* 00:55:31 * Xark was into TTL and hardware before discovering computers int the late 70s. 00:55:56 I wrote a analog server controller with that SWTP, which ran on two 68HC11's, and was part of a commercial game, the whole project was just flawless 00:56:03 tp: Breadboards where very pricey back then (IIRC CSC had a lock on the market). :) 00:56:30 yeah, if anyone wonders why breadboards are such crap now, it's cause theyre dirt cheap 00:57:03 tp: Yes, the cheap ones are worthless for anything with any speed. 00:57:06 Xark: the one flaw of the STWP was all those solder plated pins you see in the pic 00:57:30 10 years later they were playing up 00:57:31 tp: In what sense? 00:57:53 tp: Ahh. The tin sockets in early Apple IIs are much worse. :) 00:57:53 solder is crap when used in connector pins 00:58:06 eww, I'll bet 00:58:47 Apple //e's are much better. 00:59:01 I'm a electronics tech, I'm not a Hacker (God like programmer), but even I miss the simple days of 6800 assembly 00:59:32 who had a Zilog RIO machine ? 00:59:39 tp: x86 does not make one want to code in assembly. ARM and some other architectures are a bit better. :) 01:00:27 true, I have *never* wanted to assemble X86 01:00:32 tp: I had very few Z80 (or any *80*) machines. I did mess with some TRS-80s for a bit. 01:00:33 the Z80 was bad enough 01:00:40 Xark, tp: I didn't have any problems with the 8086/8 myself. 01:00:51 It was a bit wonky, but not much worse than the Z80 which I actually liked. 01:00:52 I had a couple of these, about the same time as the SWTP: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/12157/Zilog-Z-80-Microcomputer-System/ 01:01:06 The x86 line got stupid with the '286 and never looked back. 01:01:11 ttmrichter: It is fine, but 8088 seemed lame for games for years (which is why I wasn't interested until Doom days). 01:01:26 Well yeah, it kind of sucked for gaming. 01:01:32 * ttmrichter ← not really a computer gamer 01:01:37 ttmrichter: I could just smell something wrong with the x86 family, some kind of inbred disease 01:01:53 ttmrichter: I remember first seeing PC when I was coding games for (IIRC) Atari 800. 01:01:56 Have I ever told you the hilarious story of how the '286 came to be as retarded as it was? 01:02:04 no ? 01:02:32 OK, the '286 started its life, in prototype form, as something nowhere near as retarded as it came to be. 01:02:35 the whole ibm pc line is retarded really 01:02:51 It was a bit stupid, but ... not as stupid as it became. 01:03:06 Because one day the engineers gave a brief demo of the chip to some higher-ups. 01:03:13 All the usual oohing and ahing ensued. 01:03:16 someone lobotomized it ? 01:03:28 Then the marketing VP said, "This looks great! How fast can it run WordPerfect?" 01:03:48 The engineers got confused looks and said, "There's no WordPerfect for the chip yet." 01:04:11 At that point the VP blew his stack and insisted that the engineers go back and make the chip compatible with existing software. 01:04:18 it wasnt back compat to the 8080 ? 01:04:18 And they had six weeks to do it. 01:04:22 Nope. 01:04:30 * Xark remembers reading an old comparison of 16-bit CPUs in Kilobaud Microcomputing with 68000 8086 and Z8000 - that article made me thing 68K was the "way forward" (at least technically, if not the market). :) 01:04:43 It had the obvious pedigree, but it was not back-compatible. 01:04:59 ahh, and back compat lobotomized it ? 01:05:08 So in six weeks the engineers basically grafted an 8086 alongside the 80286. 01:05:15 Hence "real mode" and "protected mode". 01:05:20 ahhhh 01:05:22 "Real mode" was just an 8086 with a faster clock. 01:05:29 "Protected mode" was the real core. 01:05:33 two cores ? 01:05:36 But they had to share some things, so the '286 side got lobotimized. 01:05:44 figures 01:05:44 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.50.210) joined #forth 01:05:54 Not quite two cores. It was a single core, but you could point to this part being the 8086 section and this part the 80286 section. 01:06:03 And the latter was inactive while the first was in use and vice versa. 01:06:04 Xark: I have a 8080 here in monthly use 01:06:19 Still a lot of "worthless" opcodes in x86 (that are slow and supported only for compatibility). However, x86 wins because Intel can fab transistors like no one else. :) 01:06:24 it's in a ancient HP logic analyser 01:06:53 tp: Right on. :) I have an old Franklin Spelling Ace that is using embedded Z-80. :) 01:06:55 and I have a 68000 in my digital storage scope 01:07:12 Z80 is modern compared to a 8080! 01:07:23 tp: True. :) 01:07:31 I'm amazed it's still going 01:07:43 tp: I have some 8051 cores around too, I'm sure. :) 01:08:03 Oh, that reminds me of something else that you hardware guys might find funny. :) 01:08:05 24 ch logic analyser :) 01:08:15 The 80286 was hardcore about its protected mode. 01:08:24 Once in, you couldn't get out. 01:08:30 Xark: I just bought a bunch of 8051 cores ;-) 01:08:38 You had to reset the CPU to go back to real mode. 01:09:21 ttmrichter: I remember paying $400 for a second hand 80186 (which I called a "1/2 AT") back in the day, and I was impressed by how fast it was 01:09:23 So there was no way to actually use any extra memory you had beyond your 640KB in a PC unless you went into protected mode. But you couldn't because NOBODY ACTUALLY SUPPORTED the protected mode for YEARS. 01:09:33 The '186 was a good embedded chip actually. 01:09:40 it was in a PC 01:09:46 So the IBM techies found the solution. 01:09:51 A PC with a '186? Nice. 01:09:54 I probably ran DOS on it back then 01:09:55 ttmrichter: Hehe, I remember that story. The "like switching to reverse on the freeway" to switch modes (with keyboard 8051 kludge). :) 01:10:04 it was made in australia 01:10:05 8048 even... 01:10:11 I heard it described even more comically, Xark. 01:10:40 ttmrichter: I was trying to remember the "famous" quote... 01:10:44 As the guy who explained it to me said, the CPU is put into protected mode, does some stuff, then gets hit on the head with a hammer while someone shouts into its ears "DON'T WORRY! THIS WAS ALL JUST A DREAM!" 01:10:51 Xark: the 8051 is still one of the most massively used mico cores 01:10:58 tp: Yep. 01:11:11 but Im a PIC and ARM guy thesedays 01:11:24 ttmrichter: lol 01:11:45 tp: I have done a few fun projects with $2 STC 8051 cores -> http://imgur.com/a/Jtr2C#2 01:12:04 I bought a bunch of Silicon Labs chips with 8051 cores recently, but theyre so Linux hostile, I shelved them for now 01:12:40 tp: Xark already knows this, but if I describe this to you you'll get a good laugh. 01:13:05 The CPU is "taken out of" protected mode in the PC/AT through one of the ugliest hacks and kludges in popular computing history. 01:13:27 how ? 01:13:39 Some key values (basically the segment registers and PC and stuff like that) are stored in non-volatile RAM. 01:13:49 Xark: I only see very low res pics ? 01:13:57 Often, in fact, the CMOS memory. 01:14:11 Then the 8048 keyboard controller chip is used to reset the 80286. 01:14:17 Basically the 80286 commits suicide. 01:14:23 thats unbelievable 01:14:27 The BIOS takes over on reset and checks that CMOS memory. 01:14:36 what a ugly hack 01:14:37 It uses the information in there to re-establish the real mode state that is desired. 01:14:52 I never knew any of theis 01:14:53 It took almost 500ms to context-switch from protected mode to real mode. 01:14:57 tp: Yes, software VGA on 8051 (with 1K of RAM and the tile set in flash). 01:15:11 Xark: amazing 01:15:21 a little underpowered :) 01:15:37 Im useless without my Nvidia CUDA cores 01:15:47 (some say I'm useless with them) 01:15:50 tp: Well, it was a step up from NTSC on AVR (Arduino) -> http://imgur.com/a/JO4Cq 01:16:05 Now I am doing "fancy" VGA and HDMI with a FPGA SoC. :) 01:16:58 Xark: why ? allergic to the Mali400 ? 01:17:22 (gpu) 01:17:30 tp: Well, I do software and game development all day, so it is fun to do FPGA/hardware for a hobby. 01:17:44 tp: I have done some OpenGL ES for Raspberry Pi. 01:17:46 ahhhh 01:18:00 it takes me back, wayy back 01:18:43 horrible chunky graphics were a part of my early computing career, but I'm trying to escape the memories :) 01:18:55 but I see your interest 01:19:17 tp: Hehe, well, as I mentioned I started with Atari 2600, so if you have any kind of a framebuffer it seems "fancy". :) 01:19:19 Xark: you're a Hacker ? 01:19:56 everyone here is a Hacker, except me, Im a electronics Tech, and have hung out here to watch great minds in action :) 01:20:01 tp: I suppose so. Or at least long time programmer. Not into any illegal things (and when I "liberated" software on the Apple II, it wasn't technically illegal). :) 01:20:02 The word "hacker" is so overused these days that nobody can meaningfully answer that question. 01:20:25 The best way to identify a hacker is to find the guy who doesn't self-describe as such. :) 01:20:33 I use it as we always did, hacker = very smart programmer 01:20:37 * ttmrichter ← ironically calls himself a hacker 01:21:16 yeah, apologies for my use of the term, all my words have been corrupted by the press in the last decade 01:21:22 I am fine to be called a hacker as long as not mainstream media "crack systems over Internet" meaning. :) 01:21:27 na 01:21:36 I call those people 'crackers' 01:22:08 words are being used as weapons thesedays 01:22:18 'words, the first casualty of war' 01:22:33 It seems hacker meaning is slowly restored (with hackerspaces etc.) 01:22:44 ^being 01:22:52 a person who fights invaders used to be a 'rebel', now hes a 'insurgent' 01:23:29 ttmrichter: You are obviously a hacker since you know how to make an arrow glyph. :) 01:23:31 and so on 01:23:31 Point of order: a rebel is someone who fights his own government/society (and loses). 01:23:44 A revolutionary is a rebel who succeeds. 01:23:48 hahah 01:23:58 A person who fights an invader is a resistance fighter. 01:24:16 is his own government/society a newly created one, by a invader ? 01:25:12 when a invader takes over the govt, and puts their own stooges there, does a resistance fighter become a rebel or insurgent ? 01:25:32 * tp is confused, words were simpler once 01:25:42 * Xark only slightly off-topic, crosses his fingers Snowden gets safely to Ecuador (or wherever his destination ultimately is). :) 01:26:02 excellent 01:26:33 looks like the long arm of the PRISM lacks real fingers 01:30:33 tp: If the government is a newly-created one that's where it gets sticky. 01:30:42 It would largely depend on the support said government has from society at large. 01:31:13 tp: As for Snowden, the only reason he's alive is because he made himself VERY public VERY quickly. 01:32:20 hes no dummy 01:33:06 Yep, so far he has seemed to be pretty smart. As long as his plane doesn't mysteriously crash in the ocean or something... :) 01:33:23 but honestly, did people thin the govt was using supercomputers for only 'nuclear research' ? 01:33:40 tp: Smart people, no. 01:33:42 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 01:33:43 tp: No. But now we can discuss it and add a real name. 01:33:45 Most people, probably didn't think about it. 01:34:10 tp: Without being told to don a tinfoild hat. :) 01:34:19 onve you name a demon, arent they supposed to lose some power ? 01:34:21 ;-) 01:35:02 They have. 01:35:09 You can see them running scared all over the press. 01:35:25 as tyrants and kings love power above all, the lure of PRISM would always have been far too strong to resist 01:36:08 it's their pawns, Google etc that seem most scared, the customer backlash could ruin them ? 01:36:16 The funniest part of all this to me is the timing. 01:36:22 yeah ? 01:36:57 Snowden dropped the bombshell about NSA hacking of China's computers almost literally while Obama was cloistered with China's top leadership to scold them about Chinese hacking of American computers. 01:37:07 Best. Timing. EVAR! 01:37:15 Yep. Made US look like hypocritical idiots (however, they need some of that IMO). 01:37:50 So, the USA lambasts China for spying on its citizens. About six weeks after that Snowden reveals that the USA (and the UK) spy on their citizens. 01:37:58 oh yeah, and the Chinese chairman must have high fived and done cartwheels ? 01:38:09 Then the USA hosts China's leadership to lecture them about hacking of American companies. 01:38:23 all, innocent like ... 01:38:25 And WHILE THAT IS IN PROGRESS Snowden reveals that the USA has been doing this to Chinese computers for ages. 01:38:28 ... poor us 01:38:55 thats kinda good timing 01:39:53 * ttmrichter knows a couple of people in the "hacker gangs" that the US government claims work directly for the Chinese military. 01:40:14 AFAIK they don't get any money from the Chinese military. 01:40:18 They do it for the lulz. 01:40:32 I'm sure some of their members "suggest" targets based on Chinese military priorities. 01:40:33 so now the US govt are claiming that PRISM has allowed them to save 10,000 fluffy white kittens, prevent 50 dastardly acts of terroism, and repel two invasions of body snatchers from the planet Tharg 01:40:42 But to basically call them mercenary hackers is ... incorrect. 01:41:15 it's all in the corruption of words I was referring to earlier 01:41:23 tp: Yep. The rubber stamp court keeps them fully under control. 01:41:48 yes, the secret, ubknown, shaddowy, rubber stamp court keeps them fully under control. 01:42:10 ;who are these guys ? .... we cant tell you 01:42:19 tp: You want more corruption of words? 01:42:19 ;what are their names ? .... we cant tell you 01:42:24 noooo 01:42:36 * Xark feels sorry for future NSA admins now needing "buddy system" and no doubt extra PITA procedures. :) 01:42:37 I'm swimming in a world of wordly corruption 01:42:44 tp: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/06/21/official-says-water-complaints-act-of-terrorism/2445071/ 01:43:12 ttmrichter: Yeah, WTF department... 01:43:26 I'm being Super Serial here: a town (or was it county?) official HONESTLY and WITHOUT IRONY said that complaining about the water service was an act of terrorism. 01:43:27 only in the USA 01:43:48 it's harder for me, every day I commit acts of 'terryism' 01:44:29 Oh, wait! This was STATE level officials! :-o 01:44:33 Man, that's scary. 01:44:39 * Xark was (not so) amused at the blatant "least untruth" comment from the bozo Clapper to congress. 01:44:55 --- quit: tangentstorm (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.2) 01:45:00 I'm not sure what that means, Xark. :) 01:45:06 * ttmrichter doesn't read news much any longer. 01:45:32 ttmrichter: NSA directory caught in a lie by Snowden -> http://www.salon.com/2013/06/12/clapper_on_nsa_congress_comments_i_gave_the_lest_untruth/ 01:45:46 (great photo too :) 01:46:41 lol 01:47:13 my girlfriend sometimes refers to her ex husband who once told her that 'I have never deliberately lied to you' 01:47:27 Heh 01:48:06 * Xark apologizes for annoying pop-ups on that link (that story is all over). 01:48:21 shes a writer and uses words like killing tools 01:51:45 I guess NSA people will get medals soon for "telling the least untruth" 01:52:33 Ministry of peace. 01:56:23 --- quit: DocPlatypus (Read error: Operation timed out) 02:05:27 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 02:06:06 Hey guys, can I suggest joining ##embedded for those times when we want to talk about embedded systems without necessarily invoking Forth? 02:06:12 That channel could use a little TLC. :( 02:06:41 ok 02:06:53 are there two "##" ? 02:06:58 Yes. 02:06:58 and if so why ? 02:07:06 what does that mean ? 02:07:09 Some weird shit in Freenode's regulations. 02:07:13 oh 02:07:43 I meant to say earlier, when you Hackers were chatting flat out, 'we never do this in the electronics world' 02:08:00 Never do what? 02:08:01 Talk? 02:08:08 electronics people seem to be all introverts 02:08:11 yeah 02:08:19 Bogdan (the tech in one of my earliest jobs) was alway talking. 02:08:23 all lost inside their own hardware worlds 02:08:24 s/alway/always/ 02:08:33 some are exceptions :) 02:08:49 He could talk WHILE he was staring through magnifying glasses and hand-drilling holes to cut traces on layer 3 of 6. 02:08:52 I'm off to join ##embedded 02:09:04 of course :) 02:10:44 * Xark talk Forth not sorry 02:15:46 Xark: This was honestly not an attempt to scold people for not talking about Forth! 02:15:55 * ttmrichter is as guilty as anybody else here for this. :) 02:16:10 I'm trying to breathe life into a broader channel. 02:16:24 #forth is a cool channel 02:16:46 It is, yes. 02:16:53 Mostly because I'm heare. :) 02:17:14 :) 02:19:19 --- quit: cataska (Remote host closed the connection) 02:22:44 --- join: cataska (~cataska@210.64.6.233) joined #forth 02:36:51 --- join: proteus_guy (~proteusgu@180.183.43.189) joined #forth 02:40:20 heare, here! 02:40:33 --- quit: proteusguy (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 02:55:53 So, name check: a hobbyist-oriented Forth dongle: is the name "Trilobite" a good choice? 02:56:39 I could even name specific releases after specific branches of the trilobite family. :D 03:12:23 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net) joined #forth 03:12:54 --- join: nighty^ (~nighty@tin51-1-82-226-147-104.fbx.proxad.net) joined #forth 03:12:55 no :) 03:13:19 I think it's a poor choice, but whatta I know ? 03:13:48 but if no one is interested in Forth, it probably wont matter 03:18:03 but I don't care, it's not a issue to me, I'll still be very happy to do the hardware etc as previously said, no matter what you call it :) 04:22:28 forthlobite You have forth and you can put more stuff to lobes :) and what is more irritating than google giving unrelated fossil pages for computer program? 04:24:06 hehe 04:24:59 dongleforth 04:25:21 easyforth 04:25:26 eastdongle 04:25:31 easydongle 04:26:06 goforth 04:26:42 fortharm 04:27:08 fortharmgle 05:06:20 --- quit: proteus_guy (Remote host closed the connection) 05:19:17 Quadlobite? 05:27:32 OK, you win tp. 05:27:39 Sanyechong. 05:27:49 No longer to be called Trilobite. 05:35:57 OK, solution to the Google thing: Trilobyte 05:35:59 :P 06:24:16 --- quit: obobo (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 06:25:33 --- join: obobo (~obobo@dyn-76-75-122-30.nexicom.net) joined #forth 06:25:40 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 06:53:30 yunfan: Remember your charmingly naive thought that western governments answered to the people? http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/14/1216158/-In-Wisconsin-Silence-Will-Not-Be-Tolerated 06:53:40 Enjoy the read. :) 07:15:29 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 07:17:18 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> Nisstyre 07:19:35 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 07:30:49 ttmrichter: i am reading articles about survival 07:31:16 i just got know many ideas i have considered is just a common sense to those professional survivals 07:31:45 --- quit: newcup (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 07:53:20 --- join: JDat (JDat@89.248.91.5) joined #forth 07:56:16 --- join: Tod-Work (~thansmann@50-202-143-210-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 08:04:16 --- quit: Nisstyre (Quit: Leaving) 08:42:22 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 09:08:25 --- join: newcup (newcup@peruna.fi) joined #forth 09:22:56 --- nick: Adeolos -> Adeon 09:34:46 --- nick: ASau``` -> ASau 09:40:44 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-76-102-52-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 09:41:12 DaDaDOSPrompt: you can draw parallels between Forth and Krivine machine, if you want it. 09:41:21 DaDaDOSPrompt: at least you can try. 09:41:58 interesting 09:42:36 And from there you can jump further to lambda calculi. 09:43:01 The main problem for Forth lovers is that it isn't Forth at all. 09:43:18 ah 09:43:22 You have to introduce storage mechanism in some way. 09:43:26 ah 09:43:35 makes sense to me 09:43:44 Which means linear types or something of the kind. 09:44:09 If you ever tried to study it, you know what it feels. 09:45:13 The closes result I know of, is Xavier Leroy's paper on implementation of Caml virtual machine. 09:45:18 One of them. 09:45:46 It is good reading independently of Forth, I recommend it, if you haven't read it yet. 09:51:52 Anyway, I don't think that you're going to like Forth very much if you like fundamentals. 10:08:38 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 10:20:50 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@ppp-115-87-208-167.revip4.asianet.co.th) joined #forth 11:31:17 --- join: rixard (~rixard@81-235-139-119-no63.tbcn.telia.com) joined #forth 11:34:35 --- join: ASau` (~user@p5797F3AC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 11:36:30 --- quit: proteusguy (Remote host closed the connection) 11:38:05 --- quit: ASau (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 11:38:36 --- nick: ASau` -> ASau 11:43:51 --- join: Tod-Autojoined (~Tod@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 11:44:02 --- quit: TodPunk (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 12:03:39 --- join: DocPlatypus (~skquinn@98.195.26.149) joined #forth 12:15:00 --- join: epicmonkey (~epicmonke@188.134.41.113) joined #forth 12:45:09 --- quit: kulp (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 12:48:13 --- join: kulp (~kulp@unaffiliated/kulp) joined #forth 12:55:43 --- quit: goingretro (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 13:01:56 --- join: goingretro (~kbmaniac@host81-129-184-151.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) joined #forth 13:30:09 --- quit: kulp (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 13:34:47 --- join: kulp (~kulp@unaffiliated/kulp) joined #forth 13:47:45 --- quit: epicmonkey (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 14:00:43 --- join: fantazo (~fantazo@213.129.230.10) joined #forth 14:32:25 --- quit: KipIngram (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 14:33:36 --- join: KipIngram (~KipIngram@85.17.255.186) joined #forth 14:43:23 --- quit: JDat () 15:19:27 --- quit: fantazo (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 15:36:37 --- quit: Tod-Work (Quit: Leaving) 16:17:44 --- join: RodgerTheGreat (~rodger@50-198-177-185-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) joined #forth 16:33:18 --- quit: mtm (Quit: Leaving...) 17:20:13 --- join: Nisstyre-laptop (~yours@oftn/member/Nisstyre) joined #forth 17:24:47 --- nick: Nisstyre-laptop -> Nisstyre 17:31:52 Morning 17:38:42 heyhey 17:39:32 I actually like the name "Trilobite" or "Trilobyte", I also think that like the "Arduino", it's doesnt actually help anyone understand what it is, but thats cool, it's only a name 17:40:35 Good morning Mr. and Mrs. East Asian Hegemony, and all the ships at sea! 17:42:14 I have been thinking about a StrongARM Forth device called a StiffDongle. It seems to all fit together. 17:42:32 hahah 17:43:08 it's all really a vapordongle at the moment 17:54:58 --- quit: nighty^ (Quit: Disappears in a puff of smoke) 18:31:48 --- join: tangentstorm (~michal@108-218-151-22.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net) joined #forth 19:09:18 --- join: mtm (~mtm@c-24-130-130-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) joined #forth 19:35:19 --- quit: cfjdet (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 19:44:04 --- join: cfjdet (~androirc@pD9E25522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #forth 21:18:15 --- join: proteusguy (~proteusgu@180.183.43.189) joined #forth 21:25:20 if you implement a forth in thumb it could be called Fingers 21:25:45 hahh 21:26:12 how about 'allthumbs' 21:28:18 I'm still calling it Trilobyte. 21:28:18 :P 21:28:30 :) 21:28:41 I just want a cute mascot. 21:28:46 And I think trilobites are cool. 21:28:46 Im calling it Vaporbyte 21:28:54 Well, fair call for now. :) 21:28:58 But I am actually progressing on it. 21:29:13 For the hardware side, did you see where I mentioned it has an SDIO interface? 21:29:21 How expensive is it to add a MicroSD reader? 21:29:26 trilobites are cool, and one day they may rise up and become our new overlords ? 21:29:36 Nah, they went extinct. :( 21:29:44 Now our overlords will be cockroaches. 21:29:45 a clever ploy ? 21:29:46 COCKROACHES! 21:30:06 "cockarm" ? 21:30:36 * ttmrichter has a flashback to a TERRIBLE joke from a British radio series. 21:30:53 the price of a MicroSD slit I guess, but they also take up a lot of space 21:31:14 Those are the two prices I'm interested in, yes. :) 21:32:09 if you keep adding stuff, you'll have to call it a trilobrick 21:32:13 Woman gets news from her doctor that her newborn son was born without eyelids. "That's terrible!" she cries out. Doctor says, "Oh, it's not all that bad. When we do the circumcision we'll just re-purpose it and construct new eyelids for him." "What?! No way! He'll be cock-eyed!" "Yeah, true, but think of the foresight he'd have!" 21:32:32 tp: This is a consultation, not a specification. :) I'm interested in what the costs are. 21:32:40 hahah, english jokes ... 21:32:52 So far we've got a USB→serial bridge, a CPU and some kind of external connector. 21:33:03 Oh, and a tri-color LED. 21:34:12 ttmrichter: the joke assumes the woman will want her son circumcised to begin with, which is increasingly becoming the exception, not the rule. if for no other reason, this is a joke quite a few people will find offensive 21:34:25 probably at $16 - 20 inc a pcb so far 21:34:25 So is a MicroSD slot plausible, tp? 21:35:00 hard to say ttmrichter size for a dongle is so limited 21:35:02 DocPlatypus: oh no, an offensive joke?! 21:36:21 sorry, had to say something. I find the practice of male genital mutilation (otherwise referred to as circumcision) disturbing and believe it needs to be ended. even if we put that part aside, the puns aren't even that funny 21:37:15 Actually you didn't have to say something unless you have some very bizarre form of psychological compulsion. You wanted to say something. There is a difference. 21:37:57 As for the rest, I do believe that I clearly (IN ALL CAPS NO LESS) identified the joke as being terrible. 21:38:12 I even referred to a "flash-back" which is not a term generally used to recount pleasant events. 21:38:23 Well, to say nothing would indicate that I am willing to accept it. Which I am not. 21:38:32 So not only are you a pompous ass who can't distinguish between "had to" and "wanted to", you're also incapable of reading fairly clear English. 21:40:04 ttmrichter: I personally think this channel is a wonderful place without the terrible jokes. Just because you have a terrible joke and feel it's okay to tell it and label it a terrible joke, doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. 21:40:24 Ah, the pomposity continues. Thankfully IRC clients have tools for this. 21:40:35 when you tell terrible jokes, the terrorists win 21:40:43 * tangentstorm hasn't even read the joke yet ;) 21:40:50 Don't. It's a terrible joke. 21:40:52 I am perfectly capable of reading fairly clear English, having learned English as a first language and lived my entire life in an English speaking country. (Unless you have a name for the language spoken in the US that is not "English" of course...) 21:40:55 In reaction to a terrible name. 21:41:31 some people call it American 21:41:46 well, some people don't know the difference between soccer and football, either 21:41:48 or, uh, Spanish depending on how you interpret your statement 21:41:49 what can I say 21:42:17 yeah. about Spanish, I thought we settled this in 1836 (in the case of Texas)? that Texas isn't part of Mexico? 21:42:30 we still don't have a national language 21:42:32 if nothing else we settled this in a war following that 21:42:36 as convenient as having one might be 21:42:58 the Mexican-American war in 1846 or so 21:44:17 perhaps we should have a national language. though I wonder if the world would be a better place today had our forefathers decided to write all our laws in German 21:44:22 which, btw, they almost did 21:45:01 hard to say if it would've been better 21:47:59 and how's this for timing 21:48:12 one of my friends sent me this link right in the middle of my typing all that 21:48:28 http://www.fluentin3months.com/no-usa-for-me/ -- which to be fair, some of these are things I'm not too crazy about in the US myself 21:52:58 I like how he starts off by saying we're too sensitive and then takes offense at the tiniest fucking thing 21:52:59 s 21:54:35 RodgerTheGreat: This is why I have very little patience for the butthurt brigade and their waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahmbulances. 21:54:43 I'm pretty fucking quick on /ignore these days. :) 21:55:23 well that's your prerogative dude 21:58:47 "dude" ! ... thems fightin werds! tp oils his rusty .45 Colt ... 21:59:41 as in a dude ranch not as in a casual noun for referring to humans 21:59:48 obviously 21:59:59 obviously 22:00:00 :) 22:01:14 * tp has no idea what a dude ranch is, we only have 'cattle stations' dry and sparse 22:02:05 --- join: Bahman (~Bahman@2.50.50.204) joined #forth 22:10:39 Well, tp, if the dude ranches you're talking about are anything like the ones that existed in Alberta way back when, it's where yuppies go to pretend they're cowboys. 22:12:58 I couldn't find an Alberta reference any longer, but http://bcguestranches.com/ gives you the idea. 22:15:50 looks good to me! 22:16:05 don't think I can afford it tho 22:24:27 --- nick: Tod-Autojoined -> TodPunk 22:46:45 Just watch City Slickers and be done... :-) 22:46:48 --- part: DocPlatypus left #forth 22:47:19 --- quit: RodgerTheGreat (Quit: RodgerTheGreat) 23:03:20 ttmrichter: aha, you got many edible trees in canada 23:05:29 We do? 23:05:37 * ttmrichter can't ever recall eating a tree. 23:07:28 yes i got know that easten pine bark is edible 23:07:41 and it has many Vc 23:08:45 Ugh. 23:08:52 I've eaten the sap. 23:08:57 I wouldn't want to chew that bark. 23:10:23 its cool for young kids for chewing bark 23:53:15 --- quit: sirdancealot (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 23:59:31 --- join: sirdancealot (~sirdancea@98.82.broadband5.iol.cz) joined #forth 23:59:59 --- log: ended forth/13.06.24